Mini 1186: Repo! The Genetic Mafia - Game Over!

[Medicated Lain]

I stated exactly why I felt wary. As far as I can recall from this game, you never once before that post above had posted anything about knowing Trip's play, you just continued to attack and call lynch on him, based on his play-style which you have witnessed as non-scum behavior from him before. Meanwhile it was Trip that brought up that you played another game together, not you. And you responded as if perhaps some one might look that up.
This is in contrast to camn, where you mentioned in her defense that you have witnessed her play, and don't find her scummy. I still think Camn's play reeks, but I'm not willing to risk it at this moment.

The fact that Yos was the target and not incog is a little clearing for you, but I don't think it takes pine off the hook as you suggest. With Pine having a wagon against him at that point, he may have been playing extra cautious in just who he was buddying/attacking to try and release some pressure. The over all pattern of Pine seems to be to just barely post anything to stay in, and just throw in a few things every here and there, but no seriously strong stances anywhere.. yet incredibly defensive when personally attacked, as we witnessed with camn.

[InflatablePie]

VC will come in the morning or tomorrow night (it's 3 AM on Friday here, but it still feels like Thursday - don't get technical with me).

However, I can give a 48 hour extension since activity's kicked up and you all asked nicely. :)

(plus I'm busy too so)

[Thor665]

I stated exactly why I felt wary. As far as I can recall from this game, you never once before that post above had posted anything about knowing Trip's play, you just continued to attack and call lynch on him, based on his play-style which you have witnessed as non-scum behavior from him before.

Here's a comment about TMW from my very first catchup post;

Everyone's niceness/qualifier mumble hangup with TMW is, unfortunately, probably null with him.

Read more. Also, please quote where I say I want to lynch him for his playstyle - I don't believe that exists so you're either making it up maliciously or you're not reading enough - fix that. Also, feel free to tell me the above denies knowledge of his playstyle - I dare you.

Meanwhile it was Trip that brought up that you played another game together, not you. And you responded as if perhaps some one might look that up.

Huh? (and I've shown that I wasn't hiding knowledge of Trip's playstyle already so...)

The fact that Yos was the target and not incog is a little clearing for you, but I don't think it takes pine off the hook as you suggest. With Pine having a wagon against him at that point, he may have been playing extra cautious in just who he was buddying/attacking to try and release some pressure. The over all pattern of Pine seems to be to just barely post anything to stay in, and just throw in a few things every here and there, but no seriously strong stances anywhere.. yet incredibly defensive when personally attacked, as we witnessed with camn.

Maaaaaybe. I'm not sure I buy it. I've seen him as scum twice and he didn't play like that either time, and was much more brash - so it doesn't scream scum game to me.
I'd much rather lynch Incog or TMW today. I'd rather no lynch than lynch Pine.

[bvoigt]

(Response to this post.)

I did follow a couple of Incognito's votes early in the game, but I had no other non-random reasons to make votes (which is why I kept a vote on Trip), and the information he presented was from outside sources. I also don't see the problem with "vote hopping"-- I unvoted both Trip and camn because, like you said, they explained themselves reasonably.

I don't agree at all that my Pine vote was weaker than my vote on you (in fact, you said yourself that it was "another weak argument"), nor do I agree that scummy actions haven't happened by Page 4.

You're right that I didn't explain fully why Lain, Yos, GC, and Incog were likely town due to interactions. But it's silly to say that I can't defend or explain myself when I did, here.

[Haylen]

A) You're failing to address your voting/opinions inconsistancy. Delibrately miss that?
B) R.E your weak vote on Pine. Voting somebody based purely on semanics when you have a 'strong meta case' against someone. Hmm. Clearly one of those is stronger than the other, they were both weak but semanics is generally a last resort for scumhunting especially when it's over someone voting someone for being

anti-town

4

pages

into the game, seriously? That's the best you can do at that stage in the game except under really weird circumstance.

C) I'm quite sure I was refering to specific posts when I said about defending and explaining, pretty sure that one wasn't one of them. I meant in general.

[bvoigt]

You mean keeping a vote on Trip when his explanation was reasonable? As I said, I had no real non-random reasons to vote at that time.

