NY135: Sexy Sedilla Semi-Open - Town Wins

MrZepher · Post Post #975 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:22 pm

!~//

WALL.

//~!

Scum: Saporovirus, Mastin, Yosarian
Other scum: Kanye, Idher, Kunkstar
Null: Spyrex, Chair
Townier than null: KoC, Oversoul

The following explanations are in ISO format, purely because it was easier to actively form my thoughts that way.
These are the notes that I basically just copy pasted from MS Word and edited a little so they don't look like a mess.
There are real post numbers in the ISO now so I didn't wanna garble up my notes with links and whatnot.

Spoiler:

Any questions?

Knight of Cydonia · Post Post #976 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:54 pm

Uh, yeah. I have 30 posts in this thread. You picked out a whole 1 in your ISO. Really?

Reeeally?

Knight of Cydonia · Post Post #977 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:55 pm

Oh god fucking dammit I meant to hit preview. EBWOP - That whole "wall" stinks of skimming and an attempt at :goodposting:.

Chair · Post Post #978 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:14 pm

kanyeknowsbest wrote:I'd also like to note that my top three choices all avoided empking wagon

Why does this matter? Empking was

bookied

- if anything, I'd expect scum to be more inclined to jump on the wagon since bussing gives towncred, the lynch was inevitable, and they needed it to happen that day or either the bookie would fail or they would have to use another shot of it (depending on how many shots their bookie has). Is it scummy to have not been on the emp wagon?

kanye wrote:
my reasons for voting had nothing to to with quil's reasoning on ythan/ethos. i also was not backpedaling on anything? i was attacking the fact that he gave himself an excuse to stop posting but then did not take it. it was hardly influential in my decision to vote him. the majority of my reasoning for voting ethos was tied up in his interactions with parabollocks and the argument he had with spyrex and ythan, as well as his attempts to constantly use meta. and i do in fact believe that using meta is scummy.

You mentioned explicitly that you agreed with quil's reasoning and that you had a townread on Ythan (implying a scumread on Ethos) in the same post that you voted for Ethos. I assume from this that quilford's reasoning is part of your reasoning on your vote. When I talked about backpedaling, i was referring to a term that you yourself used in the same post.

If those are your main reasons for the Ethos vote, then firstly: what about his parabollocks interactions/argument with spyrex/ythan was scummy? Why didn't you mention these interactions in the initial post where you voted him? Secondly, what scum motivation is there to use meta arguments? Why is any given person more likely to use meta arguments as scum than they are to use meta arguments as town (if there's no reason for this, then you can't justify Ethos using meta as a reason for voting him)?

kanye wrote:
Chair #873 wrote:First paragraph: I don't feel like I was being overdefensive about the hydra point - I was just responding to it. The "others flipping town implicating me" thing was me asking spyrex to clarify something - I wanted to know if he meant that we were just his third strongest scumread, or if there was a specific reason that ethos/para flipping town would cause him to have a scumread on us (i.e. a connection). As for "fake attempts at scumhunting," you calling them fake doesn't make them fake. You haven't explained how anything that we've said looks like "fake scumhunting" to you - and unless you do, your argument is invalid.

@487: how have I not detailed my argument on Spyrex? I explained it in-depth in 415... did you not read that post? did you just ignore it? As for not voting on the suspicion, why if I was scum would I even need to give myself an excuse to not vote spyrex? Why couldn't I, as scum, just vote him and say Misder agreed with me? Why is it a scum behavior to use that to justify not voting Spyrex when as scum I could just as easily have voted him?
@695: essentially, when I was saying that, it was because of Spyrex's playstyle. The way that Spyrex is playing, I feel, will make it easier to read him as the game goes on. His attempt to develop a voting block, for example, will mean more after more people in that voting block have flipped. I also want to see how his reads develop as the game goes on.
@754: Untrod was the scumread that Misder and I had the most agreement about. The list of "more likely scum" was just listing people that weren't in my town list, which is why I went through all of them to get better individual reads. As for "not committing to anything" - this is just a ridiculous accusation.
that post wrote:
So My main scumreads would be kanye, untrod, zepher (but he hasn't posted yet so we'll see), and spyrex. I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him.

I "commit" to scumreads in this line. Again, did you miss this line or ignore it? Also, why should town commit to reads in the first place? The game is constantly shifting with new information every day - why should anyone but scum commit completely to any particular read? Why is there more scum motivation to "not commit" to reads than there is town motivation?

You're right, calling it fake doesn't make it fake. I said that it felt to me like it was fake, that you were doing it for the sake of appearing to want to scum hunt. I admit, this is a very subjective point.
re: 695, I still don't get why you need to point out that a lynch on someone you think is null isn't necessary "today."
re: 754, the important part is this: "claims that empking is leaning town? he then says he would not be against the empking lynch." Your top read is UT, empking is leaning town for you. But you are not opposed to abandoning your top read and making sure you are on the empking wagon. We can happily look at this in retrospect knowing that empking was scum and it makes sense why you would want to make sure you were on a scum wagon if it had to go through.
Your point about "committing" to reads is a bit of a strawman. Not once did I mention anything about that and your attacking and easily refuting my phantom argument doesn't really say much. My main point was that you are setting these reads up and conflicting this way and that but it did not feel like you actually had any interest in pushing any of those reads. My point above re: 754 only aids this. This returns to my point about it feeling like you were fake scumhunting.

