Open 316 - Hard Boiled (Day Two)

[DarkFlashlight]

If Hoopla flips scum it almost confirms Andrew as town. Scum might nominate themselves one in the lynch pool as a WIFOM situation, but unless they knew it would get canceled, they wouldn't politely offer to commit suicide by D2. Unless you think there's an Andrew/Hoopla/Muffin gambit here, which would be super amazing and in that case I say we just give you three the game now for effort, especially since Andrew was the one who would've had to recognize and close up the plan without discussing it with his teammates.

Why do you want to [possibly] vig me, Glow? Gut read or what?

it [lynching Hoopla] provides more information regardless of the flip

Explain.

Why would the hider hide behind THE CLAIMED VIG?

In her defense, she said NOT to do that.

I don't really get it. Are you agreeing that it's unlikely scum would gimp themselves by volunteering for the lynch pool? If so, why vote Hoopla just for "information"?

It is unlikely, but one of my biggest downfalls in this game is okay'ing people for weak reasons. I don't wanna jump on the Coventry wagon, which I don't support, just because it's unlikely that Hoopla would sacrifice.

Also, the hider could easily hide behind Hoopla or andrew and confirm their alignment.

This is a good idea, and gives me another idea. What if hider did this, but said who he was going to hide behind before night. That way scum can either take out vig and have a confirmed townie and PR the next day, or go for the hider, kill two townies, but vig lives past N1.

[andrew94]

^ so ur last statement suggests that you know that hoopla and i are townies.

[glowball]

...then stop trying to understand. I have my methods you have yours. They were just suggestions, but I never implied that the hider would hide behind the vig it was just a friendly reminder not to.

[zMuffinMan]

It's not really relevant to the game at the moment, but I feel I should point out that the hider dies if he hides behind anyone with a killing role, glowball, so it's a given that the hider is not going to hide behind the vig, with or without your friendly reminder.

Now, we have 1.5 days to reach a consensus and a whole bunch of lurkers plus a flaker.

Anyone who is not currently voting Coventry (or fuck, if you don't agree with a vote on Coventry, then whoever you're most suspicious of in the vig pool) should give reasons why.

"We need a lynch on anybody" is not an acceptable reason. I want to know whether you're actually suspicious of andrew/Hoopla, and if so, why? If not, why are you voting for them? What have I said that you disagree with?

This is a good idea, and gives me another idea. What if hider did this, but said who he was going to hide behind before night. That way scum can either take out vig and have a confirmed townie and PR the next day, or go for the hider, kill two townies, but vig lives past N1.

That depends mostly on the lynch/flip today.

What I'd like to see happen is this:

Lynch from vig pool today (Coventry is, imo, the best option).
Vig from vig pool tonight (neil should announce his target before we go to N1)
Hider hides behind one person in the lynch pool (confirms their alignment for tomorrow)
det-psych can do whatever they want, it's hard to give advice because it depends on whether they're actually the detective or the pysch

Tomorrow the game really begins.

[MrBump]

Deadline in one day. If we hit deadline, there will be No Lynch and everyone will cry.

The "No Lynch" flavour and entry to Night Phase may be a little late, but not game-killing. As soon as it reaches 10pm tomorrow (GMT), votes won't be counted.

That said, what time zone is everyone in so I can make the deadlines more efficient for most people rather than me, who isn't even playing?

Vote Count 1.12

andrew94 - 4

(Amrun, Oversoul, chkflip, Quilford)

Hoopla - 3

(glowball, DarkFlashlight, coventry)

coventry - 5 (L-2)

(zMuffinMan, neil1113, Hoopla, andrew94, silverbullet)

Not Voting:

N/A

With twelve alive, it takes

seven

to lynch! The deadline is on the 18th of July at 22:00 GMT!

[Hoopla]

LYNCH COVENTRY FFS.

Neil, announce your shot now.

[Coventry]

I’m going to agree with zMuffinMan at this point. We can’t afford a no-lynch. I think Hoopla is the best candidate for these reasons:

• 1. Hoopla introduced one of the most anti-town “guaranteed town win” plans ever on day one. While the plan itself makes a certain amount of sense to me, it proposed to eliminate scumhunting until day two or even later. This was CERTAIN to create problems for town, since most of us play Mafia in order to scumhunt. As a result, lack of interest has been the hallmark of this game up til now. Town has been given no reason to participate and with the timely addition of zMuffin’s contributions, has been berated, insulted, and ignored when they did try to post anything. I find it amusing that at this point zMuffin is complaining about lurkers, since it seems to me his abusive and petulant tirades have more or less guaranteed that no one wants to post and be subjected to them. “Just do what I want!” does not constitute an actual argument and piling insult on top of it does not make it one.
  
