Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Zindaras]

was the message MBL received similar to the message somebody else got earlier?
honestly i havent read over the game and id like to know, its relevant to my interests.

They're similar in that they were night messages incriminating another person. The odds of them coming from the same source are pretty good.

[Katsuki]

How is Porochaz still alive?

[Zindaras]

How is Porochaz still alive?

Who the hell are you even?

[Porochaz]

How is Porochaz still alive?

This is a triumph.
Im making a note here. HUGE SUCCESS.

[Kublai Khan]

How is Porochaz still alive?

Better question: How is Albert B. Rampage still alive?

@Albert B. Rampage - Did you shoot Yosarian2 or Internet Stranger? (You promised one or the other).

Vote: Toon Fighter

He should be wagoned and we should get a claim to find out if his survivalist attitude is warranted.

[SensFan]

Just got back from Goofbash, will catch up later.

[Ranmaru]

Here are llama's reads:

@MBL
TF is either scum or a VI, either way the way the wagons on him are acting I want to see what is actually going on there since they are growing fast and falling apart fast with little reasoning each time.
RC needs to calm down, but I dont think he is really scum for anything here. ABR too. Same with Sens, all of them need to just shut up a little. This is almost as bad as the "rage post" people who already ruin games on this site. If they dont I would be happy vigging/lynching them so they stop trying to force the game and not let anyone else get a word in.
Ran/GB im torn on, I thought GB was scummy but have a slight town read on Ran so far.
Poro I would be exceedingly happy with a vig of, sure he is one of the people I always read as scum, but the entire play from the slot has been very underwhelming.
Furc I still say is kinda town from his day one still to me, and that I dont like the members of that wagon he had.

His TF read seems like a possiblity that he might have copped him, but wasn't sure if he was a miller or not.
I hope he didn't get an inno on RC. (He seemed he wanted to derail it)
He has had a great suspicion of my slot day one, but then had a slight town read on me. Possibility he scanned my slot, but also possible he just saw me do more than GB did.
Furc doesn't seem possible because he had a town read on him from D1.

He didn't mention Death note there though.

@ LF: I am a pro-town program, I am not a miller

All other pro-town programs should claim at this point like this.

This is going to be like Jurassic Park mafia, almost for sure. There is probably is a cop that picks up on what the percieved threat is (programs) and there will be one or more people who ARE programs but are town aligned. Anyone who fits this bill needs to say it, just look at the win condition, NOTHING about eliminating programs is mentioned. Going back to the other game, nothing about eliminating dinos was mentioned (infact that caught the SK day one when they fakeclaimed), and there was a pro-town dino.

Only twitchy thing is that I *somehow* guessed a pro-town program in my first shot so im a little nervous that TF thinks im an actual cop

(I did get that message) with a 'guilty' or something on him (which I would never have checked him)... will come back to that later though.

unvote
Vote Poro

I don't know what he meant by this, but it seems like something good to point out again.

Ok, you know what.

I propose a policy lynch of someone who is actually somewhat scummy.

Vote DeathNote

This is far far worse then he normally plays, and already is beginning to basically claim intention of not going to do anything else for the rest of the game. Sure its day two, but im not going to put up with it, and apparently my hope that he was going to get vigged is out the window with recent developments.

Here it seems like he is trying to derail RC's wagon instead of pushing for Deathnote last minute as a scum scan. If he got an inno on RC it would be a good gambit to try and get something out of his role while he was still here. (Most likely because he knew RC was going down hard)

There, wagon achieved on DN.

Of course im lying about being alignment cop in this situation, I just wanted to actually make competing wagons and this was the only way I figured that it was a possibility before deadline hit.

You dont investigate someone who is going to be vigged or waste possible confirmed town status

.

I will say this though just to continue to WIFOM scum here - Regardless of my role (VT or other), I DID recieve that message last night. That is 100% truthfull.

If this was true, it would mean he wouldn't have scanned TF or DN. I also think DN's reaction to his guilty was ANOTHER part of his gambit.

I *could* get behind a TF lynch since im not sure the odds of hitting a miller with my fishing there (I swear if someone says 10%...). Feels very convienent, but at the same time, I can think of two "pro-town" programs in the movies off the top of my head and its been years since I saw them.

See here. I think in his mind DN was more of a priority than TF at the time. He mentions TF possibly being a miller here. This would make me think that DN was a priority before TF was, but I think this may have been part of his Gambit.

Llama. Considering the fact that I would love to shoot you right now for acting condescending to us feeble minds and pulling bullshit stunts, its quite likely that others (like Albert) just might as well. Wouldnt it make more sense to just spit out what information you have instead of lording it over us like free cheese before you turn up dead tomorrow?

