The Brave and the Beautiful 2: Fairy Tales ÔÇô Game Over

[ooba]

@Kunk: Those are the reasons.

BS, you were calling me scum before I made that mistake.

The "Well, well, well" part looked weird and I thought a wagon on you would be informative. Thought I spotted a mild Iece-LL-you connection - called that out to gauge reactions .. Scum read per se only after 83/92 ..

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The reason I was twitching at Iece's "Town vs. Town" comment on his own fight with Fitz was that it didn't feel to me like Iece was treating Fitz like a townie. It just felt weird having Iece say that, especially after Amrun had come out and said it.

[Iecerint]

Was not my intent. I did have a kind of annoyed taste in my mouth when I saw that he could have answered his first question just by reading the rest of the thread. Town reads doing that kind of thing annoys me, especially because I caught scum in [REDACTED] via a riff off of that (but the context, etc. were a little different than here). So that's probably what you're picking up on.

[ReaperCharlie]

The Brave and Beautiful Vote Count

1.9

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Iecerint [3] – Kdub, Lady Lambdadelta, havingfitz
Kdub [3] – kunkstar7, Amrun, ooba

kunkstar7 [2]

– bv310, Kast

Lady Lambdadelta [2]

– Robocopter87, Fate

Not Voting

– Albert B. Rampage, Iecerint

---

With 12 players alive, it is 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is July 1 at 12pm PST (3pm EST).

[Kdub]

I decided lay low for a bit after SpyreX's death and see how players would react. If Iec was scum, as I had been suspecting, I would have expected him to either continue his push against me/LL while citing WIFOM ("scum killed SpyreX to make me look bad/make them look good"), OR to justify him moving off LL and moving in another direction. It seemed like the LL wagon stalled in light of her claim, and Iec was probably the next most-suspected player, so there would be clear motivation for him to pursue either of these routes if he were scum and thought he couldn't get LL lynched. Instead...well he didn't really do a whole lot of anything. He claims to still suspect me/LL, but his level of aggression doesn't strike me as the way opportunistic scum would react to a day kill that he was a part of. I think My earlier reasoning for suspecting Iec still is valid, but I admit that the last couple pages have made me feel better about him.

UNVOTE:

Now on to fitz. Post 210, on the other hand, is very much like what I would have expected scum who killed SpyreX to do. He uses SpyreX's flip to justify a town read on LL, and he makes a comment about looking into SpyreX's opinions...oh guess what, he suspected Iecerint! Up to this point, fitz has said very little about Iec aside from a disagreement about him finding me/SpyreX scummy, but even this post had very little indication that he thought Iec was suspicious because of that. I'd rather not join the wall-of-quotes war that the two of them are getting into, but suffice to say, fitz's reason for voting Iec after the fact boils down to "SpyreX suspected him" and not much else. The rest of his case is either rehashing Iec's me/SpyreX suspicion or trying to push an argument about him buddying with Fate (in which he uses LOLmath to suggest that there is a 2/3 chance that Iec is scum).

VOTE: havingfitz

[Kast]

Posting on limited time today.

Kunk's defense post is fairly solid; it's reasonable explanation/excuses. They don't make him more scummy, but also don't really make him less. I'd like more content to better evaluate and form a better determination. For now, vote stays. I may move it since it looks like everyone else is content to let kunk slide by on minor contributions, but not really seeing anything better at the moment.

I'm liking Iec's recent posts. He's playing with the same fairly open mind/reasonableness I expect from him as town. Admittedly, I don't have any experience with Iec-scum, but his exchange, particularly with Fitz, leaves me feeling positive.

On the other side, Fitz screws up his logic in a few places, but he reads a bit more like misguided town (with some confirmation bias) than plotting scum.

[Fate]

Why the fuck is there a wagon on Iecrint?

Unvote:
Vote: Kdub

[Amrun]

Because half the people in this thread are high? Idk.

Voting blocs are fun.

[Fate]

All TOWN voting blocs are hot

Specially when they have beautiful female cheerleaders.

Oh if only LLD coulda been town too....

[havingfitz]

1. I don't know what your point is in the first one. I voted Fate because his early play was scummiest. I said this a long time ago and it should not be mysterious.

