Verbose Mafia 2 - Post or Perish (Game Over)

[the silent speaker]

By "the other three" I meant "the other three people implicated by the Hypothesis" paragraph preceding. To wit, SpamWise, Commodore Amazing and VitaminR, who

if

my speculation on mikeburnfire should prove true would be indicated as his scum allies. Again, I have no proof as of yet that the Hypothesis is

right

, but without reason to think it

wrong

I will continue to follow it until it fails me or I get something better. I reiterate that I feel mikeburnfire's commment is voteworthy, whether the Hypothesis has validity or no.

Naturally there could be five scum, or only three, and then of necessity the Hypothesis is wrong, incomplete or both, but examining the nominations at end of day led me to those particular individuals. (Just two scum or as many as six seems quite unlikely, in my opinion; whatever game Mr. Grey and his associates are playing, I somehow feel sure they intend for all sides to have a fair chance at it.)

[SpamWise]

Well no, I felt that the arguments for nominating mikeburnfire were tenuous at best. Although I never explicitly stated this, I do not think he is a killer. Of course, I do not know that he is not a killer for sure, nor do I know that he is one. It is entirely possible that Commodore Amazing and VitaminR know such things however. It also possible that none of us are killers, and in fact all the killers were on mikeburnfire's nomwagon, perhaps to create some associative distance between they and mikeburnfire.

Turbovolver, you accused me of being a liar. Now I am a "possible liar." Well everyone here is a "possible liar." At least to me. I have no way of knowing whether or not what you or anyone says is truth or not. And you have admitted yourself that you are a liar. If anyone has any reason to lie whatsoever, it is scum. I am going to vote for you, logic would dictate that it is in a killer's best interests to lie. I would like for more time to think about this, however thanks to Mr Grey I am short-changed in my currency.

Let us hope that logic wins over my feelings this time.

Vote:Turbovolver

[Turbovolver]

I'm pretty sure my arguments aren't hard to follow, Pooky. I notice the way you said I've misrepresented things, but when asked to point out these things you make reference to a previous comment of yours that holds no mention of misrepresentation.

It's painful trying to respond to your arguments without being able to quote them properly, but I'm pretty sure they are terrible. Most of the town sees that I am not a killer, just a rather crazed good guy, and I presume the innocent ones amongst us who are voting me are doing so because of the way I suggested I had an ability that I did not, which some would consider lying. Anything else you try to bring up is likely to be spin. Oh hell, I will consider them, and deal with them in a seperate post.

SpamWise, I was hoping you could explain yourself. You are only a "possible liar" because there's still quite possibly an honest explanation for things. Attacking my point against you on semantics I think is rather suspicious, though. I haven't yet seen a solid statement explaining why the two things you said are not contradictory.

Mathcam, I don't recall backing down on my stance that you are likely to be a killer, but if I have then yes that would look rather suspicious. I provided a few comments that lead me to this conclusion in my big speech about our nomination phase. Hmm, I suppose you could be referring to my initial nomination of you that I removed and then later put back on. Back then it was only a mere hunch, so when better things came along it was natural to remove you for the time being... that doesn't mean I stopped thinking you were potentially evil.


To all the people that understand that I'm not a killer - you are correct. I think it is inevitable that I die, but by being a simple good man who is very vocal I am sure I will provide much useful information once my alignment has been confirmed. And the good folk among you will not have lost much.

[SpamWise]

You are referring to this statement?

"Later, he says he could "hazard a guess" to what I'm thinking, and follows up my nomination. Considering he later mentioned he thought I had extra information, this seems like an outright lie. "

How is this contradictory? The guess I was hazarding (which turned out to be wrong) was that you did indeed have extra information. There were no two contradictory lines of thinking, they were both one and the same. The difference being I stated them in two completely different ways. Implicitly and explicitly.

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

Turbovolver: 7 (Cogito Ergo Sum, Fiasco, Kelly Chen, PookyTheMagicalBear, SpamWise, Tamuz, VitaminR)
DrippingGoofball: 4 (Adele, Fritzler, Seol, Thok)
Fritzler: 3 (mathcam, mikeburnfire, petroleumjelly)
Adele: 2 (Commodore Amazing, DrippingGoofball
Cogito Ergo Sum: 1 (LoudmouthLee)
mathcam: 1 (Turbovolver)
mikeburnfire: 1 (the silent speaker)

Players Nominated: Adele, Cogito Ergo Sum, DrippingGoofball, Fritzler, Kelly Chen, mathcam, mikeburnfire, Tamuz, Turbovolver

Mod Note:

The end of Day is in approximately 11 hours.

