Mafia Invictus ~ Game Over!

[VitaminR]

Sure, but I'm trying to type up a response to Ban and Magna first.

But in brief: MoI is still scum, Fate, DGB, Nautilius, Tar, and Duplicity are still town. Dunno yet about the others.
And the odd momentum of the MoI wagon in and of itself means nothing.

[VitaminR]

the fact is your Iso is pretty much a straight up fish in a barrel tell hunt, I wouldn't know where to start. You shrug Sila off as town to distance yourself from his inevitable wagon and possible lynch, be that a sign he himself is town I wouldn't venture to guess yet But to completely dismiss him and never talk about him again, barring in mind he is one of the top two wagons today and the second in line for invictus it screams scum to me either way.

That's how I read the silavor hammer. Take it or leave it.

You call Fate's invictus idea 'obviously great' without any rhyme or reason on your end, I think I've made my feelings on that matter clear.

I do think it is the best way of using our Invictus and I haven't seen a good argument against it that's not based on trying to outguess the mod.

And of course you take the time to look up and link games from MOI's past, admitting to taking the time to 'read up on him' yourself, and implying you came to conclusions from this meta. Now I'm no expert on meta in general but I do believe it requires you to take certain posts and playstyles from game A and compare them to certain posts and playstyles from game B, then present your finding to the town as a whole. instead, you take the time to do all this and then choose to chime in with a /agree to someone you've already labeled obv. town. It's bullshit, plain and simple.

In large games, I often only post my conclusions and only outline my thought processes when asked, simply because I don't have the time.

Where did you ever say anything regarding MOI's meta? The only thing you mentioned about MOI that Fate had mentioned was the part about him saying "I caught all this scum blah blah" which had nothing to do with MOI's actual meta when you said it. You claimed it looked "forced", not different from other games.

Alright, I'll outline my thinking. I read up on MoI because I wanted to know if the sort of unreasonable arrogance in his posts was sincere, since the only thing I knew about him was that he was supposed to be a good player. Reading up on MoI, he seems a really reasonable player when he's town and unreasonably confident as scum. His play here seems to lack the nuance of his town game. This was my impression based on just reading the ISOs of the games I linked and a few more. That's what I meant when I referred to his shtick. Fate said a similar thing.

I've also noticed certain things between you and Fate. You both say MOI is pulling "shtick", which is a common enough word but I don't like the coincidence between two people attacking the same person for similar things using the same phrasing. It is an irrelevant detail that proves nothing I know, but it certainly makes me feel this attack on MOI is constructed and both of you are reading from the same script if you catch my drift.

I will admit that Fate doesn't worry me at all. We played together at Goofbash and I feel I can generally read Fate pretty well. I'm pretty sure he's town in this game.

[VitaminR]

1. If find it very unusual that you specifically cropped my response to only the part where I mistakingly attribute to Benmage instead of Ban yet you address elements that you specifically cropped out in your post. Why would you do so? Here’s my full response for anyone interested.

It was just a lay-out choice, really. I thought it'd still be clear.

2. Number one is of note to me because you specifically choose to use only ‘Cronyism’ when I said ‘Cronyism or Buddying’. I find that scummy because you cropped away my response and specifically chose the element that implies you are both Town (Cronyism, which inherently infers players of the same alignment) and avoided directly mentioning the other, Buddying (which implies scum attempting to link themselves to Town for various reasons). That’s suspect when you crop away the full response.

I had no intention of implying anything. Could have just as easily said "cronyism or buddying." I guess I put cronyism because it was the connotations of that word that most annoyed me.

3. You try to out of hand dismiss that it’s a valid tell when it is a strong one in my book. I went back and looked at the sequence of events in the thread to look at you and Fate’s posts regarding Meta.

I never said anything about the strength of buddying as a tell. What I challenged was that one post saying that you agree with someone is strong evidence of buddying.

