Double-Dip Mafia, Game Over

[smallpeoples343]

I hope your father recovers!

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #14

6 Hiraki (Pomegranate, iamausername, smallpeoples343, [Low Key], Amrun, Ameliaslay)
3 kunkstar7 (WeyounsLastClone, Ranmaru, RedCoyote)
3 Ranmaru ([Low Key], Ameliaslay, Empking)
3 WeyounsLastClone (Amrun, Empking, Pomegranate)
2 Ameliaslay (Ranmaru, imaginality)
2 iamausername (Hiraki, Ellibereth)
2 imaginality (Hiraki, Crazy)
1 Amrun (WeyounsLastClone)
1 Crazy (Ellibereth)
1 Ellibereth (Crazy)
1 Empking (iamausername)
1 Pomegranate (imaginality)
1 smallpeoples343 (RedCoyote)

With

15

alive, it takes

8

to lynch. Deadline is July 15 at 4:00 PM PDT.

Not Voting – 1 – kunkstar7

Mod Note:

kunkstar7 has been prodded.

[iamausername]

UNVOTE: Empking

That was a silly reactionary vote, which I mostly made because I wanted to get off the smallwagon. There's gotta be a better place I could put that one.

@Iam: Same, I need some more stances. Thoughts on RC, Kunkstar, Empking, Elli, and WLC k thx.

You can have ALL THIS AND MORE!

RedCoyote

I have a fairly strong town read on him, for reasons that it would not be beneficial to explain right now. Do remind me to explain it later, though (not today).

I have no problem with Hiraki earning some votes.

Wouldn't you like to add one of your own?

Kunkstar

I think it's very weird that he hasn't voted at all. Not scummy-weird, just 'why would you sign up for

this

game and then not exercise your right to vote?'-weird. His activity so far is wretched, I think we're in a 'shape up or ship out' scenario here.

I also think you made a very good point about his "Whatsup with the smalls wagon? Legit or just randomwagongo?" post that he has pointedly failed to address. And I don't like the way he attacks Empking for making tons of unexplained vote changes, but says nothing about Hiraki doing the same.

This seems like a very good place for my second vote, actually.

Empking

Empking I find very very hard to read. His mind works in a way that is very alien to me; I can't tell if the scumtells he sees honestly make sense to him, I just know they don't make sense to

me

. He's one of those players that I really need to rely on interaction tells to peg one way or the other.

Ellibereth

Elli will become much much easier to read a couple of days in, when we can see if all his inscrutable nonsense actually has any kind of grand plan behind it or if he's just bullshitting. For now, I'm happy to let him keep doing as he will.

WeyounsLastClone

He's not a lot better than kunkstar, actually. Don't like his initial Amrun vote, I don't see any indication of how "p-editing her first vote was strange" equates to "p-editing her first vote was scummy". And when he's not talking about Amrun, he seems exceedingly passive.

BONUS READS:

imaginality

His Pom case looks good on an intellectual level, but I'm not feeling it in my gut. It doesn't read as contrived though; I believe that he is feeling it, even if I'm not. Generally he's looking pretty good.

Ameliaslay

Don't know why anyone is voting for her. Gut is good, gut being directed against Hiraki is great.

Hiraki

Still scum.

Due to Petry stating that he knows Slay has ton of experience, it sounds like they have offsite experience together and has seen him play quite a bit. This is only a theory though.

Ameliaslay probably is semi-newb, which is a good thing to bring up

Take a look at her join date, think again.

VOTE: kunkstar7

[iamausername]

smalls, why are you only using one of your votes?

[[Low Key]]

Low Key, you did good work in #327, but trying to explain to scum why they are scum just clogs up the thread. Leave it be.

I will be making a much more substantial post within the next few hours, just want to put an end to the raging quote war before it gets even more out of hand.

I think I did a better job here but I guess that's just my opinion.

Hope Amrun's father get's better soon.

[[Low Key]]

@Iam: What's your read on Crazy?

[kunkstar7]

I think it's very weird that he hasn't voted at all. Not scummy-weird, just 'why would you sign up for this game and then not exercise your right to vote?'-weird. His activity so far is wretched, I think we're in a 'shape up or ship out' scenario here.