As far as the hydra thing goes, I don't like your play for the same reason that I did not like that of Ethos. You can express to us that you have dissent between the heads leaving you free to flip flop to whichever side you want. I agree that reads are an ever changing thing and sticking steadfastly to them is just being obstinate, but the way that you are setting up the dissent between yourself feels manufactured to me.

Chair, could you update us on your reads and where you believe everyone stands?

If you can't justify why you see it as fake, then your point has no merit. 695: Iirc, someone asked me why I wasn't voting Spyrex. I explained why. 754: first of all, the deadline was fast approaching at that point. As I also explained in that post, Empking is difficult for me to read. I have no idea what you're talking about in "making sure that i was on the empking wagon" - I said I was willing to lynch empking because the deadline was approaching and I think the empking wagon was bigger at that point, and there was also a Yos wagon, and I would have pushed an Emp lynch over a Yos lynch by far. I understand the point you're trying to make, but why if I was trying to keep an option to jump on Emp open would I not have joined his lynch wagon? Isn't it a simpler explanation that it was close to deadline and I wanted to ensure that there would be a lynch?

kanye's 806 wrote:he wants to appear like he is scum hunting without having to commit to anything. i don't like it at all.

So yes, you DID in fact mention EXACTLY that. I'm not strawmanning you at all. As for not having interest in pushing reads - I'll admit that we haven't been pushing reads very hard. I've explained why I didn't push spyrex day one, we did push untrod to an extent (and get him lynched). I find reads easier to develop over the course of the game - I'm more confident in my reads now than i was on day one to a very large extent. At this point, Misder and I feel strongly about kanyescum, so I'm pushing kanye hard. I'll probably be pushing Spyrex fairly hard tomorrow if kanye is lynched.
As for my reads:
01. saporovirus - null
02. MrZepher - null
04. mastin2 - town
05. Knight of Cydonia - null
06. kanyeknowsbest - scum
07. Îdher - town
09. SpyreX - scum
15. Oversoul - town
16. kunkstar7 - null
17. Yosarian2 - town
I know Misder agrees on my scumreads and townreads. I don't know what he thinks of the people I currently see as null.

MrZepher · Post Post #979 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:44 pm

Knight of Cydonia wrote:Uh, yeah. I have 30 posts in this thread. You picked out a whole 1 in your ISO. Really?
Reeeally?

I read through the game and picked out things that stood out to me.
To be honest I wasn't giving too much attention to you since you were a town read early on.
You haven't said anything particularly scummy and you're making an obvious effort to scumhunt.

Mind telling me what exactly makes my wall "stink of skimming".
And it's at the town's best efforts to try to :goodpost:, it's not my say whether I did or not in my post.

SpyreX · Post Post #980 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:48 pm

So its late but like I promised (and I wont get into too many details on site posts but):

Ythan, kanye and Îdher are town. Hiraki and parabollocks are scum.

Unvote, vote: parabollocks

-implosion

Early game blah blah but pay attention to how this ties into the two below.

So we've talked.

Dramonic- we agreed that he's null for now, but he goes V/LA before actually posting anything significant
Ethos- Conflicted views (Misder- I read him as scummy- its questionable, but I feel hes defensive) (implosion- unsure, but gut reaction is townsided)

Hiraki- town read

Idher- still town read

Kanye- Conflicted between the heads (Misder- I read as town-sided) (implosion- leaning towards scum)

Knight- town read

Kunk- needs to post more, can't get a read off of what he's posted
Oversoul- town read
Parabollocks- scum read
Quilford- town read

Spyrex- meh. (Misder- I can't read him and I put him as null) (implosion- posts feels off, gut reaction is scum)

Swag- (Misder- I have to decide whether I view his posts as noobtown or noobscum, and I'm leaning noobscum) (implosion- no real reads yet)

T-bone- (Misder- I say hes town) (implosion- no real reads yet)

The Mask- needs to post more, can't get a read off of what he's posted
Tripod- (Misder- I say hes scummy) (implosion- no real reads yet)

Ythan- town read

Also- implosion wants me to ask you Spyrex- why did you add "Is this already at L-1?" to the end of your 162? That line bothers him.

Unvote Since Para is getting a replacement, we feel like replacement deserves a chance.

-Misder

This is the first list. This is important because of the bolded.

Hiraki
KKB
KoC
T-Bone
SpyreX
Ythan

Ythan, I understand why he's on there. Spyrex, it makes sense to put oneself on there. Hiraki, I also understand. But knight, t-bone and kanye? I can understand townreads on these people - but it seems like spyrex has ridiculously strong townreads on them for this point in the game. Especially t-bone and kanye. I also just kind of don't like the proposition of a 6-person voting block when: A, there are plenty of people that still have barely posted; B, it's only a 17-person game and 6 people is 2/3 of a lynch wagon; and C, there's no town reason to have such damn strong town reads on these people. Another notable point:

Now, you'll notice something. My list, the one he took such great umbrage with?