If you're referring to the meta case on camn, she explained that she had also suggested a nameclaim as town. And I still see that reason as a genuine scumtell, not semantics. Also, I don't remember other specific posts. Here's what you quoted and said:

I think Yos, GC, and Incognito are town because they either attacked or were attacked heavily by Battle Mage.

Heard of bussing? Scum like doing that on Day One. Says particular actions weren't bussing, what particular actions?

I am noticing from Bvoigt that he likes to say things, and make decisions, but he doesn't like to elaborate on them, which is scummy because it allows him to look like he is scumhunting but when asked to defend himself or explain himself, he can't. OH HEY, he did it when asked for it, but most of that post was based of what other people had already said.

[Green Crayons]

I did a reread of the thread. I originally was going to comment upon all the players who struck me as suspicious. While there were suspicious things of not regarding other players, Yos definitely led the pack in terms of suspicious posts. This not only cemented my opinion that he's scum, but also meant I trimmed this post down to focus only on him (and why he should be lynched).

I apologize that it’s long. I know people hate reading walls. But I can’t help it if there’s a whole host of stuff I think makes Yos suspicious. I did my best to link so that there aren’t quotes galore.

It’s organized in topical groups as things came to me or as I read. Points (B) and (C) are the meat of the case and showcase Yos’ scummy posting.


And – needless to say – I’m putting my full support behind a Yos-lynch.

Why I’m voting Yosarian2 (and why you should too)

:

(A)

BM “jokingly” says that Yos’ inability to properly use bold tags is a scum slip. Evaluate this comment in the context of my read that BM was using his “joking” persona as a cover combined with camn’s theory that BM was actually attempting to be as truthful as possible. The result is BM “outing” his scum partner because lol! Scum wouldn’t do that! I think this differs from when BM made “real” scum accusations because here we are supposed to not take BM seriously and thus BM is more able to flirt with the truth.

(B)

BM also did that whole distancing thing with Yos. Here’s a follow up post explaining why it makes sense.

(C)

I take issue with Yos’ active lurker status combined with his vacuous/suspicious post content.

(1) After a rousing lack of contribution (five posts in the first two days of no substance), Yos posts a rather uninspiring comment on camn’s name claim suggestion meant to be substantive (it was a mere repetition of what other players had already posted).

- (a) I still stand by my initial criticism of that post.

- (b) Yos’ subsequent defense (here) is suspicious because it showcases Yos’ lack of attention – all of his points are refuted simply by reading the thread (as I noted here). His defense looks like a scum who has been caught lurking and can’t be asked to even look at the thread.

- (c) I also still stand by my suspicion (second part of the post) of the fact that from that all of the criticism I had against Yos, Yos kept coming back to a point of contention (that my initial post was an “attack” and not an “intro-suspicion” post like everything else I had done up to that point) – which Yos

himself

manufactured – that was beside the entire point of my suspicions. He did it here and here. Yos is attempting to shift the focus gleaned from my initial suspicions against him as something they weren’t to detract from the original suspicions.

(2) After letting that simmer for two days, Yos makes some pretty bad arguments against Trip.

- (a) Yos gets “confused” about Trip’s camn-feelings, when they are fairly clear in there explanation.

- (b) Yos faults Trip for “doubting himself,” which is inherent in any town role. Scum, however, can play without doubt.

- (c-1) Yos faults Trip for finding Incog’s Haylen-vote reasoning unpersuasive – apart from the fact that this basis is a legitimate reason to vote someone, this in and of itself is part of a larger white-knighting issue (see (D) below).

- (c-2.1) More suspicious is that Yos then faults Trip for finding Incog his “#1 suspect” even though “stronger points” were made against other players. But these “stronger points” aren’t objectively certified – Yos himself is subjectively qualifying those points as stronger and then declaring Trip scummy for failing to have come to the same conclusion.

- (c-2.2) Incidentally, Yos uses this tactic – fabricating the nature of the situation and then attacking Trip based on that fabrication – later on when Yos attempts to distinguish why he didn’t vote for BM-scum but he did vote for Trip. In 205 Yos asserts that Trip’s response to inquiry about his Incog-vote was “downplay[ing] the importance of his vote” and that Trip was “doing everything” he could to imply that the vote was “meaningless and shouldn’t be worried about.” Yos cuts out the entirety of Trip’s response – which went to further explain his issues with Incog’s vote – to help fabricate the nature of the situation. But even taking the portion of Trip’s post that Yos wanted to qualify as suspicion, looking at Incog’s prompt for this response, it is easy to see why Trip responded in this way (without even needing to be explained as Trip does here) -- and, no, it's not because of "downplaying." (But Yos was sure to keep holding on to his fabrication.)