2. In context, the thing you've quoted is about my introspection that I would not have made that Fate vote because I want him to steer the ship for me when I'm scum and I can usually make friends with him successfully in the early game regardless of my alignment. *Your* point about ship-steering is unrelated to that original context, so I wanted to make that clear.

3. I didn't check the continuity of when you quoted from or follow your hyperlink or anything; sorry. Early on, I wasn't sure because of meta considerations (as I think I mention in those early posts) and moved to clarify some things until I had time to check the meta. Later, that point remained AND she picked up votes AND I also had other suspects AND I was busy with boards and didn't have time to build a proper case.

I am aware that I have still not reread said game; I'll try to get to it soon.

4. I don't think making friends is a scumtell, though I used to a year or so ago. Rather, I think that coalition-building is an excellent town tactic. I think I first changed my opinion on this issue in Lay of Leithian where it was used against my scumteam.

5. Your inferences about how I use my vote have been incorrect. After my vote is placed, I do not necessarily mess with it again until I've had time to make a decision and so on. You have to look at my text to get an idea of how my mind is being made-up in the interim.

6. Your chart is incorrect because townIec assumes that Fate is town until he perceives evidence to the contrary. So those should *all* read "buddying." This game I perceived scumFate early on, and moved to UNbuddy him. This is the towntell I highlighted early on.

7. I think she is not Ariel and she is scum, but I agree that it's probably better to lynch someone else D1. I do suspect that at least one scum has a tracker and/or watcher ability if she is scum, though.

1. My point was that at such an early stage of the game and with so few posts by Fate and kunkstar, you were already highlighting them as scum suspects and comparing their level of scumminess. I thought that was strange as Fate only had 3 posts (originally I had thought only one post) and kunk only had one.

2. Back to my initial point...you don't like to "steer the ship" as scum and I would describe your play ass not driving anything. Given your confusing (to me at least) position on the person yo've been voting the longest today (Fate) and your current no vote.

3. No need to apologize. The fact is...when you agreed with Robos (post 49) and provided a list of suspicions towards LLd (pre-claim) you failed to vote her. Your original reason of "she had plenty of votes" now being disproved, you are now saying you didn't vote LLd because you wanted to check her meta?

4. My point was that you seemed to be calling Fate and (???) out for it while you were doing it yourself...and much more blatantly at that.

5. OK...so while you did suspect Fate initially (see your point 1) you stopped suspecting him despite leaving your vote on him. Is that what you are saying?

6. This is blatant contradiction. You say as town you initially think Fate is town and will buddy him and that once you thought he was scum you moved to stop buddying him. The trouble with this is that you vote Fate in post 40 "because his early play was scummiest" but rather than moving to UNbuddying him...you proceed to buddy him in posts 46 and 63. This would fall under the scumIec buddies scumFate scenario because if you thought Fate was scummiest (ie scum) and you proceed to buddy him...that does not equate to the townIec does not buddy when Fate is scum scenario you claimed to follow.

7. Ok.

[havingfitz]

Now on to fitz.

Post 210, on the other hand, is very much like what I would have expected scum who killed SpyreX to do.

Good stuff here. j/k. What reason are you attributing to me for killing SpyreX?

He uses SpyreX's flip to justify a town read on LL, and he makes a comment about looking into SpyreX's opinions...oh guess what, he suspected Iecerint!

Lie. SpyreX's flip has absolutely nothing to do with my read on LLd and nowhere do I make any connection between the two. And as you point out (and apparently are disregarding) SpyreX suspected Iec. But just go ahead and ignore that...no need to focus on the obvious.

Up to this point, fitz has said very little about Iec aside from a disagreement about him finding me/SpyreX scummy, but even this post had very little indication that he thought Iec was suspicious because of that.

How much suspicion foreplay do you require to put a vote on someone? You do not express suspicions towards any of your votes prior to the one on me. Granted two of them appear to be RVs but the one, coincidentally enough, on Iec has no previous suspicions voiced. Hypocrite much?

fitz's reason for voting Iec after the fact boils down to "SpyreX suspected him" and not much else.