None of those reads are scum by the bipolar hydra.

The closest, the CLOSEST, is me. At "ohh, teehee he's null / ohh, teehee he's scum."

Further, at the start of the game he didn't have any issues with calling out town reads. Consider that post the classic one in three. And I totally expected a scum to have itchy feet about that. My bet? I was right and we're looking at a clean town sweep in there.

That's the important bit. That shapes it.

The rest of the iso? When he's not talking about me D1 or "waiting for his hyrda partner" we get nothing.

Until this:

I’m back from out of town. Honestly though, I haven’t read through the thread carefully yet.

Implosion however has provided a list for me to post:
Town reads: dram, ethos, hiraki, oversoul, t-bone, yos2, ythan, îdher, knight

He also comments that this game is a game where he’s better at finding strong town reads than scum reads.
And that Spyrex lynch is not necessary today.

We do agree with Ethos that UT has been even scummier. I also want to note how he’s been on both the Para/Yos wagon and the Ethos wagon, seemingly always jumping on a bandwagon.

Vote Untrod Tripod

We are okay with a Quilford/
Emp
lynch, although honestly, neither of us get a strong scum read from them.

-Misder

Vote town, FoS buddy while saying they dont actually think their scum. Noice.

And since its a giant wall I'll just link: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3161166

Holding hands with mastin town mctowntown? Check.
Saying I'm scum but not attacking because "its not the right time"? Check.
Saying empking is "null by definition"? Check.
Being a "helper" about the deadline? Check.

-----

So we come out to D2 and we get this:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p3176073

This is a scum position. A live scum partner IS better than two shots. Further, when it swings against who looks all the better because scum are going to want to get the bookied target lynched? Yep. He's the scum off.

And, of course, not another post that day.

-----

Sans defense or other shenanigans:

VOTE: kanye
I've explained why he's scum. 754 had my primary case (so far) on him. There was also more in 869 and 873. He never responded to any of these. I may coalesce a case in one post on him at some point soon. He's the best lynch for today.

At this point, Misder and I agree on kanye and spyrex as scum. Mastin's post with one of {us, spyrex} and one of {kanye, yos} was good, and I agree with it.

The thing, the ONE thing you'd think a town-hyrda would do here? Mention that KKB had a higher chance of being scum because he was on the Emp wagon.

Of course, that's hard to do when you're scum. Better blame this on mastin on the way out.

---

This is scum. This is how scum play.

Chair · Post Post #981 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:28 pm

SpyreX wrote:Now, you'll notice something. My list, the one he took such great umbrage with? None of those reads are scum by the bipolar hydra.

The closest, the CLOSEST, is me. At "ohh, teehee he's null / ohh, teehee he's scum."

This is a strawman representation of what I said.

chair wrote:Ythan, I understand why he's on there. Spyrex, it makes sense to put oneself on there. Hiraki, I also understand. But knight, t-bone and kanye? I can understand townreads on these people -
but it seems like spyrex has ridiculously strong townreads on them for this point in the game.
Especially t-bone and kanye. I also just kind of don't like the proposition of a 6-person voting block when: A, there are plenty of people that still have barely posted; B, it's only a 17-person game and 6 people is 2/3 of a lynch wagon; and C,
there's no town reason to have such damn strong town reads on these people.

I was never criticizing your list for being full of people that I thought were scummy - I was criticizing

you

because I didn't see any possible way that early in the game to justify such ridiculously strong town reads on so many people. You said something like "If these people were the only ones alive and the game wasn't over, i'd be genuinely surprised" - this implies

extremely

confident reads. I was criticizing you because such strong reads were, I thought, impossible to justify at that point in the game. See point A in my quoted post for more reason about that.

Although, this is a beautiful example of a strawman argument... you take what I was saying (unjustifiably strong townreads), say that I was saying something else (that people on the list were scum) when I NEVER said anything VAGUELY like this, and then attack that new position ("but they never called these people scum!!!")

SpyreX wrote:Vote town, FoS buddy while saying they dont actually think their scum. Noice.

And since its a giant wall I'll just link: viewtopic.php?p=3161166#p3161166

Holding hands with mastin town mctowntown? Check.
Saying I'm scum but not attacking because "its not the right time"? Check.
Saying empking is "null by definition"? Check.
Being a "helper" about the deadline? Check.

First point: no, it wasn't a fos. I explained this in the response to kanye above - the deadline was approaching and an emp wagon existed while a UT wagon, I believe, didn't. You're right, I didn't say he was scum. I didn't say he was a fos. I said he was null leaning town and that in the event of needing to lynch empking to get a lynch through, that we would support his wagon (especially over yos's).
"holding hands with mastin" I'll assume that by this, you mean the way that I stated my reads... I was planning to do this before I saw mastin's post. I find it easier to townhunt than to scumhunt in many cases. I don't see how it's scummy either, seeing as you seem to imply that it is.
I explained why it was, as you put, "not the right time." Several times in fact. You quoting it and twisting my/misder's words to sound scummy does not make it scummy.
Empking is null by definition in my opinion. Again - you quoting something doesn't make it scummy.
we were being a "helper" about the deadline because we didn't want there to be a nolynch - AGAIN, you twisting our words doesn't make it scummy in the slightest... calling us a "helper" doesn't make us scummy IN THE SLIGHTEST... sure, there's a possible scum motivation for helping with the deadline (wanting to look like town). There's also a very OBVIOUS town motivation (the desire to have a lynch). You haven't justified why one of these is more likely than the other.