- (c-2.3) And because it’s another showcase of this tactic, Yos does this when discussing my claim that BM was attacking Yos to distance himself from a scum-partner. Yos boils down the specifics of my argument into a highly generalized claim, applies WIFOM to it, and calls it a day. It’s amazing how Yos has all these great arguments when he is able to fabricate an argument to fight against.

- (c-3) Also to be noted is Yos’ lurker-skimming in qualifying Trip’s comments re: camn as an attack when Trip said that he did not find camn scummy.

(3) After this he has a 9 hour distancing-frenzy with BM. See (B) above. Yos throws in a continued argument against Trip which I also take issue with. See (C)(2)(c-2.2) above.

(4) After telling Pere to stop talking about theory (even though the discussion re: the “theory” of D1 scum bussing was why many people were suspecting Pere at this point), Yos comes back after two days and votes Pere based off of unabashed bandwagoning off of Haylen’s reasoning. Yos here fails to – yet again – actually contribute to the conversation and uses Haylen’s reasoning as a cover to get away from his bad Trip vote. Yos acknowledges that Pere has not responded to Haylen’s Pere-criticisms but that there is merit in doing so – Yos thereby acknowledges that he is happy with Pere sitting at L-1 despite there being a potential explanation to sway Yos (or others) to see that Pere isn’t scum.

(5) Yos doesn’t like to outguess the mod. Except for when he’s willing to outguess the mod to excuse his vote.

(6) Yos comes into D2 swinging with not only defending Incog (see (D)(4) below), but using a bad argument (flimsy OMGUS claim) mixed with another player’s reasoning (Incog’s vote-the-replacement reasoning) to vote someone. So this is the worst of both worlds: fluff original contribution and pure repetition of another player’s thoughts.

(7) The remainder of Yos’ posts is defending Incog, defending himself against me, and several multi-day gaps in posting (one of which was, to be fair, July 4th weekend). Oh! And there’s a suggestion that Trip should be lynched as the most likely BM partner. But you guess it! No reasoning as to why this is the case. Where’s the active scumhunting that he chided Pere to start doing? Substance-free lurking at its finest.

(D)

Yos is Incog’s champion and white knight. Yos engages in blatant partnering with Incog that is spread out over the course of the game so not to be obvious. I think this has rubbed off on Incog because he has repeatedly said that Yos is town, and has taken issue with my suspicions of Yos in the past, but never has clearly articulated why (or when he did with my distancing argument he failed to respond to my clarification). FYI, Incog: you said yourself that you’ve been duped by partners in the past, and here (unlike bvoigt) Yos isn’t being “blatant” in terms of repeated vote-following.

(1) Yos ”dislikes” Trip’s reasoning for voting Incog (because Trip found Incog’s reasoning unconvincing). Nevermind the fact that this is a legitimate reason to vote someone on Page 6.

(2) Yos faults Trip for taking issue so early in Day 1 with finding Incog tossing out ideas to “see what will stick.” But Yos hasn’t a thing to say when Incog attacked camn on substantially similar grounds – when Incog criticized camn’s name claim suggestion, he attacked camn for putting something out in the thread to see what reactions would result (incorrectly qualifying it as backtracking and implying an issue with expecting a benefit from throwing something out to the group for reactions).

(3) In defending Incog, Yos conjures up this serving of congealed scumminess plucked from the lush fields of scumdom: “Inconstancy [GC note: “inconsistency”] is a town tell.” Uh… no. Inconsistency is a scum tell. It’s how you catch scum in lies. Oh yeah – he also used “inconsistency” (because it’s suspicious, see?) as one of his reasons to vote Pere. Hey, that’s inconsistent in and of itself! I think we may have entered into the meta-zone.

(4) And then there is Yos being the ever-present champion of BM-and-Incog-Couldn’t-Be-Partners. You can see Yos shining brightly in this role here, here, here, and here.