I followed up on my initial vote Iec with an ISO on him (post 236) where I list everything I find suspect about Iec. If some of those things are similar to what was pointed out by SpyreX, fine. I don't disregard suspicions raised by others if I agree with them. Not sure how many of my points were brought up by SpyreX but I'm pretty sure all of them weren't and regardless, that doesn't mean they aren't valid.

The rest of his case is either rehashing Iec's me/SpyreX suspicion or trying to push an argument about him buddying with Fate (in which he uses LOLmath to suggest that there is a 2/3 chance that Iec is scum).

What is your point here? What is the scumtell you are trying to highlight? Do you support buddying? Do you like to buddy while calling out others when they do it?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've gotta re-read Kdub and Fitz, aswell as Amrun.

[Kdub]

I was hoping to avoid quote wars, but oh well.

What reason are you attributing to me for killing SpyreX?

I thought this was obvious from my post? Your reason for killing SpyreX would be to push an Iec wagon.

Lie. SpyreX's flip has absolutely nothing to do with my read on LLd and nowhere do I make any connection between the two.

While you did unvote her after her claim, in 210 you said "So SpyreX is town and IMO, Fate = town and LLD =~town." I took that to mean that SpyreX's flip contributed to your town read on LL, considering that he was defending her, but I can see that there is some ambiguity there. I'll concede this point.

How much suspicion foreplay do you require to put a vote on someone?

Depends on several factors. The reason I called you out for this is because you seemed to vote Iec purely based on SpyreX's flip. In 236, you do attempt to build a case, but all of this is after the fact, and I already said why I don't think it amounts to much.

What is the scumtell you are trying to highlight?

It's not so much a tell, but rather scum motivation. I see you using SpyreX's flip to justify pushing a lynch, but when the rest of the case is either rehashing of old argument or poor logic, I perceive that as scum having killed SpyreX and using that as an impetus to switch from a failed wagon (LL) to a new one.

---

Something's bugging me about Kast this game as well. I can't explain exactly why, maybe it's meta or something, but his posts do not feel town to me.

[ooba]

The reason I was twitching at Iece's "Town vs. Town" comment on his own fight with Fitz was that it didn't feel to me like

Iece was treating Fitz like a townie

. It just felt weird having Iece say that, especially after Amrun had come out and said it.

Well, I went through the wall - Iece wasn't treating fitz like scum ..

Two points regarding (a) similarity of reactions (b) Current scumhunting for you and Kdub ..
(a) After the SpyreX death, both of you were like ...

The person who shot SpyreX claims now, or is labeled as scum forever.

If nobody claims it, I'll assume it came from scum, and in that case...

In fact - even kunkstar displays this behavior ..

...so likely it's a scumvig and I see no reason to bother with it further as they won't reveal themselves.

(b) Right now it looks like you're playing in "anything which can stick" scumhunting mode
-- You with the *twitch* on Iece
-- Kdub with the case of Fitz (P-edit: You can add "Something feels off with Kast" here too)
Kdub, if your aim was to really ..

I decided

lay low

for a bit after SpyreX's death and

see how players would react.

That directly contrasts with your actions.
#214 - You FOS fitz in the very first post after SpyreX's death
#226 - You speculate that it's mostly a scum kill & "I will have more to say on the implications of SpyreX's death"

If your real aim was to scumhunting by observing reactions to the claim, you wouldn't have said anything and certainly wouldn't have tipped possible scum-off by either FOSing them or even saying "I will have more to say on it, but I want to see what you guys say first" .. It looks like scum-trying-to-scumhunt than actual townie scumhunting ..

[ooba]

*ebwop: reactions to the death

[Amrun]

Guys, quotewars make me sad.

Back with cotent soon. *sigh*

[Kdub]

That directly contrasts with your actions.
#214 - You FOS fitz in the very first post after SpyreX's death
#226 - You speculate that it's mostly a scum kill & "I will have more to say on the implications of SpyreX's death"

If your real aim was to scumhunting by observing reactions to the claim, you wouldn't have said anything and certainly wouldn't have tipped possible scum-off by either FOSing them or even saying "I will have more to say on it, but I want to see what you guys say first" .. It looks like scum-trying-to-scumhunt than actual townie scumhunting ..