Spyrex wrote:This is a scum position. A live scum partner IS better than two shots. Further, when it swings against who looks all the better because scum are going to want to get the bookied target lynched? Yep. He's the scum off.

And, of course, not another post that day.

First of all, the last sentence is a blatant LIE, that was not our only post that day...
As for scum not wanting to be on the wagon, this is in a sense at some point a wifom argument... scum will want to be on the wagon because it'll give towncred because empking is scum, but they'll want to be off because it looks scummy to be on bookied scum. In the end, it boils down to two things:
1) scum needed to push that wagon in order to get the bookie through.
2) if the wagon had failed that day and we had gone with a different lynch and lynched empking later,

scum would have lost that bookie shot.

scum HAD to push the wagon THAT DAY. This isn't a normal lynch wagon - it's a wagon that the scum needed to go through THAT DAY to get the bookie. Even if they had a second/third/whatever shot, they would have wanted to save those extra shots.

SpyreX wrote:The thing, the ONE thing you'd think a town-hyrda would do here? Mention that KKB had a higher chance of being scum because he was on the Emp wagon.

Of course, that's hard to do when you're scum. Better blame this on mastin on the way out.

Um. what. why. what. what does this mean. why is this. what the fuck does this mean... why would you "expect" town to say this... why wouldn't scum say this...

In summary: this anti-us wall has a lot of "paraphrased" quotes from us that are rephrased in ways to make them sound scummier and about two or three places where spyrex overtly calls something scummy or explains why something we've done is scummy, one of which is just a damn blatant misrepresentation of the truth, and at least one other blatant lie.

~implosion

SpyreX · Post Post #982 (ISO) » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:35 pm

I'll deal with the rest in the morn but:

And, of course, not another post that day.

You are right. I misspoke there (go go no editng).

And, of course, not another useful post that day.

You had two more posts that day:

One flinging mud with KKB and the other saying "we need more everyone".

My bad.

Yosarian2 · Post Post #983 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:59 am

MrZepher wrote:

• #920 Hiraki was so obviously NOT town. I have no idea why you’d say that.

Um, he was town. He's dead, we know his alignment. Also, I was saying he was town all game, it was pretty clear from his posting.

Anyway, it's bizzare that you would do an ISO on me and then not mention all the actual important stuff I did, like how when I replaced in I was at lynch -2, and I defended the other main suspect (Ethos, town), the #3 suspect (Hiraki, town), and instead went after Quilford (scum) who only had one vote on him at a time. You know, the stuff that townies actually look at when they're trying to figure out someone's alignment, like how did they intearact with known scum, how did they react under pressure, did their actions seem to be pro-town or anti-town, ect.

It wouldn't be so bad if you looked at all that and then created a case that I was distancing or something, but it seems like you just skimmed through my posts, ignored everything that actually mattered, picked out a few things you could attack me on, and then called me scum.

The rest of your post is pretty terrible, too. The day 1 scum wagon on Empking that forced him into a bad claim was pushed by Îdher, me, Saporovirus, and kunkstar7, and you just called ALL of us scum, which is just beyond absurd. You didn't even mention the day 1 quilford/ empking wagon in ANY of your ISO analysis. What kind of townie tries to read and analyze the whole game but ignores the sucessfull wagon-to-a-claim made against a scum?

Vote stays.

xRECKONERx · Post Post #984 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:34 am

Chair (2): SpyreX, kanyeknowsbest
kanyeknowsbest (3): mastin2, Chair, saporovirus
MrZepher (1): Yosarian2

Not voting: Îdher, Oversoul, kunkstar7, MrZepher, Knight of Cydonia

With

11

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.
mastin2 is V/LA until Monday June 11th.
Deadline is in (expired on 2011-07-19 23:00:00).

SpyreX · Post Post #985 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:19 pm

He I was never criticizing your list for being full of people that I thought were scummy - I was criticizing you because I didn't see any possible way that early in the game to justify such ridiculously strong town reads on so many people. You said something like "If these people were the only ones alive and the game wasn't over, i'd be genuinely surprised" - this implies extremely confident reads. I was criticizing you because such strong reads were, I thought, impossible to justify at that point in the game. See point A in my quoted post for more reason about that.

Although, this is a beautiful example of a strawman argument... you take what I was saying (unjustifiably strong townreads), say that I was saying something else (that people on the list were scum) when I NEVER said anything VAGUELY like this, and then attack that new position ("but they never called these people scum!!!")

Ohh NOES STRAWMAN.

Leaving aside the fact you had no problem coming out with strong reads early on that's not the point:

If I'm right about that list (and I think I am) scum can't just let it happen. However, a full frontal attack is suicide AND just furthers my goals. So, you've got to prod at it and poke at it. Something along the lines of "Ohh, look at your

confident

reads." trying to spark doubt (and its not like this was a page 3 list).