  2. We can’t lynch zMuffin. He’s a claimed power role. The fact that he has seized on every single anti-town element of Hoopla’s plan and magnified it so that it had the worst possible effect should be remembered Day 2, but can’t have any relevance now. If Hoopla is town, then I’m almost certainly wrong about zMuffin being the scum in the claimed PR pool. If Hoopla is scum, then I think zMuffin is too.
  
  3. zMuffin buddies Hoopla to the extent that he seems perfectly comfortable altering her plan and she doesn’t object even though she had a foolproof plan in the first place. Was zMuffin in on the plan from the start? Why would Hoopla allow such sweeping changes to her plan if they weren’t part of the plan to start with? What was the point of the test, if not to test her plan? Certainly it wasn’t to make the game any more fun and interesting to the players, a situation that usually benefits town.
  
  4. Hoopla is a lurker. She’s been letting zMuffin fight her battles for her, which is fair enough if she’s scum because she’s in a vulnerable position. With one scum in the claimed PR pool and temporarily safe, it might have made sense to be the first volunteer. This is especially true if this was Hoopla’s scum plan and not her town plan, since zMuffin would know that he should defend her. The problem I have with this theory is that the third partner has been remarkably silent and has not joined zMuffin’s quest to lynch “Anyone but Hoopla” nor defended Hoopla; maybe that is for safety. I just don't know.
  
  5. zMuffin switches his suspicions instantly and tells us to trust him, just trust him no matter who he’s going after. He was nasty to people who were trying to scumhunt early, and now is complaining that no one has tried to do so since that. If you look at the list of people he has found suspicious, it exactly corresponds with the people who haven’t gone along silently with his amazing gut reads. Questioning zMuffin is the biggest scumtell of all, apparently, and disagreeing with him is a sure route to the gallows. The argument about whether scum would be so aggressive and unpleasant is WIFOM in my opinion. If I think they won’t, then of course they will. Hoopla is even worse. She doesn’t have to justify her vote at all, since she’s cleared by zMuffin in advance because she jumped on the lynch pool instantly… almost as if it were planned.

TL:DR version:

• 1. Hoopla’s plan hurt town more than it helped.
  
  2. zMuffin can’t be lynched today.
  
  3. Hoopla eagerly agreed to zMuffin’s changes to her supposedly guaranteed plan.
  
  4. zMuffin is buddying Hoopla like both their lives depend on it.
  
  5. zMuffin swings his suspicions to anyone who questions his actions or alterations to the “foolproof surefire plan” he didn’t even create but that he feels very free to change.

That said, I’m fine with being lynched today. It’s not the best play in my opinion but it’s still better than a no-lynch since it will give weight to what I’ve said here. Don’t lynch Andrew; his lynch gains us no information at all. Put it between me and Hoopla and lynch the one you think gains us the most information or, if you think one of us is scum, lynch that way.

[Amrun]

VOTE: Coventry

I hate this lynch, but I'm too close to null on Coventry to risk a no lynch.

[Hoopla]

1. Hoopla introduced one of the most anti-town “guaranteed town win” plans ever on day one. While the plan itself makes a certain amount of sense to me, it proposed to eliminate scumhunting until day two or even later. This was CERTAIN to create problems for town, since most of us play Mafia in order to scumhunt. As a result, lack of interest has been the hallmark of this game up til now. Town has been given no reason to participate and with the timely addition of zMuffin’s contributions, has been berated, insulted, and ignored when they did try to post anything. I find it amusing that at this point zMuffin is complaining about lurkers, since it seems to me his abusive and petulant tirades have more or less guaranteed that no one wants to post and be subjected to them. “Just do what I want!” does not constitute an actual argument and piling insult on top of it does not make it one.

That's bullshit, and you know it. The plan was never a substitute for scumhunting. It was merely a framework to maximise the amount of opportunities to lynch and vig - all of those lynches and vigs are being determined by who is the scummiest. Boxing scum into predetermined categories and narrowing the pool by having a core of confirmed or psuedo-confirmed townies was always a pro-town endeavor. It was never meant to be a "guaranteed win", but it was meant to maximise our chances over playing the game straight - I don't think anyone can feasibly argue against that.

