Mini 280 - Game Over

[Aelyn]

Here's the thing, though: the only reason to claim from my perspective is that it may get me not lynched today. But I'm probably going to get lynched soon anyway, so I'm not convinced a Fiasco lynch today is that much worse than an Aelyn lynch. So why should I claim? What would you do if you were me, and you knew you were pro-town?

You should claim. Firstly, why are you so confident that you'll get lynched? There's every possibility that I will get lynched today and that there'll be better leads on future days.

Putting it simply - where is the

dis

advantage of claiming before being lynched? On the plus side, it could save you. What's the negative?

Townies should never feel, barring some really insane role-based thing, that they are the correct lynch for the day. They might feel they are better lynches than some other people, for tactical reasons, but they should never feel they are the best lynch. Ergo they should claim if it could save them - there's no reason not to.

Until you claim,

Vote: Fiasco

.

[Fiasco]

You do not necessarily need to be 'partnered' with anyone to be scum. You could easily be the SK. This wouldn't require you to have a partner.

Do you think I've sounded like a serial killer recently? (And don't say "you're only choosing to sound like that because then people will think you're not the serial killer"; that

doesn't work

, because people could still think I'm mafia.)

The thing that gets me is, "Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch...." Are you kidding me?

You left out the "

if

" part of that sentence. I think it's very possible LML and Aelyn are both scum, and given that I know I'm innocent, I prefer lynching them to lynching me,

unless

we're going to lynch me anyway, in which case it's better to do so now.

Let me get this straight, you will vote for Aelyn to save your life, even though you are so sure of his innocence?

I'm not at all sure of Aelyn's innocence, as I've always made clear.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are you talking about something other than what LML addressed in post 241?

No, that is what I meant:

I voted Aelyn because even though I don't AGREE with the lynch, I though it was the RIGHT lynch.

That's not an argument, it's just a contradiction.

They might feel they are better lynches than some other people, for tactical reasons, but they should never feel they are the best lynch. Ergo they should claim if it could save them - there's no reason not to.

I don't think I'm the best lynch, but given how unpopular I've made myself, I'm not sure I'm a worse lynch today than you, and you're the only other player who might get lynched.

I'll think some more about whether it makes sense for me to claim. It is possible that a cop will be able to clear me.

[vikingfan]

You sound more and more like a trapped scum looking for a way out and trying to stall until you can think of a good claim.

More to the point, it sounds like you're asking for someone to clear you through an investigation. Why should we do that if we can just lynch you? And as Aelyn said, why not claim now? What's the negative?

My vote stays.

[Fiasco]

If I'm not cop-cleared, I'm probably going to get lynched tomorrow anyway. LML said he was going to investigate me; don't know about Don Gaetano. If you're sure enough of my guilt that you think it's a waste of an investigation, then I can't blame you for wanting to lynch me -- again, better today than tomorrow, because then we can make a more informed lynch tomorrow.

I'd like to hear from more people whether they think me claiming is a good idea; I don't think Norinel does, for example. Once enough people do, I'll claim.

[Passdog]

I always feel that the people who advocate, or are even accepting of, their own lynch are doing so to 'seem' more town. Although it generally feels so contrived that it feels scummy, I do understand the sentiment. Most players get so frustrated at some point or another at their hopeless situation that they feel like giving up.

Despite my understanding, Fiasco's version of this irks me. On top of his already scummy actions Fiasco seems to give up lasting the day, saying that his death will enlighten us in some fashion - without saying what we will learn from his lynch. Claiming at least would provide us with a little extra info with which to garner information and make the correct decision - yet he advocates not revealling.

@Fiasco: What are you trying to hide that we won't lose anyway if you are lynched?

The point to that question is obvious: if he is town what is the benefit of hiding information that could prevent us from lynching a townie? Anyone else feel like these are just stalling tactics?

[Fiasco]

Most players get so frustrated at some point or another at their hopeless situation that they feel like giving up.

I honestly don't feel like giving up -- I intend to keep playing this for the win, as is my duty as a player. I can't deny feeling a bit frustrated, though.

saying that his death will enlighten us in some fashion - without saying what we will learn from his lynch.

Not so much from my lynch as from the ensuing nightkills and cop investigations. Lynching me today and X tomorrow is a better plan than lynching Aelyn today and me tomorrow, because the X lynch will be based on more knowledge than the Aelyn lynch.

