Mini 280 - Game Over

[KingPin]

The way I've understood the Night activities happening are like this:

All activities happen at the same exact instant. If more than 1 scum group targets the exact same person, and there is a doc to protect, then that person gets protected from all attacks (or healed as may be the case with Docs).

I've seen nights that this has actually happened. In my experience a Doc protects from all kills on a person at night, unless they are told specifically that they can only protect against one attempt per night. Again, in order for the game to make sense everything has to happen in the same instant.

Again, in this game, I don't know. But from my experience, this is how I look at it.

[vikingfan]

That's not my experience. Typically in my experience, a single doc protect will protect against one kill attempt- but if two are made, then the person dies anyway. However, if a kill attempt is made both on the doc and his protectee (separately), the doc dies but his protectee survives (all other things being equal).

[KingPin]

Fiasco,

Congratulations you managed to go a whole R-day without asking us to lynch a claimed cop! However, I am still wondering how you are helping the town? Seriously, how has your play helped the town? I really don't like your assumptions as to how mafia or the sk will play tonight. It sounds to me like you are trying to coordinate the night activities before the day is over.

You said a few (read many) posts back that you don't think Aelyn is the best lynch today. I've stated my reasons why it would be beneficial for the town. Can you tell me why, without double/triple posting why draygn_mage is? I would like a solid post in support.

[Fiasco]

My current thinking is, maybe it's better if you lynch me today, since it's going to happen anyway, and you'll have more information for the next lynch. (Again, I don't think there will be a sane cop alive to clear me; if there is, he'll at least get to investigate someone else and maybe find a scum.) I mean this in a strategic rather than bitter sort of way.

OTOH, there's the possibility of the scum nightkilling me because they think I'm in the other scum group.

It's worth sorting out which of you is right about the doc protects (though the scum will also want to know).

Congratulations you managed to go a whole R-day without asking us to lynch a claimed cop!

And you didn't advocate lynching a claimed coward. Well done!

However, I am still wondering how you are helping the town? Seriously, how has your play helped the town?

It's too early to say how it's

actually

helped, but I think my play was mostly correct. I may have talked people out of an irrational Aelyn lynch; I may have caught LML as a scum; I've definitely put out a lot of logical points that help in making the correct decision.

I really don't like your assumptions as to how mafia or the sk will play tonight.

Yes, it does bother me the scum may have gotten information from that; maybe it was unwise. On the other hand, the scum are not stupid, and would probably have figured it out for themselves. Note that I'm going by assumptions that were originally brought up by Norinel.

Can you tell me why, without double/triple posting why draygn_mage is? I would like a solid post in support.

I'm still thinking about the correct lynch, so let me

unvote draygn_mage

.

What made me want to vote draygn_mage is he falsely accused me of lying, he lurked, and he jumped onto my bandwagon (4th vote) with a kind of "me too". Quotes like the following don't help:

That's the great thing about this game. i can vote my gut all I want.

You know at this point I am about to get out a coin and see who I should vote for based on that.

I'm willing to let the scum sort out the cop problem for us.

Aelyn's lack of posts disturbs me.

I may think of more to say, but since I wouldn't want to subject you to the excruciating agony that is seeing two posts in a row by the same person, I'll wait until someone else has posted.

[Adele]

Aelyn (my brother) asked me to visit his games and apologize for his quietness. He says his access has been limited, but he plans to post tomorrow.

[Fiasco]

Now Aelyn's lack of posts no longer disturbs me, but everyone else's does.

[Norinel]

Because not posting one time you're on is

so

disturbing.

Norinel, I agree another claim would be bad. The alternative is to lynch a claimed power role, though.

Well, there's a very good chance that if another person is forced to a claim, they won't claim townie, in which case we get the same choice of lynching a claimed power role or another claim.

A (backup) doc that protects against at most one attack is the standard case, isn't it? (If not, do correct me!) If so, then how is our sane cop ever going to survive after an Aelyn lynch?

If any of the following happen:
-Aelyn's the SK and there's another doc
-Aelyn's the SK and the mafia attack someone else because they think there's another doc or for any of the other reasons explained below
-Either of the killing groups don't kill for whatever reason (They can't, to set up a doc claim, just to confuse things), and a doc blocks the other kill or it targets someone else for any of the reasons given below.
-The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to make everyone think the presumably sane claimed cop is evil.
-The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to confuse the town.
-The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to find the potential other doc or a more useful power role.
-The presumably sane claimed cop actually is evil, and is immune to the nightkill of the other killer, or the other killer hits someone else because they think there's a doc or to frame them, confuse the town, or hunt for the doc/a stronger role.
-The town's useful cop is actually insane, the one who claimed and got a wrong result on Aelyn, so the scum, SK, and potential doc all hit the naive/paranoid other one.
-The town's useful cop is neither LML nor DG, and just hasn't claimed yet. LML and DG are some combination of lying or naive/paranoid.