So, I'm 'attacking your original argument' with the added bonus of showing very clearly you don't have a leg to stand on because those MATCH YOUR OWN READS.

First point: no, it wasn't a fos. I explained this in the response to kanye above - the deadline was approaching and an emp wagon existed while a UT wagon, I believe, didn't. You're right, I didn't say he was scum. I didn't say he was a fos. I said he was null leaning town and that in the event of needing to lynch empking to get a lynch through, that we would support his wagon (especially over yos's).
"holding hands with mastin" I'll assume that by this, you mean the way that I stated my reads... I was planning to do this before I saw mastin's post. I find it easier to townhunt than to scumhunt in many cases. I don't see how it's scummy either, seeing as you seem to imply that it is.
I explained why it was, as you put, "not the right time." Several times in fact. You quoting it and twisting my/misder's words to sound scummy does not make it scummy.
Empking is null by definition in my opinion. Again - you quoting something doesn't make it scummy.
we were being a "helper" about the deadline because we didn't want there to be a nolynch - AGAIN, you twisting our words doesn't make it scummy in the slightest... calling us a "helper" doesn't make us scummy IN THE SLIGHTEST... sure, there's a possible scum motivation for helping with the deadline (wanting to look like town). There's also a very OBVIOUS town motivation (the desire to have a lynch). You haven't justified why one of these is more likely than the other.

Will

1.) Semantics doesn't change "I'd be ok with lynching him" being an expression of suspicion.
2.)
"Not to imitate mastin, but this leaves for the most likely scum as far as i can tell: kanye, untrod, spyrex, empking, kunkstar, saporo, mrzepher."

This isn't "I agree with mastins reads and this is why" this is a parrot. This is holding hands with mastin.
3.) No one is 'null by definition'. That is a meta copout that with him flipping scum and you going "Ohh I'm ok with this lynch" it sure as hell wasn't null. In fact, IN THAT POST, you went "he's kind of townish" too. So even you don't believe he's null.
4.) There was never, ever going to not be a lynch. Pushing UT and going "deadline comin guys" is bunk.

As for scum not wanting to be on the wagon, this is in a sense at some point a wifom argument... scum will want to be on the wagon because it'll give towncred because empking is scum, but they'll want to be off because it looks scummy to be on bookied scum. In the end, it boils down to two things:
1) scum needed to push that wagon in order to get the bookie through.
2) if the wagon had failed that day and we had gone with a different lynch and lynched empking later, scum would have lost that bookie shot. scum HAD to push the wagon THAT DAY. This isn't a normal lynch wagon - it's a wagon that the scum needed to go through THAT DAY to get the bookie. Even if they had a second/third/whatever shot, they would have wanted to save those extra shots. Post

This isn't a function of WIFOM. Its a scum win-win in all scenarios but a different scum getting lynched. Either you have Empking another day OR you get to shots that night.

You came in and went "lol bookie" and "lol meta" and then...threw mud at KKB your next post and then went "we need more talking guys!" and no where in there even laid a vote down.

3 Um. what. why. what. what does this mean. why is this. what the fuck does this mean... why would you "expect" town to say this... why wouldn't scum say this...

In summary: this anti-us wall has a lot of "paraphrased" quotes from us that are rephrased in ways to make them sound scummier and about two or three places where spyrex overtly calls something scummy or explains why something we've done is scummy, one of which is just a damn blatant misrepresentation of the truth, and at least one other blatant lie.

~implosion

Why would I expect town to actually use things that have happened to adjust their reads versus the same agenda? GOORSH.

/strawman /misrep /lie

/emo

Vote Chair 2011

Chair · Post Post #986 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:40 pm

Spyrex wrote:Ohh NOES STRAWMAN.

[sarcasm]I like how this responds to my point.[/sarcasm]

Spyrex wrote:If I'm right about that list (and I think I am) scum can't just let it happen. However, a full frontal attack is suicide AND just furthers my goals. So, you've got to prod at it and poke at it. Something along the lines of "Ohh, look at your confident reads." trying to spark doubt (and its not like this was a page 3 list).

Well lets see. There's one main problem with this. It ignores my argument. My argument was that I never said that the people on your wagon were scummy, and therefore that you were misrepresenting what I said. Well, seeing as you never responded to this... or even mentioned it... i'm going to assume that you have no response for it because you're scum.

Now, anyway, to respond to what you DID say... here, you did represent my argument more accurately. However, your logic is still flawed for two reasons:
1) it assumes that every single person on that list is town.
2) it assumes that I'm scum.
1) is obvious, and I think you'd agree that you're assuming that with this argument. I'd also note that you really haven't justified everyone on that list as being town. In order to justify this, you'd either have to justify individual townreads (which you really haven't done) or just justify it by saying that the whole list is town because i'm scum (in which case, you can't use it as an argument against me as it would be circular).l.,uuuuyyuyhyyyh As for 2), here's how it assumes that I'm scum. Lets say that every single person you listed is, by some chance, town. Then my behavior could be two things:
A) scum - I am, as you said, prodding at it.
B) town - I disagree with you and think that your suggestion was indicative of you being scum, and am voicing my disagreement and opinion.
There is no reason that you have given that it can't be B). Now, your response to this will be something like "but all of the people on the list are town, the scum are going to prod at it and you were prodding the hardest" - well, see subpoint 1). And more than that, scum wouldn't even necessarily prod at it - it's conceivable that scum would just ignore it in the hopes that it would dissipate (if it were all town, which I'm pretty damn sure it isn't) and then attack it if it didn't. There's no reason to assume that my behavior is scum behavior when there's a town motivation for my actions and you haven't explained why the scum motivation is more likely.