I also think you made a very good point about his "Whatsup with the smalls wagon? Legit or just randomwagongo?" post that he has pointedly failed to address. And I don't like the way he attacks Empking for making tons of unexplained vote changes, but says nothing about Hiraki doing the same.

Hiraki's vote changes were nowhere near the same level as Empking. Like I said Empking managed to vote 6 separate players without any reason for vote changes. Notably though Empking has moved away from this style in recent posts.

To be honest, my smalls comment was legitimate interest in whether people were serious or not considering we were partly in RVS since people had random votes and I couldn't find anything that explained a legit version of the wagon. If anything that comment leaned more to distrust of the large wagon rather than attempting to join it.

Thoughts on Image, WLC, Elli, and Pom?

Pom: Not particularly thrilled here, the fact that she took an RVS vote and made it serious with only the word "scummmmmy." is sketch. The fact that she mentions two posts later that she has no one better to vote is sad too.

Vote: Pomegranate.

Elli's play here reminds me of his play when he seems disinterested, and likely town.

WLC: Tunnelling on Amrun ineffectively here, not much else. Most of his Amrun stuff is based on early content such as a p-edit on like page 2? Picks on her not providing reasoning when there clearly have been worse culprits of that.

I am uncertain on imaginality. Early on I had a weird gut feeling about him, but have been trying to largely ignore it due to its lack of grounding in actual content.

RedCoyote joins my list of townreads.

Vote: Crazy.

His insistence on tearing down Ellibereth based solely on the Furry question is really meh to me especially considering that I supported Elli in it and he never called me out along with Elli.

Question to Hiraki wagoners: To what extent is his early apparent mixup with scumreads a part of the reason you are voting Hiraki?

[[Low Key]]

@Kunkstar: Glad to see you are back.

On Hiraki, Iam's cog-dis case against him put necessary pressure on him and allowed me to see further cog-dis in his defense which was helpful in getting my focus on Hiraki. Scum are not genuine in their scum reads (unless they are bussing and then they are 100% accurate) and can be caught by this cog-dis tell. That being said, it was Iam's case and I wouldn't mind seeing it fleshed out maybe to see it better; Hiraki's defense was terrible on it though which goes a long way for me.

I hope you don't mind me asking but, are you planning on catching up on this game, fleshing out your reads and participating more consistently?

[kunkstar7]

Wait wait wait. All that quote striping to say that well he fucked up his counting of scumreads on smallswagon so lets call it "cog-dis" and apply that to the rest of his play and call it scum? I might (truthfully I am) be generalizing the whole thing a bit too much but it makes my point. This here is why I wanted to know the full extent of that mistake in the case on Hiraki. I actually originally glossed over the iam/Hiraki stuff because to me it was like Hiraki had made an honest mistake so it didn't need to be pushed further. If it revealed that Hiraki was scum after the fact for other reasons, then okay, but I think by ascribing the word "cog-dis" to the original reason you found then ascribing it to the case as a whole doesn't make much sense.

That being said, it was Iam's case and I wouldn't mind seeing it fleshed out maybe to see it better; Hiraki's defense was terrible on it though which goes a long way for me

So in the case that you are wrong about Hiraki, we got the person to place blame on because they made the case on Hiraki not you. That's cool.

[[Low Key]]

Pffft. Apparently you have been away awhile and are oversimplifying things.

1) Cog-dis on scum reads is a valid scum tell
2) It is a case that Iam brought
3) My case revolves partially around cog-dis in his DEFENSE of that case
3a) Iam sees this better than I do and I would like to hear more
4) My case is also about Hiraki's cog-dis concerning the NK & Eli's scum hunting question too
4a) Please read my case when you have time
5) If I was a vig I would shoot Hiraki right now so please don't try and tell me that I am being disingenuous here
6) I understand you have been away and haven't caught up yet. I recommend you please do so

I hope you don't mind me asking but, are you planning on catching up on this game, fleshing out your reads and participating more consistently?

