Mafia Invictus ~ Game Over!

[Zachrulez]

Oh, BTW Benmage is scum and completely under everyone's radar.

I've been sitting on that one long enough, but since I'm about to die... yeah.

(He's one of the few people NOT screaming that I'm scum right now and it's so unlike him.)

[Zachrulez]

Goofball is town, even as misguided as her case on me is.

Fate's town.

Magna's probably town.

Talihandur is town.

Scum are in here: Benmage, Gut, Naut, Vitamin R, Gammagooey.

Happy hunting.

[Gammagooey]

I will be the most surprised dude if you flip town. If you are made of anti-miracles and do flip town?
MAYBE.
Probably not. MoI really does need to die.

If you are town then the hell was up with the not claiming spiel and MoI and seriously. Serrrriously.

[Fate]

Ill be invictusing whoever hammers Zach.

Gamma has shit on his townread completely for being all. "Lol u flip scum nao" on town TWO DAYS IN A ROW

[Zachrulez]

I will be the most surprised dude if you flip town. If you are made of anti-miracles and do flip town?
MAYBE.
Probably not. MoI really does need to die.

If you are town then the hell was up with the not claiming spiel and MoI and seriously. Serrrriously.

It was more about Moi's I'm not even at lynch -1 comment. I didn't really like the tone of that. (At the time.)

I'm generally anti-claim as vanilla... I don't really see a point if I'm just going to get lynched anyway, you know?

[Tarhalindur]

I have to head to dinner now, so a full rebuttal of the Zach case will have to wait for a couple of hours, but this needs to be said immediately:

Oh, and I shant be claiming anything at all, ever.

Oh this I don't get. Why did you vote me solely for not claiming when I was at L-2?

BINGO

SCUM HIT

50,000 points

FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME
FREE GAME

If we're going to lynch obvtown anyways and nobody's going to man up on me, why the hell aren't we lynching DGB for being antitown as shit?

I mean seriously, this is Medieval all over again. I'm probably Invictusing DGB tonight just to shut her up (assuming I get killed, which seems likely) so that scum actually have to stick their heads out tomorrow rather than just sheep DGB like they've been doing.

But first, DGB, since you're town and I'd rather have you in the game if possible (and continuing to be an effective extra Mafioso counts as not possible), one last little plea:

Remember Medieval? Where you harebrained off that confirmed scum couldn't be scum and that my correct lategame reads were wrong? Are you SERIOUSLY going to do that again? Are we going to have to get rid of your anti-town antics the old-fashioned way?

Before we do anything else, please fire up your Scumputer again and recalc things WITHOUT the SpyreX randomlynch.

[Benmage]

<<<<<< loves that having a weekend life = scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

Remember Medieval? Where you harebrained off that confirmed scum couldn't be scum and that my correct lategame reads were wrong? Are you SERIOUSLY going to do that again?

I forget... what did I do in Medieval? Off the bat I remember a few dark tunnels... but we won.

[Gammagooey]

Ill be invictusing whoever hammers Zach.

Gamma has shit on his townread completely for being all. "Lol u flip scum nao" on town TWO DAYS IN A ROW

I will gladly trade wagon positions with anyone who wishes to see Zach dead that isn't wagoning yet so that I'm the hammer on Zach.

And Fate I don't regret the sila lynch. He wasn't even bothering to play the game. MoI dies too tonight, so you can finally stop bitching about that regardless of his alignment. If you want someone else to die with MoI then do something about it.

THIS APPLIES TO YOU TOO TARHALINDUR.

All of this WAH PEOPLE AREN'T LISTENING TO ME crap when MoI is dying anyway is absolutely retarded.

[Vi]

Vote Count XIV:

Noble sacrifice vs. Noble sacrifice
Zachrulez (L-1) ~ Nautilius, Gut,

Fate,

The Illuminati, Gammagooey, DrippingGoofball, Duplicity
Gut (L-5) ~ Zachrulez, MagnaofIllusion
Tarhindular (L-5) ~ Tarhalindur, Benmage
MagnaofIllusion (L-5) ~ VitaminR, Fate
Duplicity (L-6) ~ Ban

(Minimum L-7)

Not Voting:

Benmage, Duplicity

-Zachrulez is at L-1!

--Deadline is Tuesday, July 19 at 2100 EST.

((expired on 2011-07-19 21:00:00))

[Fate]

Dies tonight?

That's funny.

Someone brought up doctor and scum bp.

Silavor would've ACTUALLY died at night, like a policy vig on scum WOULD.

A policy vig on scum from a known source WILL NOT WORK.

But I'm done arguing with you Gamma, you are no longer a townread.

[Tarhalindur]

Goofball is town, even as misguided as her case on me is.

Fate's town.

Magna's probably town.

Talihandur is town.

Scum are in here: Benmage, Gut, Naut, Vitamin R, Gammagooey.

Happy hunting.

This post is so unbelievably, obviously town that I can't believe there are still players voting for Zach.

[Gammagooey]

If MoI DOESN'T die then we have a mislynch Because he didn't die and it's all good. (this is assuming 4 scum but I think that's a pretty good assumption)

And if you guys want to get into all this setup speculation sure why not.