[Turbovolver]

For Pooky:

I didn't expect you to have

solid

suspicious during the nomination phase, it appears you have misunderstood what I said. But I don't recall hearing

anything

of your suspicions during the nomination phase. I suppose you nominated people, but you were certainly not one of the more memorable people among us in that regard.

Why would I take Tamuz's word for something? Because to blatantly misrepresent the game state is a lie that is easily caught, and so should never be done (regardless of whether he is a killer or not). I would not expect him to be lying about Adele's nominations. Besides, I said I would only trust his explanation until I'd worked out where my own suspicions lay - you calling this behaviour suspicious is both perplexing and makes me suspicious of you.

The discussions during the nomination phase have passed, and are probably largely irrelevant now. It doesn't matter how you act

after

you've been called on lurking - no matter what your alignment is you'd be trying to save your position. We have to judge based on the behaviour

at the time

.

As for the supposed points against me I failed to address, I will go over what you said and address it again. I'm pretty sure you're just full of it when you say that though, especially considering you also mentioned misrepresentations which you haven't been able to quantify.

I've already given reasons behind my suspicions of you and Mathcam. And I was saying that the actual "tell" was rubbish, not that TSS voting based on a tell was rubbish.

[Turbovolver]

Yes SpamWise, that is all I required. I still think that saying you could hazard a guess to what I'm thinking sounds more like you follow the logic I used, but it is quite possible that your explanation of events is legitimate.

I'm sorry that I am speaking so much, but there is a lot to say. My next comment will address the points Pooky made against me that I supposedly did not address. Hopefully this time he will find it satisfactorily.

[Turbovolver]

Wait, there really is nothing there. I will try to summarise Pooky's post, to demonstrate to you all how weak his arguments are:


The first part is a minor misunderstanding.

Says that at the start of the game he didn't have suspicions, so focused on strategy. Fair enough, but it's not like the nomination phase lasted a long enough time to form suspicions or anything. (That's sarcasm).

Then he summarises events. Says that Adele's behaviour has been consistent. I've already said I didn't check, and simply trusted Tamuz while I was unsure of where I myself stood.

Says I need to point out which discussions he skipped out on. Just look back at the whole nomination phase... apart from saying "here's a good strategy" he doesn't really talk much. His sum contribution (apart from general strategy):

At one stage he says "I'm suspicious of CES for being on both secondary wagons". Then in his last post of the nomination phase, he says he has only nominated one person because the others were already on the lynching block - Turbovolver and MikeBurnFire. There is no reasoning provided for these suspicions.

That's it.


His last point is that I myself did some "fluffing" of my posts. Well I'm sorry for roleplaying... it CANNOT be argued that I haven't contributed. In fact I've hardly been able to control my excitement.

[Turbovolver]

OK, so I just realised that it was in post 273 that Pooky says I misrepresented and failed to address points. When I ask where, he points me back to post 273. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm sorry Pooky, did I fail to address the points you made IN THE POST that you accused me of not addressing points?

He raises some points in post 273 (which I addressed, and have again to ensure he's happy), but never in post 273 does he actually point out any places I'd earlier failed to respond or misrepresented him (he just claims that I have without evidence). That evidence is still AWOL.

Remember what I said about making accusations like that and being unable to justify them, Pooky? Yeah, you haven't been able to justify them. You are a killer, almost definitely.

Malcolm X has spoken. (Note that he is one paranoid dude, so he's probably wrong).

Turbovolver laughs sadly.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Actually Turbovolver, I had made those points before and had decided to collect them and present them again because you had avoided them earlier. I specifically collected them so that it would be easier for you to find them and address them. Yet you have continued to avoid addressing my points against you!

I have stated this all before but am restating it yet again because you seem to have a hearing problem.