(5) Yos separately defends Incog against claims that Incog was indecisive/contradictory/(dare I say inconsistent?). The entire previous page was Incog doing just fine in defending himself.

(E)

Yos qualified my suspicions of him as a “textbook example” of trying to push a bad lynch when there is no case. Apart from the fact that this is rhetorical fluff and no substance, it strikes a certain similarity to his claim that my case against BM was “pretty thin.” Never mind the fact that amongst his major issues with my BM-vote was that I took a lot of time to lay out my reasons in a coherent fashion and that I methodically took “every one” of BM’s posts apart.

[Green Crayons]

Points (C) and (D) are the meat of the case, that is. Yay, mistakes.

[Medicated Lain]

@thorn: Alright, I'll admit I'm not the best at remembering everything that's been said. My mind even has a terrible tendency to corrupt data sometimes. The more I read, the more it absorbs in.. but you can't expect anyone to remember everything that occurs in one of these games, that's why it's good to be able to defend one self.

With that, I wonder now if the Incog vote could really be a good way to go after all. Thor, you seem pretty town at this point. Camn, I've got bad feelings on.. but it's too risky. Bvoigt seems like obv town to me. Trip, I'm confused by, but honestly I don't think he's scum. Haylen confuses me a lot.

Yos... Yos I'm not really sure on... but given the way he defends Incog, it's like what Thor was saying about Pine, except there's really an actual case there. Incog had 4 votes, and Yos really stepped in to save Incog, so either there's some win condition where they must be alive together, or Yos is town.
After I reviewed the game, Yos is definitely right that BM was genuinely pushing a lynch. BM pointed at both incog and yos day one.. I was in there too, but I'm town. What would the chances be that incog and yos are both scum? I see no reason to lynch Yos without first getting Incog to know what happened there. But if Incog isn't scum, there's no way I could see Yos being so.

I still think the case on Pine is quite strong too though.

[Medicated Lain]

Interesting that mine and Crayon's posts should come at the same time. I read your post and all Crayons, so let's have a look see here:
A is certainly an interesting point.
B I don't particularly get the distancing case. Is it not generally seen that scum will interact directly with town folk? I've certainly done it as scum. What do others think of this?
C.... is more like cdefgh... you get the picture. I'll agree, that the activity level certainly isn't in a place where I would say he's pro town based on it... but I just played another game with him, and it doesn't strike me as any what a different pattern, and he was town in that game, so it's not setting off any triggers per say.
His argument against Trip was sound. I don't understand what trip meant at all by saying that it seems like Camn is more scummy in this game for doing something she would usually do as pro town... and I certainly thought it was weird. (Personally I am inclined to believe that this is just over thinking the situation..) The case against camn was 110% sound. Mass claim calls should never be considered town, and the points he made were not repeating what I nor anyone else said, like you suggest, he just seemed to have his own point to chime in.
D You say that Yos defends incog because Incog has been on his side... but would Yos as scum sincerely go to that heavy a level to stop a lynch that was two votes away from occurring? It seems just far too unlikely unless there is some other reason to keep Incog alive.. it just doesn't balance out.
E Yos made valid points, and I haven't understood the bulk of your arguments. I'd much rather see you lynched before Yos, even.. perhaps especially because of this most recent post.

[Medicated Lain]

Alright folk, we were given a deadline exchange to decide. I've decided no on no lynch.

vote: Incognito

[Thor665]

@thorn: Alright, I'll admit I'm not the best at remembering everything that's been said. My mind even has a terrible tendency to corrupt data sometimes. The more I read, the more it absorbs in.. but you can't expect anyone to remember everything that occurs in one of these games, that's why it's good to be able to defend one self.

So basically what I'm hearing is everything you say I should make sure to go fact check because you basically have like a 50% chance to just be totally making something up in your own head?
How sure are you on this Incog case of yours?

[camn]

I have a strong feeling of Incog-scum.

[Yosarian2]

(B)

BM also did that whole distancing thing with Yos. Here’s a follow up post explaining why it makes sense.

Don't you get what BM was actually doing there?

His entire goal in the posts where he attacked me for "being inconsistent" in the difference between my BM and my Trip reads was to manipulate me into explaining why he wasn't scummy (IE: into defending him). He was trying to create a fake connection between me and him, and to get me to call him town. And then when I did, he dropped it. It's the opposite of distancing. It was a pretty skillfull scum manipulation move; if you're scum, once you can force or trick someone into calling you town and explaining why they think you're town, they're much less likely to vote for you, and they look worse if you get lynched.