The reason this game stalled is because your predecessor flaked at the worst possible time when we needed everyone to okay the plan. This plan would have NO problem of succeeding if we weren't battered by replacements and Neil wasn't an idiot. You cannot pin that against me or the plan. Opportunities to scumhunt still exist within the framework of the plan. Stop making out that the plan took that away, because it didn't and you know it.

I'm kind of pissed off so many people have flaked from a committment and that few people are thinking the plan through objectively. If you think I'm scum trying to lock town into a suboptimal play, then you're in dreamland. Yep! It was totally my plan all along to have the vig out himself for no reason. It was totally my plan to have jake stall the game for three days (and for the mod to take even longer to find a replacement), just so I can stop the town from scumhunting. Ha Ha! Success!

Or, you know. Another conclusion is that this plan is/was capable of delivering the town a better chance of winning than random, and I proposed it because I am town and want to improve my chances of winning. But that would be too simple, wouldn't it?

[Coventry]

If your plan was optimal, Hoopla, why did you accept every single change made by zMuffin to the plan without question or protest? And if you didn't feel it was a substitute for scumhunting, why didn't you speak up when zMuffin used your plan as a reason to beat down anyone who didn't just do what he said as part of "your" plan?

You've been lurky yourself. Why wouldn't you take ownership of your own plan and work for its success, rather than depending on someone else to do all the work for you? Unless THAT was the plan all along?

[Hoopla]

Lol. Everyone loves a conspiracy. THAT was the plan all along! Scum went to all that effort to concoct a town-looking plan that secretly is beneficial to the town, despite the plan being completely public and prone to dissection. You're dabbling in such outlandish tinfoil territory, it's not funny. Do you really think this is the likeliest explanation for the motivations behind how the plan has unfolded?

I've been lurky because I can barely read people on Day 1 in most situations, much less in situations where we get shafted by replacements - that's the reason why I crafted a plan to give us more opportunities to hit scum (something not dependent on the town's skill). The game isn't enjoyable right now. I haven't been paying much attention in the last week or so because I haven't cared. Sorry, but it's true. I won't try and deny that.

When I proposed the plan, it was a draft. I thought about it a lot, but there were ways of tweaking it to make it better than I overlooked. Those changes made it better, so I agreed.

We need to just get on with it and pick a lynch. If you guys want to lynch me, I'll be disappointed, because I think it's obvious my motivations were pure. I think once we get the game to Day 2, it'll be a lot easier for everyone.

[Coventry]

I agree that it will be easier when we get to Day 2.

I really don't like that you proposed a plan that is "not dependent on the town's skill", thus taking away a primary reason for the town to care, and then decided you didn't care either. In your scenario, who's supposed to care?

To be fair, I can't be certain whether this is Hoopla-scum trying to make the game less enjoyable for everyone and thus depress the town's interest in catching scum by telling them repeatedly there's no point in trying to do so because the plan is "not dependent on the town's skill", or Hoopla-town just not having a clue about why people play Mafia and why people might not be very invested in a game where they're told their skill flatly doesn't matter.

Either way, it's not a good thing.

[zMuffinMan]

Coventry, who do you think is scum in the vig pool?

If MrBump came along and mod-confirmed Hoopla as town, who would you think is scum?

[Coventry]

I've answered this already; I think Amrun is the most likely scum in the vig pool, assuming Andrew is town. If Andrew is scum I think the scumteam is Andrew-you-Hoopla. If MrBump modconfirmed Hoopla as town, I'd have to reconsider whether you are the scum in the PR pool. I guess I'd have to look at Quilford again as well.

Speaking of which, when did Neil become one of your town reads to you as opposed to your highest suspicion? Was it the instant he claimed vig? Or was it when he jumped on the wagon you were pushing after that?

What was the point of the vig pool the way that you were using it? Was part of the point of the vig pool to allow the vig to hide in it and choose targets from it? If that was the case, was it a good idea to pressure members of the vig pool in retrospect? Do you think your actions improved Hoopla's plan, as she seems to suggest?

As I said, I am okay with being lynched but I would like these questions answered either way.

[DarkFlashlight]

@Muffin, I didn't wanna support a Coventry lynch because most of her responses were things I probably would've said had I been in the same situation. At least earlier, not so much now; her #1 point in 956 was just a lie.