[Amrun]

Vote: Amrun.

Mobile posting I don't really see as excuse of editing yourself in the first post. Also, slipping in as a fourth vote on Crazy.

Vote: [Low Key]

cuz I don't like bracket or what they're called

This vote on me is bad. I voted for two people for this same reason: when I explained the p-edit vote change, they paid attention to the joke (true, but joke) reason I did rather than the legitimate transparency reasons I said after that. WeyounsLastClone went one step further: calling it scummy. It read like newbie scum trying to keep an early wagon going and attempting to appear like he was scumhunting with no attempt to discern actual motivation.

Unvote: Pom, Vote:Weyouns

Is this a random vote, an OMGUS-vote, a scum-vote, or do you have an actual reason?

And then my vote for him is answered in this way.... TERRIBLE.

The rest of his posting isn't much better.

[[Low Key]]

If I could help out here I would be suggesting game reads from both of you; I do see both of you as town but it appears that Wey has not done much other than his two votes and I guess its time for me to recognize that.

@Wey: Could you please give us your top 3-4 scum suspects?

[Crazy]

@Crazy: Could you please explain how Ran demonstrated a lack of cog-dis on Eli's "NK WIFOM" because I didn't understand what brought you to conclude that?

Just meta. He's spoken strongly against me in a previous game when I used what he saw as "WIFOM." So meta discussion + Ran not freaking out = WTF. But he gave a link showing he changed his views slightly so meh.

At this point, it's hard to see Ran as scum, but then it's pretty hard to

ever

see him as scum. I dunno, but Ran's a tough one to read, but at the moment it's an obligatory town read unless I find something that's specifically scummy.

@Ellibereth - Yeah, I saw that post before. That doesn't explain why you never followed through on anything about your question, though. If one of the scum modded or played with Furry before, then what does that mean as to who's scum? When I first saw your question, I saw it going one of two ways:

a. You'd limit your lynch pool to anyone who'd played with Furry before.
b. You'd totally ignore the answers to your questions.

You ended up picking "B." Did you not? Explain. Also explain that if you cared so much about your question, why you haven't been bugging the people that didn't answer to answer.

Vote: Crazy. His insistence on tearing down Ellibereth based solely on the Furry question is really meh to me especially considering that I supported Elli in it and he never called me out along with Elli.

Lol, I never noticed that you supported Elli.

Anyway, looking back on your relevant posts, I do understand what you're saying, and I think it is somewhat reasonable to think that one of the scum probably knew Furry - providing that Ellibereth didn't manipulate this situation himself by killing Furry, which was another one of my worries with the original question.

At least you're not arguing like imaginality is, "Oh, what Crazy did was disingenuous and counter-productive." Pff.

***

On another point, I don't get the Hiraki case at the moment. IAAU's case against him seems based entirely on IAAU thinking he said "3/3" when in fact he said "2/3." LK's case brings up silly points like the "N0 or N1" thing. LK is my strongest town read, though, due to his thing with Smalls, so I'm almost positive his intentions here aren't malicious.

@IAAU - I believe your case against Hiraki was based entirely off of your mistake when you thought he said "3/3" when he really said "2/3." Did you realize this? If so, then why are you still voting him?

[Crazy]

Also, kunkstar, can you explain why me voting Imaginality but not you would be indicative of me being scum? I mean, I could understand scum might be hypocritical in regards to their own scum-partners, but how is me being hypocritical in favor of you scummy from

your own

perspective, since you should know yourself to be town.

[[Low Key]]

To clarify, the major point is how he supposedly didn't know the NK; I mean why did he feel obligated to go through all that?

His responses about the other points do seem rather odd and contrived as well.

[[Low Key]]

Also, I mean the RVS thing. Every time something comes up, he made a mistake, he tried his best but it wasn't good enough, he was too lazy; I mean everything is an excuse. With all the excuses he's piled up and done so in such a suspicious manner -- doesn't smell town to me at all.

[[Low Key]]

1) I didn't know Eli's question was a question
2) Iam's question was confusing
3) I made a counting error
4) I was too lazy to know who was NK'ed
5) I made a mistake about the RVS
6) Nobody uses N0, whoops OK I don't and it looks ugly anyway

How do I give all that a town pass? How does anybody??