When I accused you of failing to do what you promised in terms of reviewing the thread before making your vote and instead making a vote based on "trusting Tamuz" You fired back at me for "accusing you of not contributing in the game"

This means that you took my accusation of failing to do as you've promised in terms of reviewing the thread, and misinterpreted that as me accusing you of not contributing in the game. I have NEVER accused you of not contributing in this game and for you to fire back at me along those lines signifies that you are twisting my argument against you.


When I told you that you had missed Adele's earlier comments about lynch block maximization and that being the reason behind her nominations, you turned that around and told me that you were voting her for her nominations and not her comments and told me to pay attention.

Her nominations follow

exactly what she's commented that she would be doing

. If you had a problem with those nominations of hers you should've countered her points earlier when she first raised them!
When you were confronted with this, you quickly turned tail and started passing the buck as fast as you could to Tamuz. I've yet to get a satisfactory answer to my earlier query which I will repeat to you yet again sir.

Why would you take Tamuz's word for it instead of actually looking it up yourself? Voting doesn't even count for anything until Friday, so what do YOU have to gain by voting before you've had a chance to actually evaluate his argument?

Your answer so far to this question seems to be entirely based upon an assumption that Tamuz(or anybody else) would NOT lie. Why would you assume this? Why would you basically proxy your vote off to another player without actually figuring out where your suspicions lay if you were just going to move your vote to whomever you found suspicious later? The only votecount that will decide the lynch is the one on Friday! It seems very much so that you were trying to drum up support for a bandwagon while passing the buck onto Tamuz!

I find your postings full of rampant paranoia and hysteria, coupled with a very sharp willingness to attack the quality of my arguments. What is the point of saying that my arguments are "probably terrible"? Attacks like that don't convince anyone who's read my arguments already, why make broad general attacks on me such as that?

Pooky sighs, exhausted with arguing with such a crazed fellow, he falls back upon the palm tree and rests his head under the cool shade. Gazing longly at the her soft hair gliding along the wind, he falls asleep knowing that it's all worth it.

[Turbovolver]

Pooky, I specifically went back and addressed all of your points for you. In TWO sepearate little speeches for you. Why you continue to accuse me of failing to address your points is beyond me.

If you want me to just xerox all of my points again to respond to this latest post of yours, then I suppose I will.

Later, before the deadline hopefully, I will go through and respond to this latest attack of yours... though I fail to understand how repeating points that I specifically went out of my way to address will achieve anything.

[SpamWise]

By my sundial we have roughly nine hours left. Your address have to be very soon, otherwise you will be lynched. It is interesting that Pooky states you have not addressed all of his points. I am also of this belief. In my humble opinion you haven't really addressed my points, rather you've come up with accusations against me. Then you have conceded ground on your offensive defence. Draw what conclusions from that statement what you will, but that is how I perceive things between you and I.

[Fiasco]

A few people have provoked ticking from my Geiger Counter of Evil lately. (It's more accurate than either Scumdar or Sense of Smell.)

First, there's DrippingGoofball. As I understand it, she claims she believed the top three nominees would all die, and this explains some of her strange behavior near the nomination deadline. That's an implausible claim as it is, but I couldn't help but observe recently that, even though Goofball supposedly thought she would die in hours, she didn't reveal her role abilities. Under her misinterpretation of the rules, that could easily have saved her (though obviously given the real rules it would have been the wrong move). Of course, it's quite possible that someone would choose to name-claim but not role-claim in such a situation... but combined with her breaking her restriction in the beginning, this leads me to suspect she may be lying about being Ingersoll. (On the other hand, doing so might risk a counterclaim by the real Ingersoll, so I don't know what to think about her.)

Then there are Turbovolver and Adele, who both described Turbovolver's statements as merely "misleading". Turbovolver said he had a special ability, and said we would see its effects in TSS's posts. He knew this was false when he said it. That's not "close to lying", that's undeniably lying. Of course, whether it's the kind of lying that falls under "lynch all liars" is very debatable, but combined with the rest of Turbovolver's behavior, my vote is still happiest on him. I'll check in (and maybe say something) one more time before the day ends; my vote may or may not change then.

Violent Malcolms like Verbose Mafia?

