Open 316 - Hard Boiled (Day Two)

[glowball]

oh and by the way... I have just as much reason to think Hoopla is scum, as you have to think I am scum

[Amrun]

It is not the fact that you disagree, as I stated. The disagreeing is null. It's how you are talking about Hoopla's alignment and lack any sort of scumhunting.

Link me some games in which scum suggested mass claim day 1 and it was carried out to scum victory - especially an Open game! CryMeARiver's open led to massclaim on day 2 which nailed scum and I wish we had done it on day 1.

Also point out specific flaws in THIS plan, which is not exactly a massclaim to begin with.

P-edit: You actually don't.

[glowball]

Definitely do- however I am done arguing with you...

You've showed your true colors, you'd like me lynched and wouldn't that ruin your perfect little plan? Oh I know it would...if you are town don't be so full of yourself to let your frustration control your votes. I know I am being difficult...but mass claiming this early is not pro-town and I am playing MY best game to ensure a town win.

[neil1113]

Okay I'm going to risk looking stupid and probably getting heat from others in this game for "not reading the thread" or whatever, which I'm fine with. Hate me if you want. But I can't quite figure out from the postings between Am and Glow, is the plan a no-go?

[Amrun]

Glowball, I only want you lynched if you end up in the no-vig lynch pool if we go through the plan. Obviously.

Even if you, Little Grey, and someone else were in that pool, I would robably pick Little Grey over you to be lynched.

I am using my vote as a scumhunting tool atm.

Your thoughts for why Hoopla might be scum are basically that you think massclaims are bad, without looking at this particular plan or Hoopla's motivations even if the plan WERE bad. You are looking for categorical flaws rather than intention, which is scum-minded posting.

Neil, I don't know. We're still waiting for some people to post and even if they agree glowball might still refuse.

[DarkFlashlight]

HA.

Those who don't agree must be scum!!!!

I think Hoopla is scum, because I have yet to see a mass claim on day one that was town motivated. I think you are a sheep- but between you and Dark trying to paint me as scum, idk..

So everyone who carefully read and agreed to Hoopla's well-thought out plan are sheep, but if you rebel against it because you read "massclaim" and stopped caring there, you're town?

Also, multiple people saying you're acting anti-town doesn't mean they're a scumteam. It means you're being anti-town.


The massclaim is a good thing. Unless vig dies, it's hard for town to lose. What you should be worried about is the vig pool getting evaporated, not exposing PR's.

oh and by the way... I have just as much reason to think Hoopla is scum, as you have to think I am scum

Hoopla thinks Hoopla is scum for no reason specific to this game?


Also, I'm guessing you'll read this and think something similar to, "They said I could say no, but when I do they argue with me." That's because we disagree with your reason for saying no.

[Hoopla]

One player isn't going to hold the town hostage to play the game her way, when the whole town wants to play by a plan. This is just giving scum an easy out, when a plan has cornered them. I'm not suggesting glowball is necessarily scum, but she is making it easier for them.

This is kind of getting ridiculous. Glowball, unless you can pick faults with the plan as to why it's less likely to yield a town win than normal, you're going to have to comply. Saying no for the sake of saying no, when the plan requires EVERYONE on board is just foolish. You shouldn't get to have your way if you're not going to do a thing to prove it is better.

~~

We should start to do the Det-Psych/Not Det-Psych claims once everyone is ready.

[glowball]

NINJA'D

sheep can be town...they are just confused/misguided townies.

Right now, there is almost no way any of you have a good grasp on who could be scum or not, I mean besides me because I've decided to speak out against the plan. I never said it didn't sound good, but so do a lot of things and their are several ways it can go bad. The vig can die just by random NK-- scum get lucky...I did in a couple of games. The plan is not rock solid and really nothing is, but I don't like that you all just hop on board . I know I'm town, it's the rest of you I'm worried about and instead of using the time to put pressure on people and actually figure out who's scum you've decided to play by numbers like they can't be manipulated. I want Hoopla gone because if she is scum no doubt she's already thought of a way to turn the tables. If she's town, then she can claim at L-1 if she wants and if it's a PR she lives.