What are you trying to hide that we won't lose anyway if you are lynched?

If I told you whether I had anything to hide, and what it was, then that would be tantamount to claiming.

if he is town what is the benefit of hiding information that could prevent us from lynching a townie?

Withholding information from the scum.

[Jaguar]

Well, it looks like Norinel and I are the lonely Aelyn lynch supporters at this time. I will

unvote, vote: Fiasco

to put some additional pressure on him. Convince me that you aren't scum in some way. Your actions so far leave a lot to be desired.

Yes, LML could be lying, but with an Aelyn lynch, we could be finding that out. LML could also be telling the truth, and lynching a claimed cop on day one is always a bad idea, especially in this case. If there were two claimed cops with investigation results on two different individuals, the situation would be much different, but again, I hate to lynch a claimed cop on day 1.

As for possible scum partners to Fiasco, the possibilities are plenty. Someone already mentioned that you don't need to have partners to be scum, but even if you had partners, there are ten of us left alive, so do the math on possible matches. Just because you show no affiliation or because a fellow scum votes for you means nothing.

Not so much from my lynch as from the ensuing nightkills and cop investigations. Lynching me today and X tomorrow is a better plan than lynching Aelyn today and me tomorrow, because the X lynch will be based on more knowledge than the Aelyn lynch.

I don't get the logic here. Any lynch tomorrow will be based on more information than any lynch today, be it yours, Aelyn's or some person X's lynch.

[Fiasco]

I will

unvote, vote: Fiasco

to put some additional pressure on him. Convince me that you aren't scum in some way.

This is not helpful. If you want me to claim, then say so, but I'm kind of already defending myself against everyone, and I don't see how the vote will help me think of a way to convince you.

I don't get the logic here. Any lynch tomorrow will be based on more information than any lynch today, be it yours, Aelyn's or some person X's lynch.

A Fiasco lynch based on no information is as good as a Fiasco lynch based on a lot of information, because I'm either scum or not. An Aelyn lynch based on no information is probably worse than an X lynch based on a lot of information.

[Fiasco]

That was five, by the way. Next vote = hammer.

Might not have another chance to claim, so:

I'm a vanilla townie, as per #2.

[Fiasco]

FoS: Jaguar

for putting the penultimate vote on without warning.

Aelyn, if you're honest, this is your cue to unvote.

[Jaguar]

Stop the triple posting! Don't tell me you couldn't have posted the last three posts in one! The preview button is your friend.

And I didn't realize we were at 4 and my vote would make 5. I looked at the top post count and it indicated three votes and I completely missed Aelyn's. I'll

unvote

at this time.

So tell me why lynching a vanilla townie is better or worse than lynching a claimed unnightkillable townie. Your arguments were that we wouldn't want to lynch you if you claimed, I believe, yet the townie claim is the easiest one to put forward as scum.

Besides, we weren't lynching Aelyn on no information. We have two cop investigations on Aelyn. If that doesn't make it a lynch based on information, what is? How can we ensure that for an X lynch tomorrow we will have that kind of information?

[vikingfan]

Why should Aelyn unvote? It's either him or you today...

And I'm fine with the vote- at least we don't risk hitting an important role, which we would have if we'd followed your advice and lynched a claimed cop. This is still the main reason I'm voting for you...

[KingPin]

Why would a townie want to lynch a cliamed cop? Why would a townie not want the most information we can gather? Even if true, your actions have lead the town away from information that would have been helpful. If it was a sacrifice, I think it worked.

The idea that it was all based on LML's claim and actions, seems to be anti-town. I cannot reconcile your actions throughout the day. Yes, I may be wrong. You may be town, but your actions scream scum. I cannot ignore that. I did not think at the start that you were being ultra defensive, but looking at the day as a whole, it was. I contributed that to being a newb, I believe that was wrong.

Please discuss further.

[Fiasco]

Stop the triple posting! Don't tell me you couldn't have posted the last three posts in one! The preview button is your friend.

I use the preview button. It doesn't help me see into the future. When I submitted the first post, I didn't know there were five votes on me. When I submitted the second post, I didn't know I was going to remember to say the things in the third post. These things can't wait until after my death.