Here’s your vote. No mention of meta just that some rhetoric (‘it feels wrong’ and 'incredibly forced') basically sheeping Fate.

So the "forced"-comment was based on meta, as I outlined in my response to Ban.

A. Not a mention about how those games show I am scummy via meta … just here’s some games that you think are similar. No reasons why Meta supports me as scum. This isn't giving any opinion, just doing Duplicity's legwork in a suspect manner.

Happened to have the games still open. Simple as.

B. Let’s examine those games – two where I was scum, one where I chose an effective SK route, and one where I was Town. How did you come across those games?

You skipped over my most recently completed Large Theme (Jason’s Superhero Mafia) where I was Town Cop. You also skip over Nik’s Call of Cthulufish and AGM’s Choose Your Side to chronologically find American Gods Mafia. You skip ReaperCharlie’s completely fucked up Metropolis Large Game to get to Storm of Swords and Square Enix 4, Cyclical Experiment, and Blackest Night to get to Stars Aligned 3.

Clearly you aren’t using my wiki (especially since I apparently skipped MetaMafia there somehow whut?) because you skipped over a number of more recent games to drege up Stars Aligned.

I’m very curious why you chose the games you did.

I clicked on your user topics, went to some random older pages to get completed games and looked for Theme Park games (I feel like playstyle can vary quite strongly from a large to a small game).

I addressed what my thought process was around those posts in my reply to Ban, so I won't repeat myself here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, so you haphazardly gathered various games that just happen to support your 'Meta' analysis.

I note that in MetaMafia I was Town and you breezed right over that to say I'm "Unreasonably Arrogant' only as scum. Noted.

Probably your entire "Meta" research was fudged and you got caught. Scumtastic

[quote=VitaminScum]I never said anything about the strength of buddying as a tell. What I challenged was that one post saying that you agree with someone is strong evidence of buddying. [/quote]

Yeah, way to ignore how I carefully laid you that you buddied Fate on multiple occasions. Also scumtastic.

[Nautilius]

Dear Town,

When I flip Town please make sure to Invictus Silavor. And if you can't do him please do Nautilus or Gut.

It's the least you can do after two bad lynches in a row. Especially if somehow you are on both my and Spyrex's lynch and still Town.

Dear Magna,

Please stop trying to tie yourself to the spyrex lynch. This is not a quicklynch, you've had time to defend yourself. This is not an RVS lynch, there is a case against you. You've had plenty of fair warning about this lynch coming, you've been asked to claim... In other words, this lynch is has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON with spyrex's. Your ploy of comparing your lynch to spyrex's lynch is a subtle appeal to fear "you guys are gonna fuck up AGAIN", and I would lynch you 1000 times for that reason alone.

Your suggestion for invictusing silavor is boring and unoriginal. Of course he has to die. He jokehammered in RVS.

As for the other two, I don't understand. But, you're probably just in caughtscum mode and WIFOMing it up, although you're doing a bit badly with it. Next time, start the WIFOM earlier and push less obvious suspects harder.

Love, Nacho.
P.S. Die.

[Gut]

The notion of fudged meta research is laughable.

[VitaminR]

Oh, so you haphazardly gathered various games that just happen to support your 'Meta' analysis.

You have to realise how ridiculous of an accusation this is.

I note that in MetaMafia I was Town and you breezed right over that to say I'm "Unreasonably Arrogant' only as scum. Noted.

Even in Meta, I thought there was a genuine attempt in your posts to understand other people's motivations. This exchange we're having is a great example of why you're different in this game. Every single thing I say you try to twist into something scummy (e.g. how I crop posts (!), which games of yours I randomly picked for meta analysis (!), what word I choose to use, etc.). There is no nuance behind your thinking.

Yeah, way to ignore how I carefully laid you that you buddied Fate on multiple occasions. Also scumtastic.

I outlined my thought process. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about my motivations. Interpret it as you will.

[Benmage]

Nacho, can you bullet for me the case on MoI please.