SpyreX wrote:1.) Semantics doesn't change "I'd be ok with lynching him" being an expression of suspicion.
2.)
"Not to imitate mastin, but this leaves for the most likely scum as far as i can tell: kanye, untrod, spyrex, empking, kunkstar, saporo, mrzepher."

This isn't "I agree with mastins reads and this is why" this is a parrot. This is holding hands with mastin.
3.) No one is 'null by definition'. That is a meta copout that with him flipping scum and you going "Ohh I'm ok with this lynch" it sure as hell wasn't null. In fact, IN THAT POST, you went "he's kind of townish" too. So even you don't believe he's null.
4.) There was never, ever going to not be a lynch. Pushing UT and going "deadline comin guys" is bunk.

1) well, I thought your post was supposed to be a case. Rhetoric is not a case. If you're just using rhetoric to say "I fos implosion" then that's well and dandy. It still doesn't explain why you fos me or why my actions are scummy, and doesn't therefore qualify as a case.
2) it is in a way a parrot, because I saw him do essentially exactly what I had been planning to do and found it noteworthy. I don't see why you seem to say that this is scum-motivated. Are you saying I'm buddying him? I just find a similar method of stating my reads convenient, and found that noteworthy. it's as simple as that.
3) meta, yes. A copout, no. I find Empking unreadable, which should be understandable considering what experience I have with him (I mentioned it earlier, he faked mason as doc thinking he was vt in a game i was in). I had him as leaning town for some reason that I stated at the time. I had empking as null leaning town. Again, me being okay with the emp lynch was because it was near deadline and he and yos were the two wagons that existed at that point, and I had yos as town.
4) yes, there wouldn't have been a nolynch because people are vigilant enough to make sure that there isn't one. However, deadline still makes it necessary to hurry. Our UT vote was partially because there was already a vote on him and partially because he was the scumread that we had the most agreement on at that point.

SpyreX wrote:This isn't a function of WIFOM. Its a scum win-win in all scenarios but a different scum getting lynched. Either you have Empking another day OR you get to shots that night.

You came in and went "lol bookie" and "lol meta" and then...threw mud at KKB your next post and then went "we need more talking guys!" and no where in there even laid a vote down.

I agree. For the scum, either empking is alive another day (not lynched) or they get a second kill (lynched). Now, if you admit this... then why in the WORLD are you trying to use that wagon to find scum? In fact, I'd go so far as to say that

the following two quotes from SpyreX are directly contradictory

:

A live scum partner IS better than two shots. Further, when it swings against who looks all the better because scum are going to want to get the bookied target lynched?

This isn't a function of WIFOM. Its a scum win-win in all scenarios but a different scum getting lynched. Either you have Empking another day OR you get to shots that night.

Either it's a win/win or one is better than the other. You can't say both things.

Spyrex wrote:Why would I expect town to actually use things that have happened to adjust their reads versus the same agenda? GOORSH.

Sooooo.... when exactly did I say that kanye is more likely scum for having been on the emp wagon? IN FACT, if you think that those off the wagon are more likely to be scum (see contradictory quote number one), why would you expect me to criticize him for being

ON

the wagon?

FTR: I don't see those on the wagon or off the wagon as being particularly scummy for their position at this point. I said that it's essentially wifom. So, Spyrex is criticizing me for not having stated an opinion to push kanye; an opinion which I do not hold. I referred to all of my previous posts on the matter in that post. If I had said that at some point, I would have referred to it anyway. If this isn't a reaching attack, I honestly don't know what is. It attacks me for NOT SAYING SOMETHING. In this attack, he isn't criticizing things we've said, he's criticizing something i DIDN'T say. Something that I not only didn't say, but that I disagree with!

-implosion

SpyreX · Post Post #987 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:26 pm

I want to start by pointing out to the masses my SUPER SECRET breadcrumb in my last post: He will post (in) 3 (hours).

Because there was no doubt it would happen. Because he's here and has been here. Just like putting their head in the sand on empking day.

I will deal with that whole mess in a bit but lets cut to the chase:

4) yes, there wouldn't have been a nolynch because people are vigilant enough to make sure that there isn't one. However, deadline still makes it necessary to hurry. Our UT vote was partially because there was already a vote on him and partially because he was the scumread that we had the most agreement on at that point.

Bullll shit.