Laying low =/= not posting anything whatsoever. I was mainly interested in Iecerint's reaction in particular rather than fitz's since fitz had already posted. Not sure what scum behavior you are trying to suggest here. If I were scum, why would I lie about wanting to observe reactions?

[Albert B. Rampage]

WTF is going on in this game? Quick summary?

[Amrun]

Problems I have with Kdub:

-He stops wagoning Iecerint b/c he is v/la, then wagons him while he is v/la later; after being called on this he says "lolnou," essentially. Still, this is not that important.

-He wagons kunk, saying, "I'll bite," implying he thinks ooba has a reason, but then later indicates he knew ooba wasn't serious about kunkstar.

-I dislike his attacks on Iece and especially the timing of them. I understand him saying, "Why haven't you voted LLD?" But the rest of it falls apart - especially him saying Iece didn't pressure LLD when he clearly did. Later, I dislike him taking potshots at Iece about SpyreX etc. He both takes issue with Iece for not expressing reads in clear enough language, and then for expressing them too clearly.

-I dislike his attacks on fitz A LOT. They're much worse than his attacks on Iece ever were. He FoSes fitz basically for assuming SpyreX was a scumkill, and then two posts later, says SpyreX was probably a scumkill! And 3/4 chance of being scum? That is just silly.

[Amrun]

ABR: LLD got wagonned to a claim. She claimed Ariel, Watcher/tracker. Her wagon dissolved due to claim. SpyreX got daykilled and flipped town.

[Kast]

Spoiler: Lynch Preference Order

Preferred Lynch:

kunkstar7 - Early posts seemed off and seemed to be following others-also semi-inactive/Slightly Scummy

Acceptable Lynch:

Robocopter87 - Playstyle differences make it tough to draw a reading/Neutral
Kdub - Active with Some solid posts but also some not so solid/Neutral
Albert B. Rampage (V/LA) - Neutral-Inactive/Neutral (not enough info/content)
bv310 - Neutral-Inactive/Neutral (not enough info/content)

Beats No Lynch:

Fate - Nothing seems out of character for Fate and I've generally agreed-Also semi-inactive/Neutral (hard to read)

havingfitz - Disagree with a lot of reasoning but actively scumhunting/Neutral Leaning Town
ooba - Disagree with some reasoning but actively scumhunting/Neutral Leaning Town
Amrun - Disagree with some reasoning but actively scumhunting/Neutral Leaning Town
Iecerint - Pro-Town/Neutral Leaning Town

Lady Lambdadelta - Irrational-Overreacting/Scummy (but claimed cop)

Loses to No Lynch:

Kast

The case on Kdub isn't 100% by any means; however, reading him in iso it looks like the push on Iec and the push on Fitz both could be throwing stuff and seeing what sticks. With Iec, there were a few solid points, but mostly just lots of things thrown together. With Fitz, it seems more aimed at taking advantage of Fitz being a less analytical player. I can't say I agree with Ooba's kunk-Kdub tie; but I'm OK with Kdub's lynch, certainly more than almost any other active player (Robo is at about the same level).

There may be some slight OMGUS influence from Kdub's random and out-of-the-blue "Kast is scum by meta-but I'm not saying what meta".

VOTE: Kdub

To be clear, Kdub isn't a strong scum case; I still prefer kunk and will switch if there is support for it. However, I don't think kunk is a plausible lynch at the moment, and with the low amount of content he is posting, I don't see enough material to reasonably convince others to switch over.

[Kast]

Btw, that should be L-2.

[Amrun]

Shoot, I just remembered something else about kdub I found scummy but I forgot it in the 15 minutes or so I waited to post it while I was doing other things.

[Amrun]

Oh, it was his cautiousness in expressing opinions about the SpyreX flip until others did.

[kunkstar7]

Lie. SpyreX's flip has absolutely nothing to do with my read on LLd and nowhere do I make any connection between the two.

Actually you do, in Post #209 although admittedly based on the information that Fate had killed Spyrex. You said "LLd =~ town". This still bugs me. You hold to the point that LLd's claim was more likely to come from town and back off from LLd, but maintain that she is your top suspect. I would think accepting the claim as true would go hand in hand with a town read.