I still don't fully support a Coventry lynch, despite recent posts losing her some cred, but I support it more than an NL.


PRE-EDIT:

If Andrew is scum I think the scumteam is Andrew-you-Hoopla.

Remember the first post on this page:

Unless you think there's an Andrew/Hoopla/Muffin gambit here, which would be super amazing and in that case I say we just give you three the game now for effort, especially since Andrew was the one who would've had to recognize and close up the plan without discussing it with his teammates.

That's definitely a conspiracy theory unless you think Andrew was capable of thinking of, "If myself and Hoopla are in the lynch pool, Muffin can then say, 'Scum wouldn't volunteer, those two are town,' and protect us for at least a couple of days since he logic makes sense, and we wouldn't have been able to plan this out, since having two in the lynch pool was someone else's idea." In addition, they both would've had to be online at the exact right times to volunteer before anyone else could take their spots.

Is that really likely?

[chkflip]

I love that Hoopla gets lippy when she's properly called out.

VOTE: Coventry

[zMuffinMan]

Speaking of which, when did Neil become one of your town reads to you as opposed to your highest suspicion? Was it the instant he claimed vig?

Yep, already covered why it's suicidal for scum to claim vig, so he's a town read. If I'm wrong, he's dead tonight anyway, so it's not a big deal.

What was the point of the vig pool the way that you were using it?

The same as it was originally going to be used for.

If that was the case, was it a good idea to pressure members of the vig pool in retrospect? Do you think your actions improved Hoopla's plan, as she seems to suggest?

Retrospect is great, isn't it? If I knew neil would react the way he did, I probably wouldn't have provoked him. But he did, and there's nothing I can do about it now. There were plenty of ways he could have handled it without claiming, but meh.

Do you think your actions improved Hoopla's plan, as she seems to suggest?

I'm not actually sure where she implied that, I think you're misunderstanding what Hoopla has actually said, but I do actually think my last-minute change was an improvement, and I've already covered why (several times, actually).

[zMuffinMan]

And er, that was the hammer, and neil hasn't had a chance to announce his vig target. meh.

[MrBump]

LYNCH HAS BEEN REACHED

Vote Count 1.12

andrew94 - 2

(Oversoul, Quilford)

Hoopla - 3

(glowball, DarkFlashlight, coventry)

coventry - 7 (LYNCH)

(zMuffinMan, neil1113, Hoopla, andrew94, silverbullet, Amrun, chkflip)

Not Voting:

N/A

There was a hush in the room that everyone had gathered. There had been so many changes in who was present, everyone had lost track and took it for granted that someone would randomly disappear to be replaced with a new, smiling face. Everyone was slightly fearful the same would happen to them, but they got the job done.

The newest face, coventry was instantly attacked by the others. I blinked, confused, unable to see their reasonings, but I suppose when you've been trapped in one room for around a month, you begin to get a little suspicious of everything that happens. Before long, they decided to lynch coventry.

They led her to the rope hanging from the ceiling, and made her stand up on the chair. DarkFlashlight pulled the chair back without a word. She didn't struggle or move, and then went limp.

The others all checked her pockets for anything that would indicate a conspiracy. It was funny how they never thought to try that before. Of course, they didn't find anything, and I merely called "Yeah, you got one," from my window. It was sad they got coventry, I had quite a bit of money on her to survive, but it was fun to watch this as it was.

And so the night began. The door to the room opened to pitch blackness, and everyone ran out in search of their own homes. They'd all come hoping to see if the rumours of a conspiracy were true, and they'd probably been through hell while we played out little game. I wondered how many would be back tomorrow as I turned off the lights and left.

coventry was lynched!

She was a

Mafia Goon!

It is now

Night One!

Anyone with a Night Action, please PM me, even if you're not using it. The deadline is on the 21st of July.

Nighty night!

[MrBump]

silverbullet has been replaced by YoYoGuy435!

The deadline for Night One is 22:00GMT on the 23rd of July.

[MrBump]

Flavour coming later

neil1113 was killed! He was a

Mafia Goon!

It is now Day Two!

[Oversoul]

Who is your daddy. Called it.

[Oversoul]

How are we going to prove which PR is lying?

[Oversoul]

And if we are claiming I am claiming last for a few reasons.

[Hoopla]

Lol, oh dear.

Each PR claims - it doesn't matter what order. It's game over for scum. We lynch the matching claims back-to-back.