[mathcam]

We have little choice at this point. While I'm not convinced about Turbo's scuminess, lynching Turbo is way better than a no lynch. We'll get lots of info, and there's obviously the chance that he's scum. My vote makes 8. We need 11, so let's get moving with those last three votes.

Unvote: Fritzler, Vote: Turbovolver.

Cam

[Turbovolver]

I am torn as to whether I should put a vote on myself if no other options present themselves (which is looking quite likely).

While I know I am innocent and so shouldn't die, the town would get a lot of information from the death.


SpamWise, why is it "interesting" that Pooky says I haven't addressed his concerns if you are also of that belief?

I do not expect to save myself from lynch if there's only nine hours remaining. All I hope to do is point out how terrible Pooky's arguments are. Whether that makes him a killer or not I don't know. I'll have a look back at your comments, SpamWise, and see if I missed anything there.

And the race card deal was certainly not an outright lie, as I never gave any specifics, but it was entirely misleading and I can see exactly where people who didn't like it are coming from.

[DrippingGoofball]

This Turbovolver bandwagon disturbs me greatly. I can sense Turbo's frustration in every line he writes. From personal experience, I am inclined to believe that someone who invests so much time, effort and care in defending himself is usually innocent. And as it often happens in such cases where the innocent have nothing but the fire of Truth in their bellies as their motive, there will be people that will pile on the accusations, the semantics, etc. Turbovolver's verbose, passionate, and defiant defense of himself is only more ammunition for the evil ones. A few innocents inevitably follow the twisted path thus created, overcome by the momentum engineered by others that seem to have an intense interest in stoning Turbovolver.

I am not at all surprised to see Pooky chiming in on this one. The very fact that Pooky wants Turbo gone, nearly confirms Turbo's innocence to me.

I don't know... but I don't like this one bit. You can count me out of the Turbovolver bandwagon entirely. I'd rather slaughter no one, than risk hurting someone who smells so bloody innocent.

[Turbovolver]

OK, For Pooky Yet Again



You said I was holding back, "putting one foot in the water" or something like that. I understood that as saying that I wasn't contributing. Indeed if I had simply piggybacked Tamuz's thoughts and not posted my own later, that would be not contributing.

YOU are the one misrepresenting here... my original reply was that I simply asked you to be patient and I'd post my own thoughts. You responded by saying it was suprising that I'd missed Adele's comments and that was suspicious (given I had been so active), and I responded saying it wasn't Adele's comments that were important - because Tamuz's reason was something about the way her nominations went.

See? Nowhere did I continue to go on about you saying I wasn't contributing. I never "twisted your argument against you".



OK, your next point is that the vote for Adele was invalid. Maybe it was... as I've said I was following Tamuz and left it behind when I'd had time to come to my own conclusions. I don't see much wrong with that.

You say I haven't given you a satisfactory answer for trusting Tamuz. As I've said I think twice already, if he lied about who she nominated then he would be caught in a second. So he must of been telling the truth when he said "Adele, who was nominating Fiasco, unnominates the man, and nominates along the same path as Fiasco himself."

He would never get away with lying about that, and it sounded a decent reason for a vote at that moment, so I went along with it.

I've already explained why I could trust Tamuz wasn't lying. Because to do so would be suicide.

Tamuz pointed out something that looked rather scummy in Adele, and given that I hadn't reached my own conclusions yet it seemed natural to go along with it for the moment. There's nothing suspicious about that, no matter how much you go on about "final votecounts" and the like.



You also say you think I've been trying to further the Adele bandwagon without any blame. Please explain why vote isn't on her and why all of my main points are against players not named Adele?


Why would I say your arguments are probably terrible? Because I think they are. I'm town, and you are trying to say I'm a killer. Therefore, your arguments are probably crappy. By definition. Of course, whether other people (who don't know I'm a good guy) want to think the same about your arguments is their own perogative.

[Turbovolver]

OK, Now I will address all of SpamWise's points, including those I already defended against prevoiusly...


You said the way I switched my vote from Adele to Pooky was "devious". I think you were talking about how I composed my thoughts as I went along, finally deciding on a vote even though when I started speaking I had not. I don't see why that is suspicious.