There was no votes on UT when you voted. In fact, this is the first votecount after your UT vote:

Yosarian2 (3): Swag136, Knight of Cydonia, Untrod Tripod
Hiraki (2): dramonic, Empking
Îdher (1): Oversoul
Empking (5): Îdher, Ethos, kunkstar7, saporovirus, Yosarian2
Oversoul (1): Hiraki
Chair (1): SpyreX
Untrod Tripod (2): Chair, mastin2

Not voting: kanyeknowsbest, T-Bone

So the lynch you were "ok" with was an actual viable wagon at the point you tossed down your throwaway vote that then lived there for the rest of the day.
You said you were ok with an emp lynch when he was a viable wagon and before you gave your read on him being 'townish' + qualified garbage.
Both of these happened before emp claimed which is the only thing that saved his ass.

Chair · Post Post #988 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Sorry, the UT having a vote on him other than us was from when I decided to keep the vote on him after I took a larger look through the game:

I'm leaving our vote on untrod for now, since misder has a scumread on him and deadline is approaching and there's another vote on him. Empking wagon going through wouldn't be too bad. Yos wagon going through would be bad. I'll move our vote to emp if necessary for a deadline lynch.

Misder was the one that initially put our vote on UT.

You said you were ok with an emp lynch when he was a viable wagon and before you gave your read on him being 'townish' + qualified garbage.
Both of these happened before emp claimed which is the only thing that saved his ass.

Actually, yes, this is true. We said we were okay with am empking lynch before I looked through the game and decided that I thought he was null leaning town. As I've explained probably four or five times at this point, there were Empking and Yos2 wagons. Our first choice for a lynch at that point was UT. If that wagon didn't develop and, say, there were competing Yos2 and Emp wagons, I was indicating that we would go for the emp wagon over the yos2 wagon.

SpyreX · Post Post #989 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:10 pm

Or, if you will, FoS Buddy, vote town.

MrZepher · Post Post #990 (ISO) » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:43 pm

Yosarian2 wrote:
Um, he was town. He's dead, we know his alignment. Also, I was saying he was town all game, it was pretty clear from his posting.

I guess that you missed how that was supposed to be a past tense statement. Hiraki had a pretty crappy way of playing town. I think it was an awesome vig shot.
It wouldn't have been beneficial for town to have him in a LYLO situation anyways.

Yosarian2 wrote:
Anyway, it's bizzare that you would do an ISO on me and then not mention all the actual important stuff I did, like how when I replaced in I was at lynch -2, and I defended the other main suspect (Ethos, town), the #3 suspect (Hiraki, town), and instead went after Quilford (scum) who only had one vote on him at a time. You know, the stuff that townies actually look at when they're trying to figure out someone's alignment, like how did they intearact with known scum, how did they react under pressure, did their actions seem to be pro-town or anti-town, ect.

How is your slot being at L-2 supposed to matter to me when I think you're scum? As far as I'm concerned you should have been lynched already.
Defending Ethos could have just as easily been scum defending town to look more town when the person they're defending flips town.
Though I suppose it would look worse had you started defending AFTER Ethos claimed mason. Noted.

Yosarian2 wrote:
It wouldn't be so bad if you looked at all that and then created a case that I was distancing or something, but it seems like you just skimmed through my posts, ignored everything that actually mattered, picked out a few things you could attack me on, and then called me scum.

Finding scum does matter. As far as I'm concerned I have a good chance at having found scum.

Yosarian2 wrote:
The rest of your post is pretty terrible, too. The day 1 scum wagon on Empking that forced him into a bad claim was pushed by Îdher, me, Saporovirus, and kunkstar7, and you just called ALL of us scum, which is just beyond absurd. You didn't even mention the day 1 quilford/ empking wagon in ANY of your ISO analysis. What kind of townie tries to read and analyze the whole game but ignores the sucessfull wagon-to-a-claim made against a scum?

Yeah.... that's a fail on my part. Sorry.

On further analysis:
Kunk- voted Empking only; from what I see he didn't actually push anything. He didn't even post a reason for voting Empking.
Sapo- tried to start a wagon on Empking but didn't even vote until after he claimed. Didn't even originally post a reason with suspecting Empking from what I see.
Idher- Came in asking why Empking wasn't dead yet; didn't say anything until after Emp claimed, and chose to agree with it.
Yos- You only voted Empking as filler until you could attack Ythan's slot again. You originally stated some decent reasoning for your vote on Quilford, then didn't pursue it afterwards.

I see no obvious town tells in this.

Yosarian2 · Post Post #991 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:55 am

MrZepher wrote:

Yosarian2 wrote:
Anyway, it's bizzare that you would do an ISO on me and then not mention all the actual important stuff I did, like how when I replaced in I was at lynch -2, and I defended the other main suspect (Ethos, town), the #3 suspect (Hiraki, town), and instead went after Quilford (scum) who only had one vote on him at a time. You know, the stuff that townies actually look at when they're trying to figure out someone's alignment, like how did they intearact with known scum, how did they react under pressure, did their actions seem to be pro-town or anti-town, ect.

How is your slot being at L-2 supposed to matter to me when I think you're scum? As far as I'm concerned you should have been lynched already.
Defending Ethos could have just as easily been scum defending town to look more town when the person they're defending flips town.
Though I suppose it would look worse had you started defending AFTER Ethos claimed mason. Noted.

Are you really not getting what I'm saying here?