I feel bad for you guys acting like know-it-alls...I am open to this plan, but you have to pitch it better. I am not seeing that it's all that beneficial, and no I am not pointing out flaws because I don't have that burden. I just don't have to participate and if you lynch me for that then you go off of your plan and you cannot go forward unless I agree to claim..>WHICH I DID but the loud mouths just had to continue antagonizing

But regardless- you guys can get your attitudes together or throw your plan in the garbage and have me lynched instead.

[Hoopla]

The vig cannot die by a "random NK". By hiding the vig in a pool of non-confirmed players, we essentially assure it can't be lynched without exposing who it is to scum. If we have three PR's out in the open, scum NEED to kill those players, because if they shoot for the vig and miss, they lose the game because we can close down the VT/non claimers quicker than they can close down the PR's we have claimed, thus equaling a town win.

This means it's a REAL risk if scum go for the vig, as them missing loses them the game. And when they have at best, a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of hitting it tonight, there is no rational way they make that play if missing equals losing. This means, scum are forced to shoot at one of the PR's, giving the vig a free shot tonight and tomorrow (and likely the next night too). Which is exactly what we want, because it supremely benefits town, as it gives us extra chances of hitting scum via the method of killing MORE players.

The more players the town gets to kill in the game, the better chance we have of hitting all the scum. You cannot argue that the town has a better chance of winning if we have three mislynches available, than if we have three mislynches and two/three misvigs available.

[glowball]

are you sure you have all of the PRs on board....and have we discussed how to handle counter claims?

[swankidelic]

Counterclaims can be disproved, at least by the results of their night actions. Coordinated night actions can be more effective. It's actually a weak move for scum, because it increases the chance of two counterclaimers of being scum to 1/2, up from like 1/3 or 1/6 if they hide in the other pools. It also telegraphs to the town how many scum are in the PR pool.

glowball, your signature sums you up perfectly. I was courteous and patient when I posted my summaries but you completely ignored them, and focused on the people who were attacking you. I don't mean any offense by this, but I'm willing to bet you don't really care much about the plan, you're just rebelling for rebellion's sake. Am I way off-base there?

On another topic, I thought we were going to massclaim at the end of D1? I guess we need time to sort out potential counterclaims?

[glowball]

My signature does sum me up...that was the point

I do care about the plan, and I genuinely think it's something to be skeptical of. As far as disproving counterclaims you cannot until Day 2 after the Night Phase, so we give scum a free pass for day one??? We should always try to hit scum first...no matter what, even though mislynches happen day one they aren't good or acceptable

[swankidelic]

Well, good, I'm glad we're on the same page =) You're right, the plan deserves skepticism. I was skeptical at first, I agree that a D1 massclaim is a weird thing to ask. After looking at Hoopla's plan, though, I believe it'll work out regardless of her intentions. If not, it's an interesting thing to try. You're free to come to your own conclusions, though.

Also keep in mind that proceeding with the plan doesn't mean we won't scumhunt as per usual - the plan relies on scumhunting and makes scumhunting easier. We won't give anyone a free pass on day one.

[neil1113]

Glow, you keep bringing up the possibility that Hoopla is scum and using this plan to her advantage? In your mindset, how would this plan benefit the scum team, if you were scum? Because I can only write this off as town minded, considering how it turns the playing field to benefit us, and not them? Unless I've missed something?

[glowball]

well we will just have to wait and see how people flip...

[swankidelic]

To be frank, glowball, if you don't go with the plan, you'll probably get lynched. Take from it what you will, but remember that Mafia is just a goofy little game.

[glowball]

For the record ONCE AGAIN...