[Hiraki]

Take a look at her join date, think again.

If you were able to see her join rate, then you must've seen her profile which displays her post count of only 20 posts in the new forum, with this being her first game. Wait, do I sound like someone else who said something like this?

nah.

[[Low Key]]

On another point, I don't get the Hiraki case at the moment. LK's case brings up silly points like the "N0 or N1" thing. LK is my strongest town read, though, due to his thing with Smalls, so I'm almost positive his intentions here aren't malicious.

Sorry, I don't mean to be crewl but I consider this blatant strawmanning and buddying.

@IAAU - I believe your case against Hiraki was based entirely off of your mistake when you thought he said "3/3" when he really said "2/3." Did you realize this? If so, then why are you still voting him?

This is an excellent question.

[Hiraki]

@IAAU - I believe your case against Hiraki was based entirely off of your mistake when you thought he said "3/3" when he really said "2/3." Did you realize this? If so, then why are you still voting him?

Because IAAU is acting like shit.

No seriously, this is mainly why I've been pissed off, if you've been reading or are in my other ongoing games, in my other ongoing games lately.

[iamausername]

He originally said 2/3. Then he changed his mind and said 3/3. I made no mistake.

[Ranmaru]

Please elaborate on how your suggestion that 3 out of 3 of your scumreads are on the smallwagon could possibly arise from a counting error and not you forgetting which of Empking and imaginality was supposed to be a serious vote.

Time to settle all this.

Alright. Iam, did you believe that he was faking suspicion on Imag? Is this the premise of your suspicion?

Ok, Hiraki. What made you go 3/3 instead of 2/3 like you originally counted? Did you really mean 2/3?

[Ranmaru]

@Wey: Could you please clarify your case on Amrun because I'm not seeing it?

My first votes were based on only few pages of evidence, but I found someone p-editing their first vote quite strange, even with the 'mobile posting' explanation. Then she votes Crazy and Pomegranate without reasons. Presumably to create wagons, which I find dangerous when it's only 8 to lynch and everyone has two votes. Sure they were only at L-4 at that point, but we were only on second page.
Then, when I voted her based on above reasons (at least the editing post and joining Crazy's wagon), she directly responded with what I consider an OMGUS-vote. When I ask what kind of vote it was, she responded saying I was scum. Period. No reason. Just like all of her votes, except maybe her Hiraki-vote. The real fun part comes where she asks Pom for the reason voting me, while Amrun hasn't given any yet. Except for that I'm scum because I'm scum.

Weyoun, can you try posting a little bit more then just responding to people? Also it would be nice if you answered this question (meaning ANSWER IT NOW )

@

Weyoun

: Ok. Why is Amrun scum? Why is Kunkstar scum? Give me thoughts on all the rest of the players plz. Ty.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote Small, vote iam

y u vote iam

No real reason yet.
I'll figure it out when I get home. Or just say intuition. We'll see.

Hrrm I'd like to wait to see what you figure out from home. Intuition doesn't cut it here.

[iamausername]

Alright. Iam, did you believe that he was faking suspicion on Imag? Is this the premise of your suspicion?

Somewhat. I think he's faking all of his suspicions, and imaginality is one of those, so yeah.

He claims to have looked at the smallwagon, seen 2 out of 3 of his early scumreads on it, then 'doubted himself', checked the wagon again and counted 3 out of 3 of his early scumreads on it, even though we was actually right the first time.

I do not believe it is plausible that he would make this mistake. I don't see how, if he was genuinely suspicious of imaginality, he could completely imagine his presence on that wagon

when he was specifically looking to see if he'd made a mistake in his count

. I think it is much more likely that the mistake he made was forgetting who his three early scumreads were. Specifically, one of the people he voted for at the start of the game was Empking, who was on the smallwagon. Add me and Ellibereth, and that gives you the three he counted.

And, obviously, forgetting who his early scum reads were is a lot more likely to happen if he is faking those reads, which would make him scum.