Scum having a doctor doesn't make sense. Right now it's looking like the vast majority of the town's power is from invictus kills and giving scum a doctor to protect their scummiest player is INCREDIBLY hurtful to the town. A single bulletproof scum-player I can see as happening but if it's MoI he gets murdered tomorrow and everything is fine.

And I'm disappointed Fate, sure you aren't going to take a scum-read's arguments for PURE GOLD but surely they can be useful for getting a read on other players, as well as getting a stronger conclusion about your read on me.

Tar are you serious.
Yes it's a serious question.

[Fate]

Your reads and therefore arguments are subpar, see silavor flip andstart of D2.

TAR

Don't argue with scum anymore, I agree Zach is obvtown.

Now stop voting yourself, this MoI wagon IS HAPPENING.

[Gammagooey]

You mean the wagon on the guy who can hammer Zach whenever he wants, and could have hammered him earlier today?
Yeah good luck with that. I'm sure you'll make it happen.

[Fate]

Moi didn't quickhammer someone???

[S0HEE MUST BETOWN YOOO[/s]

Stop it Fate

FUCKING STOP ITTT

[Gammagooey]

Oh I'm certainly not saying he's town.
I AM saying that trying to wagon him isn't going to work.

[Tarhalindur]

But wait, there's more:

Because scumvor is so stupid he would go out of his way to draw attention to himself by hammering.

Right. Ok then. You keep thinking that.

WIFOM

Why did you hammer?

This is everything that Zach has provided on his case for silavor. A silavor-town making a stupid hammer like that would be prey for at least one opportunistic scum cashing in on stupidity, and Zach treating this like it is obviously the correct lynch is what I would expect from scum. Notice how there is no effort to explain scum benefit behind the hammer, just a parked vote. Also similar to how MoI handled things, except it's an even juicier action coming from MoI, considering how he was protesting against having another stupid, thoughtless lynch like SpyreX's twice in a row.

BULLSHIT.

You know what that reads as to me? It reads as town parking his vote on a player who did something scummy pending his explanation/a better target - just like, say, my D1 SpyreX vote.

The really telling part here is the question "why did you hammer?" - unless I'm very much mistaken, Zach wasn't *sure* that silavor's hammer is scum-motivated, only suspected it, so he double-checked. That's town behavior.

Going for the easy mislynch continues with the Baby Spice Invictus vote. Explanation is that she hasn't poste a lot, and that's it. When she does post more, he ignores her and keeps the vote, and later adds on "piss poor meta case" for reasoning, which is shit an is lazy Zach scum giving just enough reasoning to justify an opportunistic vote.

Uh, no.

From what I can tell, Zach vote to vig (not lynch) BabySpice because she was an unreadable lurker, then when she actually did post she read scummy to him so he upgraded to a vote. That's town logic.

Proof of this? Take a gander at this post:

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

I was hoping to get him to actually qualify his statement with well... anything with that remark.

@Duplicity: If/when Baby Spice posts more, it's possible my position on her will change, for these 5 minutes though, she's doing a lot of nothing.

This? This is 100% town mindset.

His MoI vote is wonderful for analysis when it seemed like MoI was definitely going to get lynched; he puts Magna at L-1, no reasoning. This later allowed him to back off the Magna vote later when scumMoI squirmed for longer than expected with "oh, I was just voting him out of annoyance". This is scumZach not wanting to be caught off the wagon, but definitely being reluctant to lynch his scumbuddy.

This is a bullshit misrep if I ever saw one.

Zach's reasoning for voting MoI was his refusal to claim, no more, no less. In fact, Zach lays out his reasoning for the MoI vote here:

V/LA and don't have a lot of time.

Original vote on Magna was annoyance, but I'm not getting the feel I got in Star's aligned when he was going for the murderer win con and was blatantly scummy. So out of the major wagons, I'd prefer a Silavor lynch.

Unvote: Vote: Silavor

Would happily switch to Baby Spice or Gut if there's interest in lynching them today. (Which I haven't seen to this point.)

Also note the "prefer a silavor lynch" and "would happily switch to Baby Spice or Gut" - it's the same kind of reasoning ("there's players who I think are likely to be scum and I'm willing to lynch and [implicitly] there are players who I don't consider likely enough to be town to be lynched") that I've been using today. It's also clear he would prefer to lynch certain players over silavor and is simply settling for an acceptable lynch, which is inconsistent with a scum "doesn't care who gets lynched so long as they're not on my team and I won't get nailed for my vote" mindset.

Also not finding why Tar can even call Zach's big defense post good because everytime I read that hunk of crap all I hear is voices in my head screaming "ZACHISSCUMZACHISSCUMZACHISSCUM".

Oh REALLY now?

You can't see the pro-town indignance at the case on him? (MoI's been trying the same response, but it rings fake to me at an intuitive level in a way that Zach's defense doesn't.)

His defense for being on the SpyreX lynch was crap. He basically acknowledges Gamma has a legitimate point, and then says it was too early game to matter (nevermind that Zach does the same damn thing in his ISO #25). The rest of the defense, "I wasn't online", is unverifiable either way, and thus really doesn't tell us much.