(I'd say answering my question wouldn't confirm or deny anything regarding what's actually in this game, it's just about how LB would rule in a specific hypothetical situation that may or may not ever actually occur. But the mod has spoken.)

[Fiasco]

Because not posting one time you're on is

so

disturbing.

When one person does it? No. When everyone does it? Yes.

If any of the following happen:
1) Aelyn's the SK and there's another doc
2) Aelyn's the SK and the mafia attack someone else because they think there's another doc or for any of the other reasons explained below
3) Either of the killing groups don't kill for whatever reason (They can't, to set up a doc claim, just to confuse things), and a doc blocks the other kill or it targets someone else for any of the reasons given below.
4) The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to make everyone think the presumably sane claimed cop is evil.
5) The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to confuse the town.
6) The killing role(s) hit someone other than the now presumably sane claimed cop to find the potential other doc or a more useful power role.
7) The presumably sane claimed cop actually is evil, and is immune to the nightkill of the other killer, or the other killer hits someone else because they think there's a doc or to frame them, confuse the town, or hunt for the doc/a stronger role.
8) The town's useful cop is actually insane, the one who claimed and got a wrong result on Aelyn, so the scum, SK, and potential doc all hit the naive/paranoid other one.
9) The town's useful cop is neither LML nor DG, and just hasn't claimed yet. LML and DG are some combination of lying or naive/paranoid.

(I've taken the liberty of numbering these)

1) and 2) (Aelyn is SK) seem very unlikely. 7) and 8) don't actually leave a sane cop alive. 8) leaves an insane cop alive temporarily, but he may not be very useful due to the confusion. I was taking it for granted that 9) isn't true, i.e. that everyone else had claimed not-cop by now. 3-6) sound possible but unlikely.

It remains true that lynching Aelyn will inform the scum (esp. the SK) which cop is sane (or rather: got the correct result), so I'm not quite convinced.

[Aelyn]

I apologise for my quietness - as my sister mentioned, I've had all but no access over the last few days, since the play I was in took up all my spare time.

I'll re-read asap and get a decent post in soon, hopefully.

Sorry again for my lack of posts.

[vikingfan]

At this point, I think we need A) a deadline to get things moving, and B) I'd like a claim out of fiasco. I was wanting a lynch of aelyn due to game-related reasons but since that's stalled, my #1 target is and has been fiasco due to the recommendations of lynching a claimed cop day 1.

[Passdog]

The reason I'm not posting much is because there isn't much more for me to say. I think Fiasco is scummiest, I've said why, and now I am waiting for further discussion or a decent refutation of my (and the other) arguments for his lynch.

So guys - if you post either vote or argue new points, or against old points. I am quite happy that if you've nothing to add you don't post. I much prefer that happens so I don't have to filter through all the crap.

I'd be interested in finding out who everyone finds most scummy. For me it is obviously Fiasco No.1. Then I am kinda suspicious of the cops (together - one is almost certainly town but I am concerned about the lying possibility - I'm just not sure which it might be). After that... dunno I'll get back to you.

[Fiasco]

Here's the thing, though: the only reason to claim from my perspective is that it may get me not lynched today. But I'm probably going to get lynched soon anyway, so I'm not convinced a Fiasco lynch today is that much worse than an Aelyn lynch. So why should I claim? What would you do if you were me, and you knew you were pro-town?

[Fiasco]

Passdog: I'm in the same situation, in that I think I already refuted the anti-Fiasco arguments in past posts. Specifically, I think I've shown why lynching LML isn't so unreasonable. (No one else has addressed the LML lying thing, for example.) I promised once to reply to some things in Aelyn's summary, but, bleh, that's so old now.

Unlike a few days ago, I no longer think we're having much useful discussion, so I guess it's up to all of you to decide whether to lynch me, or Aelyn, or come up with something new.

[vikingfan]

I agree- and I think the only piece of new info we're likely to get is fiasco's claim. Maybe that'll get people going because I think it's pretty clear we're going to lynch one of the two of you today.