If a scum replaced into a slot and was already at lynch -2, his only real goal would be to survive and get someone who isn't him lynched, so he would probably push a big, competing wagon on a townie to try to stay alive.

There were two big wagons, Ethos and Hiraki, but I thought they were both town, so I defended BOTH of them, and then tried to start a new wagon on Quilford, who I thought was scum even though he only had one vote on him. If I was scum trying to stay alive, that would be an incredibly stupid way to go about doing it. It should be fairly obvious from the way all that turned out that I was town trying to lynch scum, and that I cared more about lynching scum that then about my own survival.

Yosarian2 wrote:
It wouldn't be so bad if you looked at all that and then created a case that I was distancing or something, but it seems like you just skimmed through my posts, ignored everything that actually mattered, picked out a few things you could attack me on, and then called me scum.

Finding scum does matter. As far as I'm concerned I have a good chance at having found scum.

...what?

You don't think that it matters who supported and who opposed a wagon on scum?

Yosarian2 wrote:
The rest of your post is pretty terrible, too. The day 1 scum wagon on Empking that forced him into a bad claim was pushed by Îdher, me, Saporovirus, and kunkstar7, and you just called ALL of us scum, which is just beyond absurd. You didn't even mention the day 1 quilford/ empking wagon in ANY of your ISO analysis. What kind of townie tries to read and analyze the whole game but ignores the sucessfull wagon-to-a-claim made against a scum?

Yeah.... that's a fail on my part. Sorry.

On further analysis:
Kunk- voted Empking only; from what I see he didn't actually push anything. He didn't even post a reason for voting Empking.
Sapo- tried to start a wagon on Empking but didn't even vote until after he claimed. Didn't even originally post a reason with suspecting Empking from what I see.
Idher- Came in asking why Empking wasn't dead yet; didn't say anything until after Emp claimed, and chose to agree with it.
Yos- You only voted Empking as filler until you could attack Ythan's slot again. You originally stated some decent reasoning for your vote on Quilford, then didn't pursue it afterwards.

I see no obvious town tells in this.

Voting for scum IS a town tell, pretty much by definition.

In fact, I'll go farther then that. If there were 2 or 3 distancing scum out of the 5 people voting for empking, he wouldn't have felt the kind of pressure to make him make such a risky claim to try and stay alive. He knew he was in really serious danger of being lynched in order to make a desperate claim like that, which probably means that the day 1 empking wagon was either mostly town or all town. There might have been 1 scum on the wagon, or there might have been none; there certainly were not more then 1 scum on the wagon, I'd be willing to bet on that.

Also, what do you mean I "didn't persue it afterwards", or that my "empking vote was a placeholder vote"? If I think someone's scum, then I think their replacement is scum too, which is why I voted for him. Yes, at one point Ythan was really pissing me off with his stubborn refusal to explain his bad Ethos vote and I voted him, but I went back to my original suspicion on quilford/empking once he replaced out.

I'm really having trouble believing any of this as plausible thought patterns coming from a town. If you're a town, and are scumhunting, the FIRST thing you do is take a close look at any scum wagons in the past, because you get more information from that then from anything else. It seems to me like you're just trying to create BS ways to justify fake suspicions, probably so you can OMGUS and attack people who aren't your scumbuddies.

kunkstar7 · Post Post #992 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:59 am

Wait, sapo pushing Empking's lynch after he claimed vig Day 1? Obvious bus there, there was no way that lynch was going to go through after that confirmable claim.

Vote: saporovirus

.

kanyeknowsbest · Post Post #993 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:37 am

Just a heads up, this weekend is killin me and I won't have time to post until tomorrow night.

├Ädher · Post Post #994 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:11 am

Post 981, Chair wrote:2) if the wagon had failed that day and we had gone with a different lynch and lynched empking later,
scum would have lost that bookie shot
. scum HAD to push the wagon THAT DAY. This isn't a normal lynch wagon - it's a wagon that the scum needed to go through THAT DAY to get the bookie. Even if they had a second/third/whatever shot, they would have wanted to save those extra shots.

Chair's error on the nature of the bookie role puts him on the town list. Hooray!

├Ädher · Post Post #995 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:11 am

(-Ether)

SpyreX · Post Post #996 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:23 am

....

Except that's exactly what the PM says?

Woooo

├Ädher · Post Post #997 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:26 am

Pretty sure the bookie only loses a shot when it's successful, and the scum know this. If you believed otherwise, then why the fuck were you voting Empking? Reckoner's idle, but I'll ask him to clarify when he's on.

-Ether

SpyreX · Post Post #998 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:29 am

Your teammates are (PLAYERNAMES). Each night, you may select a player. If that player is lynched the next day, you may perform an extra kill in addition to your factional the following night. During the day, you have your voice and your vote only. You win when mafia is equal in number to town, or nothing can prevent the same.

I'm not sure how you can read anything but "use a shot, select a player, if they're lynched two kills."

Not "Maaaaybe use a shot if you're right otherwise dance party."

And I was absolutely clear that REGARDLESS of the bookie or not you lynch scum. Period.

xRECKONERx · Post Post #999 (ISO) » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:41 am

No, Bookie shots are used up regardless of whether or not the bookie succeeds.