CRAPLOGIC. Zach's defense for being on the SpyreX wagon (to such an extent that one needs a defense for being on a DERPwagon) is EXACTLY the same as mine (actually BETTER than mine, since I checked in when Spy was at about L-2 but didn't realize how close he was to lynch) in EXACTLY the same kind of wagon position.

And that ISO 25 point? Not every point raised against a player is necessarily valid, and it's pro-town to point out bad reasoning.

His defense for the MoI vote is backtracking; even though he initially said that the vote was annoyance, he now adds that he generally finds that action scummy. However, he also adds that MoI never did anything scummy and the way MoI did it wasn't scummy anyways? This seems like a contradiction that comes from scumZach trying to defend his vote on his scumbuddy without incriminating his scumbuddy. When town votes because they find an action scummy, they say so. There is not all this backtracking crap of "Well, the action is normally scummy and I was annoyed, so I voted. This doesn't mean that I actually ever found him scummy, or that he is scummy."

More bull. Zach's point was that he *reconsidered* his belief that MoI's refusal to claim was scummy, decided it wasn't, and acted accordingly. Being willing to reconsider your views is a towntell, albeit a weak one.

He then goes on to defend his Gut read, which apparently is

so good

that anyone who disagrees with it is "scum or not paying attention". This is crap and bullshit, considering all he said on gut is "^scum claim, lynch at will".

Then you're saying that my case and Fate's case on MoI is

His conclusion about Gamma's "big, damning looking" case shows that Zach is intimidated by the size of the case on it, and is pretty damn scummy considering the thing isn't that long in the first place.

Uh, really now? REALLY NOW?

Zach wasn't "intimidated" by Gamma's case, that's a misrep to end all misreps. Zach was showing that

Gamma's "case" on him was - and is - a case that was made by scum

, with a side helping of sarcasm.

OH LOOK I ACCIDENTALLY WROTE A WALL GUESS IM TOWN, EH TAR?
HEHEHEHEHEHE

Oh how you wish this was true, Mr. Scummy McScumbag.

See, the difference is that Zach wrote a wall that simultaneously defended himself and showed that the case against him was not sincere, while *your* wall is trying to paint every last action of an innocent player as scummy. There's a difference. And that difference is that the former is town defense and the latter is a scum attack.

---

I'll comment further on my self-vote and other stuff in a bit. For now:

Unvote, Vote: Magna

[Tarhalindur]

Remember Medieval? Where you harebrained off that confirmed scum couldn't be scum and that my correct lategame reads were wrong? Are you SERIOUSLY going to do that again?

I forget... what did I do in Medieval? Off the bat I remember a few dark tunnels... but we won.

Oh here, why don't I just link to the infamous Vehm QuickTopic.

Just reread all the parts beginning where you kept pushing that scotmany had to be town AFTER another player had flipped town with his claimed role name...

[Tarhalindur]

Serious question of the day: Can anyone think of a good reason why there have been consistent counterwagons at the slightest provocation (silavor, Gut, and now Zach) to the MoI wagon on two separate days if he is town?

[Gammagooey]

Serious question of the day: Can anyone think of a good reason why there have been consistent counterwagons at the slightest provocation (silavor, Gut, and now Zach) to the MoI wagon on two separate days if he is town?

Enough people think he's not scum that they would rather vote other people.

And Tar you're really REALLY looking at Zach and looking for things that make him town instead of going over his play and trying to objectively decide whether he's town or scum. This isn't me saying you're scum by the way, because I really don't think you are. This is me saying you're taking your conclusion and looking for things that fit it instead of going over the evidence and looking for solutions that fit.
If you want I'll go over your points in more detail later tonight.

[Fate]

If anyone hammers Tar after that EXTREMEZ GOODPOSTIN by Tar they will be eviscerated DOUBLEQUICFKTIME


What's the defense of MoI? LITERALLY it all comes down to "lol he refused to claim" which is BULLSHIT and considering the sheer amount of scum in the rest of his posts, I can only think ANY competent calling MoI town is:

A. Loldgb
B. Scum

[Fate]

And you're looking at MoI objectievely?

LOLFUCKNO

Tar sees the same thins I do. I know I'm objective and town=

TWO COMPETENT TOWNIES AGREE ON ZACHTOWNJ AND MOISCUM

WHERE THE FUCK THE REST OF THE TOWN AT?

SHEEPING SCUM?

[Gammagooey]

Fine Fate let's do this.
Go over the individual parts of Tar's towncase on Zach and say which parts are good and amazing and true things that you agree with and why.
And I don't want WELLZZZZ HE'S TOWN SO THE CASE IS RIGHT because that post is more tunnel-vision than a dude driving a car Through the Earth itself.

I will in turn give why Tar's towncase, despite pointing very strongly to Tartown, does not point to Zach-town.
in like an hour because I'm watching TV now.

[Fate]

Shut the fuck up scum.

I have no interest in seeing you twist shit in your favor.

Only interested in seeing things as they are