Specifically, we need the people not voting to pick a side- it's not like we're going to get much new info. I think that's what we're really waiting on right now.

[Fiasco]

That's not including me, is it? I think I'm going to preserve my dignity and not participate in either lynch.

(PS I apologize for misquoting Darth Vader earlier )

[vikingfan]

No, not really- but we do have 3 people according to the last vote count who aren't voting who we need to make a decision.

[Fiasco]

Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch if, in case he turns up guilty, we're lynching LML the next day. But if we're going to lynch me in any case, there's no harm in doing it now so we'll have more info for the next lynch.

[LoudmouthLee]

Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch if, in case he turns up guilty, we're lynching LML the next day. But if we're going to lynch me in any case, there's no harm in doing it now so we'll have more info for the next lynch.

You are the scummiest person I've ever seen.

I gave you my result. It makes NO sense for me to "allow the town" to get two scum.

I, sincerely, think you're really either cornered scum or the most misguided townie ever.

I would be VERY happy lynching Fiasco.

[vikingfan]

Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch if, in case he turns up guilty, we're lynching LML the next day. But if we're going to lynch me in any case, there's no harm in doing it now so we'll have more info for the next lynch.

You are the scummiest person I've ever seen.

I gave you my result. It makes NO sense for me to "allow the town" to get two scum.

I, sincerely, think you're really either cornered scum or the most misguided townie ever.

I would be VERY happy lynching Fiasco.

So why aren't you voting him? Or is there something I'm missing?

[LoudmouthLee]

I was voting him (Fiasco) the entire day..

I thought (and maybe I'm wrong) the town concensus was to lynch Aelyn to gain info.

I'd be happy to return my Fiasco vote... I think the day, though, does need to end. I don't feel like forcing any more claims.

[Fiasco]

If I'm so scummy, I'd be interested in hearing theories of who my scum partners are. Why has no one brought up a plausible theory?

[LyingBrian]

• Vote Count:
  • 3) Fiasco
    • draygn_mage
    • Passdog
    • vikingfan
  • 2) Aelyn
    • Jaguar
    • Norinel
  • 1) KingPin
    • Don Gaetano
  • 4)
    not voting
    • Aelyn
    • Fiasco
    • KingPin
    • LoudmouthLee
• Lynch:
  6 votes
  
• Deadline:
  FRI 03/06/06 13:00 EST

[KingPin]

Fiasco,

You do not necessarily need to be 'partnered' with anyone to be scum. You could easily be the SK. This wouldn't require you to have a partner.

The thing that gets me is, "Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch...." Are you kidding me? For the last few days you've tried so hard not to get him lynched and now, you are for his lynch? Let me get this straight, you will vote for Aelyn to save your life, even though you are so sure of his innocence?

You know what they say, Scum-play = Scum-play. I think that Aelyn may be innocent. I think that you have tried hard to save him, but not for the 'good' of the town. I think you did it so that you could gain a little more credibility. Not that I would have found you more credible. That is based on your play. Don't forget your obvious attempt to lynch a claimed cop on D1. If you take your play as a whole (defensiveness from the start, belief in a cliam from someone investigated with conflicting results, the attempted lynch of a claimed cop, and the okay I'll agree to lynch Aelyn.)

Am I missing anything?

[Norinel]

Here's the thing, though: the only reason to claim from my perspective is that it may get me not lynched today.

Or that you have information that won't be revealed if we lynch you anyway.

(No one else has addressed the LML lying thing, for example.)

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are you talking about something other than what LML addressed in post 241?

Specifically, we need the people not voting to pick a side- it's not like we're going to get much new info. I think that's what we're really waiting on right now.

It's interesting that, if by "pick a side" you mean vote for either Aelyn or Fiasco, everyone picking a side will almost certainly be the lynch of one or the other.

I'd be happy to return my Fiasco vote... I think the day, though, does need to end. I don't feel like forcing any more claims.

It's also interesting that you don't directly acknowledge the obvious contradiction here.

[vikingfan]

At the time I made that statement, Norinel, Fiasco had 3 votes and Aelyn had 2 with 3 nonvoters. It wouldn't necessarily lead to a lynch, but it would get us there. Only if we're split would it not lead IMMEDIATELY to a lynch. If they all voted for one person, it could be a lynch but not necessarily (nor would it necessarily happen right away).

And in any case, we wouldn't necessarily NEED a lynch, but I do want to see more progress since I agree with passdog, fiasco, and lml: i really don't feel like there's much more info to be gained from today.