The other likely reasons for BM's attack there were to undermine Incog's defense and, I strongly suspect, as a chainsaw defense of Trip. Trip's attack on Incog wasn't really much like BM's attack at all, so why did BM jump in to say "Why are you attacking Trip and not me for that?" It really looks like an attempt on BM's part to derail the trip wagon. (I also think it would appeal to BM's sense of irony to attack me for being "inconsistant" for attacking one scum on a town wagon while ignoring another.)

All in all, it was really a brilliant play on BM's part. Of course, it would be a terrible play on his part if he was trying to distance from me, like you keep claiming he was, but that clearly wasn't his motive.

(7) The remainder of Yos’ posts is defending Incog, defending himself against me, and several multi-day gaps in posting (one of which was, to be fair, July 4th weekend). Oh! And there’s a suggestion that Trip should be lynched as the most likely BM partner. But you guess it! No reasoning as to why this is the case.

I've gave reasoning over and over again on that. BM did a mega chainsaw defense of Trip as soon as Trip was attacked. Not only have i already said this, other people have as well. Now I think you're the one who dosn't seem to be reading the thread.

(D)

Yos is Incog’s champion and white knight. Yos engages in blatant partnering with Incog that is spread out over the course of the game so not to be obvious. I think this has rubbed off on Incog because he has repeatedly said that Yos is town, and has taken issue with my suspicions of Yos in the past, but never has clearly articulated why (or when he did with my distancing argument he failed to respond to my clarification). FYI, Incog: you said yourself that you’ve been duped by partners in the past, and here (unlike bvoigt) Yos isn’t being “blatant” in terms of repeated vote-following.

Incog is pretty clearly town here. I've played with him many, many times, including hundreds of games in-person at three different scum meets, and I have a good read on his meta. This is Incog town. This is how Incog town plays. I don't care if you think that's "buddying"; I am not going to sit back and let people lynch my strongest town read in the game for weak reasons. There's been a strong push from many people, including one confirmed scum, to go after Incog all game, and the reasons for it are and have always been crap.

[InflatablePie]

D2 VC #5 - The Surgery, Surgery Votecount

Incognito (4) - Pine, camn, TripMyWire, Medicated Lain
TripMyWire (4) - bvoigt, Yosarian2, Incognito, Thor665
Yosarian2 (1) - Green Crayons
bvoigt (1) - Haylen

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or 5 to No Lynch.
Deadline is July 18th at 11pm Eastern.
Please notify me of any votecount mistakes.

[Thor665]

Deadline is tomorrow - I'm actually pretty emotionally comfortable with either of the current leading lynches. People should be adjusting themselves though. Crayons has (if I recall correctly) come out against both lynches and Haylen has...posted...
If someone is on Incog and is fine with a TMW lynch too how about you hop over?

[Yosarian2]

Deadline is tomorrow - I'm actually pretty emotionally comfortable with either of the current leading lynches./quote]

No.

Incog is pretty clearly town here. I've played with him many, many times, including hundreds of games in-person at three different scum meets, and I have a good read on his meta. This is Incog town. This is how Incog town plays.

Lynching Incognito is not an acceptable option, period. If anyone at all, for any reason, moves over and votes Incognito now, 24 hours before the deadline, I swear to God I will get you lynched tomorrow, come hell or high water.

[camn]

Ok, Yos. I'll back your play for now.
I disagree, I think Incog is NOT playing as his townie self.... but I think YOU are.. so :

UNVOTE
VOTE: TripMyWire

[bvoigt]

Sorry GC, but I just don't find most of those points all that convincing. For example, it's true that Yos has defended Incognito heavily-- but it's been so blatant that I don't really see the scum motivation for it. If they are scum together, the link between them is far more detrimental than the benefits of defending each other. And if Yos is scum and Incog is town, wouldn't it be far easier to help push the mislynch than try and stop it? However, there was one point that I did find interesting:

(3) In defending Incog, Yos conjures up this serving of congealed scumminess plucked from the lush fields of scumdom: “Inconstancy [GC note: “inconsistency”] is a town tell.” Uh… no. Inconsistency is a scum tell. It’s how you catch scum in lies. Oh yeah – he also used “inconsistency” (because it’s suspicious, see?) as one of his reasons to vote Pere. Hey, that’s inconsistent in and of itself! I think we may have entered into the meta-zone.