[Benmage]

Nacho, can you bullet for me the case on MoI please.

[Benmage]

Damn phones.

Vitamin, is you're beef with MoI based mainly on Meta alone? That is to say.... he is more methodical as town, while as scum he is arrogant. And you are accusing him of his scummy arrogance?
-is that the main gist of it, or is there more?

Also, explain to me what scum Fate looks like.

[Benmage]

I know the deadline is drawing real close.. but I still don't know the basis behind half the votes on MoI, or the "main "case in general.

I'm in the airport for home today.... but with work tomorrow, and time running out... I'd like to atleast have a better grasp why MoI will likely see the noose.

I want people to flush out their thought process beforehand before trying to take credit later... or trying to write it off.

There's decent segments of the game unread or barely skimmed by me. So sorry if I'm being a little repetitive here.

[Benmage]

Don't see it myself, but I don't mind sheeping Fate et al. here.

Unvote, vote: MoI

Gut, if you think silavor is scum, why are you more inclined to simply invictus him and sheep fate...

The more effective way of killing scum reads, would be the noose.

[Benmage]

The tone of MoI's post seems a lot different from [redacted].

-inHim

voteMOI

Been meaning to do that ever since I pointed it out. So there.


:tothebatcave:

-inHim

Is there anything more to you're MoI vote other than apparently Meta from an ongoing game....??

What is your view on silavor?

[Vi]

Vote Count VIII:

Against the wall
MagnaofIllusion (L-1) ~ Fate, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, silavor, danceHello, Gut, Gammagooey, Nautilius
silavor (L-4) ~ Duplicity, Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, Ban, Baby Spice
The Illuminati (L-8) ~ DrippingGoofball
Gut (L-8) ~ Zachrulez

(Minimum L-9)

Not Voting:

The Illuminati

-Zachrulez is being prodded...

-MagnaofIllusion is at L-1!

--Deadline is Tuesday, July 12 at 2100 EST.

((expired on 2011-07-12 21:00:00))

[The Illuminati]

Alright, I haven't read the entire game just yet. This read is subject to change and not because I'm a hydra. Just making that clear. I dunno what DH has said so far about silavor but I have no fucking clue why we're not voting this guy right now! That was a terrible hammer! Does anyone have a good reason to not lynch his scummy ass right now?

Vote: silavor

I don't see the MoI wagon either. Is it the Fate effect? I don't sheep Fate, thank you very much.

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire game, something I plan on fixing. But I don't have any problem at all, thank you very much, with voting this guy right here.

~Seraphim

[Gammagooey]

There's a lot of people sheeping Fate and a bit of wagon weirdness and MoI's aggressive superconfident play immediately after that same style bit him in the ass in two other games.
Get sila to L-1 though and I'll hammer him to hell and back.

[The Illuminati]

Well just explain to me how "wagon weirdness" and MoI playing, for him, par for the course points to him as scum over lololol Day 1 is seven pages HAMMA TIME silavor.

Just think...your vote gets him to L-2. You could be the shift that leads us to victory, Gamma!

~Sera

[Ban]

Sorry I've been awol for so long. Work just got through kicking my ass double time. Sorry everybody, sorry... so sorry... Ehhh who am I kidding, I'm too tired to actually care...

lets see... blah blah blah, Faterage... blah blah blah, Disapointing Gamma... blah blah blah... Oh vitaminRon! Woohoo!

That's how I read the silavor hammer. Take it or leave it.

Ok I choose to take it... now it's mine and you're left with nothing... So... not what are you going to do? Huh? That's right...

No I'm fine with you getting a town read on him, I'm just not fine with you ignoring him for the rest of the day. 'hey see that guy over there everyone is arguing about killing or not killing? yeah I'm just going to ignore him even though I have a fairly firm stance on him...' Doesn't really strike me as the proper attitude.

I do think it is the best way of using our Invictus and I haven't seen a good argument against it that's not based on trying to outguess the mod.