I said I would go with the plan, until some arrogant townies decided to keep harping on me about my initial hesitation, but if you guys want to lynch me just because I don't go with your plan, how exactly does that help your plan?

[glowball]

Honestly, I appreciate you swank for being blunt and I get it. But I am not going to be held into a plan I didn't agree with and wasnt around for, lynching me would be against your win condition because that is all it's based off of, but I understand and I am not going to bend over for arrogant people.

When they learn how to talk to people respectful in a mature manner, I will be more cooperative.

[andrew94]

I never said it should be stalled, but I am asking for a summary not of the game but of a plan I wasn't around for during it's conception. ONE THING- the plan.

We are on the same team

and if you don't want to help me understand what you guys have had days to talk about then don't.

For the record, I am reading but if you guys are trying to hear my thoughts and speed up the process then you should help. If not then you can wait while I read and work on my other games as well and I will get to this when I feel like it. Does that work better for you? Probably not, but those are the only choices short of lynching me for not wanting to read.

Also, the only reason I even ask and refuse to read is because I am against this plan. I am giving you guys the chance to pitch this to me because as it stands I will not be participating.

We are on the same team

unvote vote glowball

[swankidelic]

If you don't cooperate, we'll be forced to abandon the plan and scumhunt as normal. At that point your odds of survival are grim.

So, yeah, there was a total flurry of discussion between Hoopla and Muffin at the start. That doesn't mean your input isn't valuable. It totally is. Then, I think Amrun was a little harsh. It started with her exasperation and the conversation took a nosedive. Pretty much everyone else, though, has in fact treated you with respect, behaving rationally and inviting you to criticize the plan.

If people apologize to you, will you play along?

[glowball]

I don't need the phony back handed apologies, and I am not here to survive that is where people are wrong. They are upset with me and willing to get rid of me as if it hurts just myself, this is a team game and voting me is putting yourselves down one player who will actively scum hunt and is doing so in the process of all of this-- my refusal reveals a lot and if I am forced to go by lynching then so be it. But I really hope you guys are smarter than lynching someone who disagrees--what motivation would I have to be outwardly against this plan? even still? just to put heat on myself? really...not smart, but I will understand and accept it as stupid play if I have to go and hopefully town will still win.

[Quilford]

I promise to stop procrastinating on this game soon.

I have holidays beginning this Friday, so I'll be on as much as I can then.

[Quilford]

Would it be more beneficial to claim PR instead of specific PR (obv. vig doesn't claim) and then go from there?

[neil1113]

I don't need the phony back handed apologies, and I am not here to survive that is where people are wrong. They are upset with me and willing to get rid of me as if it hurts just myself, this is a team game and voting me is putting yourselves down one player who will actively scum hunt and is doing so in the process of all of this-- my refusal reveals a lot and if I am forced to go by lynching then so be it. But I really hope you guys are smarter than lynching someone who disagrees--what motivation would I have to be outwardly against this plan? even still? just to put heat on myself? really...not smart, but I will understand and accept it as stupid play if I have to go and hopefully town will still win.

I for one apologize if anything I've said offended you, or made you think I was upset with you! I'm not at all, and like Hoopla said, I welcome criticism. I had my own when she first mentioned it. (And I still do.) However I believe your input is valid, valuable, and valutatious (that's totally not a word, but I wanted to continue the pattern here..) and I enjoy you playing this game. I for one will fight against your policy lynch, as I don't believe there should ever be a moment where town should policy lynch, especially not a policy other than VI. However, please take note that only one person said they'd be willing to lynch you, and that one person seems to have very little say for the town itself. Which come to think of it, the town itself has been awfully quiet ever since the formation of this plan has begun...

Would it be more beneficial to claim PR instead of specific PR (obv. vig doesn't claim) and then go from there?

I think you're missing the point of the plan. Re-read over it and see why we'd be claiming det. / not det. as the first round.

[Quilford]

Oh okay I see now.