One of his reasons for voting Peregrine was "calling Haylen town while still voting for her." To me, this is an accusation of inconsistency with reads...a vote on a town read. But, like you said, Yos believes that inconsistency is a town tell. I feel like he may have been trying to push the mislynch of PereV with poor reasoning.

[Green Crayons]

Yos:

Don't you get what BM was actually doing there? ... It was a pretty skillfull scum manipulation move ... All in all, it was really a brilliant play on BM's part.

Scum praising scum's play. Not like that happens ever.

I've gave reasoning over and over again on that. BM did a mega chainsaw defense of Trip as soon as Trip was attacked. Not only have i already said this, other people have as well. Now I think you're the one who dosn't seem to be reading the thread.

You have said this? That's a laugh. What you must mean is that you - once again - have voiced a "I agree with <player>." You did it with Hayln in voting Pere, you did it with Incog in voting Fugitive, and now you're doing it in voting for Trip. You're playing the game excessively safe by constantly using other player's voting rationales, and it reeks of scumminess.

So, nope, I'm not buying what you're selling. All you have done D2 is repeatedly defend Incog, defend yourself, and filler/"I agree with..." posts. The fact that you chastised Pere for failing to scumhunt, but here you are failing to scumhunt, exposes your scum-induced hypocrisy.

---

bviogt:

For example, it's true that Yos has defended Incognito heavily-- but it's been so blatant that I don't really see the scum motivation for it. If they are scum together, the link between them is far more detrimental than the benefits of defending each other.

The scum motivation is that Yos gets town-points for being a zealous advocate for a player who will flip town. I've done it before as scum, and it's a neat little tactic that scum can use (with mixed results). It's one thing to claim that someone is town, or explain why you think an argument against another player is wrong. But Yos has gone above and beyond this standard in defending Incog, which is suspicious in and of itself. However, this suspicion is compounded by the fact that (a) Incog is one of the most experienced players here (and apparently has a long play-history with Yos) and therefore he is a big threat to scum (particularly a scum-Yos) and (b) Incog has been duped by scum in the past who have buddied up with him. Combining these two points, it makes sense for a scum-Yos to do this above and beyond defense of a town-Incog because, instead of risking a dangerous Incog mislynch, he is able to butter Incog up.

[Medicated Lain]

So basically what I'm hearing is everything you say I should make sure to go fact check because you basically have like a 50% chance to just be totally making something up in your own head?

You know you're a bully, right?

It's not a 50% chance on anything. It's mafia, we look at what we see and interpret it how we see it. Human error exists. Even with that, we learn a lot based on the reactions from the people we are addressing. Furthermore, if some one is voting anyone based on the sole information that one person is providing (especially without quotes referencing... I've been kinda lazy I guess), then personally I think they are scum too. So I certainly would hope you would do a bit of checking too. The main reason for giving your own reasoning on something, is simply to show the town what you are thinking.

How sure on Incog am I? More sure than I am on Trip. Less sure than I am on Pine... but no one's willing to go there with me.

[Thor665]

I might be a bully, I was certainly reacting negatively towards you. I do have a bad habit in that I get tense when people forget things I have said and make up things I haven't said and then call me scummy because of it. I don't think this habit will go away.

I'll double check you more in the future. I don't think your Pine case is all that solid, especially not in light of multiple Pine=town cases. It's certainly not going anywhere fast. How do you feel about Yos' "none shalt vote Incog" stance and Camn's abandonment of the wagon? Looks like the Incog wagon is dying fast, hard, and in a jiffy.

[camn]

I would vote Incog. But I will not encourage a no-lynch.

[Medicated Lain]

Well at this point it pretty much can't be helped. Yos seems quite set, and it's definitely very convincing, that's all I'll say on the matter for now. Seems like the trip lynch is inevitable at this point... I'm not convinced 100% that sibelian COULDN'T be scum, i think it's hiiiiighly unlikely, and such a waste. I suspect we are probably missing the real scum today.

[Thor665]

Sibelian?