So tell me why lynching a vanilla townie is better or worse than lynching a claimed unnightkillable townie.

No idea whether it is -- again, it depends on what we're going to do tomorrow.

Why should Aelyn unvote?

The only rationale given behind his vote was to get me to claim, and I did.

Something I may not have mentioned: I've seen Aelyn post a long game summary before. He was scum then. Maybe he does it as town too, I don't know.

KingPin, you're asking me questions I feel I've answered several times already, and I'm going to request a re-read on your part before we discuss this any further.

[LoudmouthLee]

Fiasco claimed Vanilla?



I think it's best for us to lynch Fiasco, not kill a power role, and I'll investigate Don Gaetano.

[Fiasco]

I'm curious what the reasoning behind that is. If you die tonight, no investigation of yours will be useful. If DG dies tonight, the DG investigation will not be useful (because we no longer need to know DG's alignment, and because any light it casts on your sanity could be faked). Therefore investigating DG is only going to be of any use if neither of you dies tonight. That seems unlikely to me. Better investigate someone like draygn_mage, so that if one cop dies we still have some extra information to go on.

Now that at least some of the scum seem to think I'm in the other scum group, is there any chance we could no-lynch and make the scum waste one or both nightkills on me? Probably not

[draygn_mage]

Wow, from lynch the claimed cop to no lynch. Want to bring up mass claims and go for the trifecta?

[vikingfan]

Yeah, I agree- fiasco, you're just digging yourself a hole deeper and deeper.

[Fiasco]

That was mostly a joke. My (perceived) credibility may never be this low again; might as well enjoy it. The idea makes some sense given my knowledge, but not really given yours; it's not as if I have any hope of persuading you on this point.

Why did neither of you comment on the more interesting issue, which is who the cop targets should be if I'm lynched?

[vikingfan]

At this point, I'm thinking it's better if the cops keep their investigations to themselves- if they put it up for influence by the people, two things can happen, A) there's a risk that scum can influence the investigation and put it toward someone not on them, and B) scum can kill the investigation and make it tougher for the town. Sure, it might help us know if the cop is sane, but it also cuts down on the amount of knowledge the town has. if the cop can make an independent investigation, I think it helps the town more...

If we wanna test the cops, the easiest way is still to lynch aelyn, but that's a route we can leave for tomorrow, assuming he isn't dead tonight...

[Passdog]

Now that at least some of the scum seem to think

I'm in the other scum group

, is there any chance we could no-lynch and make the scum waste one or both nightkills on me?

I think Fiasco has given his final tell here. As far as I can see there has been no indication that there could be two scum groups. In fact this quote is tantamount to admitting to being scum! How on Earth could someone make that assumption without being scum.

With regard to Fiasco's claim I kind of expected him to claim vanilla. I find that people always have the most difficulty believing vanilla claims, but that is because they are the easiest claim to make. I don't think it really reveals much.

[vikingfan]

Dang, this Day 1 has lasted longer than some

mini

games...

[Fiasco]

I think Fiasco has given his final tell here. As far as I can see there has been no indication that there could be two scum groups.

I try to use the word "scum" to mean any anti-town minority, whether that's the mafia or the SK. Many people use it as another word for "mafia", and at rare times so do I, by accident.

This is obviously not one of those times. First, there almost certainly are not two mafia groups. The death scene strongly suggests one of the kills is a serial killer, and setups with two mafia groups aren't as common as setups with a mafia and SK. Second, if there are two mafia groups and if I'm in one of them, then I don't

know

there are two mafia groups. Third, even if I

knew

there were two mafia groups, I resent the implication that I'm stupid enough to just blurt out this information in the game thread.

You've just made the same mistake as LML: you accused me of having inside information that, from the death scene,

clearly isn't true

. Are you trying to confuse the town as to the setup?

[vikingfan]

I'd agree with you, fiasco, except that I once made the same mistake as scum. Vote stands.

[Fiasco]

So you seriously think:

* we have two mafia groups
* I'm in one of those groups, and I know the other group exists
* I used the word "scum" to mean mafia only, even though I

almost always

use it to mean "mafia or SK" (check the game history for proof)
* I didn't realize that when I said that, it would give me away

?

vote vikingfan

, because at least Passdog can say it was semantics confusion