Fair enough.

In large games, I often only post my conclusions and only outline my thought processes when asked, simply because I don't have the time.

Well up until now I would argue you didn't even post your conclusions. Literally all you said was /agree with fate. that isn't a conclusion, that's nothing.

Alright, I'll outline my thinking. I read up on MoI because I wanted to know if the sort of unreasonable arrogance in his posts was sincere, since the only thing I knew about him was that he was supposed to be a good player. Reading up on MoI, he seems a really reasonable player when he's town and unreasonably confident as scum. His play here seems to lack the nuance of his town game. This was my impression based on just reading the ISOs of the games I linked and a few more. That's what I meant when I referred to his shtick. Fate said a similar thing.

I'm willing to buy that. Are you saying you did the ISO before or after your post 344?

I will admit that Fate doesn't worry me at all. We played together at Goofbash and I feel I can generally read Fate pretty well. I'm pretty sure he's town in this game.

Oh yeah, rub that in my face... 'Hey ban I was at goofbash! I shook the president's hand. I sleep with super models.' You know what, screw you... >.> I do alright for myself... and I've shaken people who look like the president's hands... so... Stop being a jerk when you talk in my head...

[Gammagooey]

But I want someone dead so very very bad.

Me and Fate went over the wagon weirdness and took up like a full page. Basically I'd normally expect scum on a town wagon to at least justify their reads so they look better than other people on it when the person flips town. Here it's LURKSVILLE EVERYWHERE FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.
And the only real difference of me being the hammer as opposed to an earlier vote is the satisfaction and it makes MoI also further away from death until the final vote does come. If you can get Fate or someone else to agree to hammer then I'll be the L-1 vote but I don't feel like changing right now.

As for the non-wagon stuff it's basically this- I have a hard time seeing MoI-town saying

Anyway I’ve delivered you a bunch of scum – Nautlius, Gut, Silavor, possibly danceHello. Get to work people, I’ve done the heavy lifting.

in his iso 2 with that aggressive and sureness after he just had experiences with his aggressive confident playstyle failing in Metamafia and similar stuff in an ongoing game.

[Fate]

Someone. Fucking. Hammer. Scum.

[Fate]

DGB, why in the HELL are you not voting a main wagon and sitting off spouting wagon analysis?

[Baby Spice]

From what I see, the MoI wagon is pure arrogance meta, but I don't see it. I think MoI is this arrogant all the time.

Sil's hammer is pure scum though. The umming and stuff.

Still think Fates actions around the wagon was worse.

Also think DGB's 'scumputer' is pure bull designed to hide any real reasons/ or lack of reasons, for her reads.

[Gammagooey]

DGB uses the scumputer as town and scum.
Hell she even told us to stay off the main two wagons when I got scum with her in Pledge of Allegiance.
She BELIEVES in its power.

[Benmage]

Zach and DGB need to commit to a main wagon. I dont care if they dont like either one..not acting is essentially acting.

Pick the lesser of 2 evils.. like presidential voting.. and vote.

[Benmage]

Gamma Get on SILA! The MoI wagon can't fathomable-ly be worse...

Fate- Rage, meta. (Is there more?)
Tarhalindur- Zero reasoning/Fate Sheep...Goes on to post 424, accuses MoI of a scum reaction.
VitaminR- Meta.
silavor- NO EXPLANATION TALKS ABOUT BABY THEN VOTES MoI SEEEE
danceHello -Meta from an ONGOING game!!
Gut -Fate sheep, DESPITE thinking Sila scum.
Gammagooey- W/E is conftown willing to vote Sila... vote Sila!
Nautilius- NO explanation. Sheeps Fate. Jokes. Then actually tells MoI shes had time to defend herself... DEFEND FROM WHAT??

Are u guys fucking kidding me... This couldn't be a worse lynch.

Then the opposing option is SILA!!! And I have to pull teeth here...wow....