You say you don't like how I didn't initially state my reasons for nominating Mathcam just after the crash. I've explained this, and if you are not happy with my two reasons (1. It was a hunch, 2. A bit of mystery might have got things going), then there is nothing more I can do to convince you.

You vote me for misleading the town. I cant defend that.




Well, that's all that you've accused me of... at least since the start of the voting phase (I didn't check before then, so sorry if those were the points you referring to).

I'd already been over all of those points previously... why are people so keen to tell me I haven't responded to things that I clearly have?

[Turbovolver]

What can I say? It's called Verbose Mafia for a reason.

Turbovolver winks, but is clearly wearired.

DrippingGoofball, I don't know what to make of your comment. You see my true character, but you suggest my recent verbosity has only been making me look worse (well, gives the potential to our killers to make me look worse). I didn't think my arguments were so terrible. But I've hardly been myself recently.

Turbovolver sighs.

If I am chosen to die, I wish the best of luck to the good people amongst you. Never become lax in your hunt for the murderers!

[Fritzler]

Turbo we're really sorry about htis. we love you man. We blame the intoxication for voting you. Wedon't think you're scum, but we think you're better then a no lynch.

Fritz looks pained (and drunk). He presses a button. Turbobvolver winces as another vote is added.

unvote, vote: Turbo

[Turbovolver]

That is perfectly acceptable. As I said a while ago, I am saddened by a world still so dominated by prejudice. Not to mention I can do little to help you guys root out your killers, beyond simply mouthing-off with my suspicions. I wish you all the best of luck in your search.

NEVER FORGET MALCOLM X!

[Thok]

I am not convinced that Turbovolver's behavior has been scummy rather than merely silly; however at this point you seem to be advocating yourself as a safe lynch, and I would appreciate the information of knowing your identity. By current count, even with my assistance, you still need one more person to agree before your goose is cooked; moreover, even after reaching 11 votes town may choose to unvote you if they disapprove of your impending death.

I still admit dismay about Mr. (Mrs?) DrippingGoofball, even in unvoting her. If Turbovolver does turn out to be scum, I am distrustful of our claimed orator, but I feel the the self proclaimed Ingersoll could still be evil even if Malcolm X is not, mainly because I find Ingersoll to be an obscure character. This may merely reflect a flaw in my assesment of American history, however.

Mr. Turbovolver, I feel your efforts have been interesting, even if not necessarily beneficial, and if you are a good man I hope that your deity is willing to supply you with virgins or raisins (whichever reading of the Koran you take to be true).

unvote DrippingGoofball, vote Turbovolver

[Turbovolver]

People need to know I was a good guy. Given my obscure behaviour, nobody can really safely make that assumption. So let's make it a sure thing! And avoid no-lynch for definite.

Unvote: Mathcam
Vote: Turbovolver

In case anybody is curious, I had to have the letter X in every post. That's why I made that "follow my example" comment at the end of one of my earlier posts.

[Seol]

I am disappointed with the way today has resolved, however I suppose I have only myself to blame as I have not been as alert as I either intended or pledged to be. I don't find Turbovolver's behaviour with the "playing the race card" thing suspicious today - yes, it was a lie, however that does

not

automatically make it scummy, and I am casting a sideways glance at thosewho leap to that conclusion to support their argument. The issue here, however, is that given just those two alternatives, it is better to lynch than not to lynch. By my reckoning, we now have sufficient votes for lynch - that said, it never hurts to make sure, hence my vote.

However, I am most dissatisfied with DrippingGoofball - the "defence" of citing her unprompted claim is both inconclusive (I have no reason to believe that the claim is true, nor do I have any reason to believe that the claim is likely to be either innocent or scum) and

irrelevant

in respect of the arguments that I, at least, was voting her for. I am getting an impression that she is working to an agenda here, and that always disturbs me.

So to clarify, my vote is one of pragmatism not idealism, and does not reflect my current feelings at this time.

unvote, vote: Turbovolver

[VitaminR]

I really don't like that self-vote. If Turbo is town, accepting a lynch is never a good idea. I don't think it gives THAT much information. Not enough to justify giving up, anyway.

After all, your suspicions from a confirmed point of view do not bring us much. In practical terms, they are not worth more than an individual player's suspicions as anyone can analyse the thread from the certainty of at least one player's alignment.