My gambit did what it was supposed to do, not going to say what it was supposed to do right now since that would eliminate all of the gain it created. As I said,

it was ment to accomplish multiple things

, and

it succeeded in a few of those

.

He said it was supposed to accomplish multiple things, and a few of those succeeded. That would be at least two. I would guess one that didn't succeed was a wagon ready to lynch Deathnote, but that would be a stretch. I would think derailing RC's wagon was another, reactions to his claim, and that is all I can think of.

Llama, why do you want to lynch me instead of lurkobvscum DeathNinja?

Because he isnt "obvlurkerscum".

I have a leaning town read on both of you

, however the town tells from you are weaker, and the fact that far more people have openly admitted to being ok with the lynch of you yet not supporting you instead of him make me like your wagon more.

This is also a bit less like a TF scum scan read. I would think he COULD have gotten a guilty on TF, but was unsure of it's accuracy because of him asking TF if he was a miller of some sort.

Cop of me/RC slot is possible. Don't remember if he suspected RC's slot. Oh wait, RC hammered while still being lazy and not reading the whole game during D1, so I guess it could warrant a copping from Llama. Llama has seemed to cop people that would possibly be lynched the next day so that he could force the scum to try to look townier. (This was what he did in Open 300) so I do think it is very possible he copped RC. It lines up with his desperate plee to begin counter wagon.

I think if he didn't get a scan on RC, It would fall in between TF/DN. He hasn't mentioned DN at all, not even as a read, so I would think it was part of the RC DERAIL WAGON gambit. It succeeded in a few ways. I would also guess Llama didn't really know TF might have been a VI seeing that he said in his reads "TF might be scum or a VI". This would mean he wasn't sure and hasn't really solidly been sure of his VI'ness. (This would mean that he could have copped TF not thinking he was VI-ish)

Basically, Llama seems to like to cop Lynch bait but was most likely confused by the message he got. Also, I'm sure he was waiting for a wagon to be near climax so he could sort of semi-crumb a guilty because he knows that the Doc (Amrun) is already dead so he would have to sneak it in a crafty manner.

This was pretty confusing though:

@TF - Are you a miller or a pro-town program? Yes or no.

And also, Llama voted TF THREE times yesterday. I want to think Death note, but I would say a TF guilty or RC inno were highly possible. Which ever of TF/DN is lynched, the other should be vigged. Plz? So, I will be voting TF because I think it was possible Llama got a result on TF, yet wasn't SURE of it's accuracy because, he had a slight town read on him, if you see his post regarding him and RC end of D2 above.

Unvote Vote: ToonFighter

Btw, I think him asking "Are you a miller or a pro-town program?" may have been really asking for "Are you a miller?" and that win con stuff may have been also a gambit so he could ask deflect the real purpose of his question. Thoughts?

[Ranmaru]

Zindy:

Explain how it was a weird interaction.

1869 through 1871 are hilariously flabbergasting.

Ah yes it was weird indeed. I meant to ask him why he thought Poro was town, but I was unclear and he thought I asked why he said Town. That reaction was a bit scummy.

I was fine with my vote on RC. He stalled for so long and only caught up NEAR DEADLINE OF HIS LYNCH. He wasted our time by being a main distraction for so long until around deadline. His fate was sealed.

-The people who deposited their vote on RC and then kept it there without adding anything else were wasting time just as well.
-There was no serious case on him besides the lurker thing. This was taken away by his catching up later. You can argue all you want, but providing meaningful input on a big game after replacing in can be quite a challenge. I remember using a full weekend to catch up to Kingmaker II.
-His catchup would've provided us with massive info if he were scum. Scum have massive incentives to just lurk through the deadline when they are on the block. Now who did that? *scratches thin thoughtfully* Why, Toony did.

I have noticed that as well.
Again, he lurked from D1 to near D2 Deadline. I replaced in and caught up within two days. I had a quick pbpa and summary so that I could have jumped in to discussion. He took longer and even hammered Surye without even a read.
Yeah, that is true...

Why are you inclined to vote Toony? What are your thoughts on Death note?

For Toony, see above. I felt there was a pretty good case on him yesterday, especially for him over RC. Time has not made him look any better, but now we can choose between everyone so I'm not sure if he's my absolute top suspect. I skimmed DeathNote and he's quite sane yesterday. Solidly against lynching RC, preferring Toony. I dislike his preference for Vez Day 1. Those two days kind of even themselves out, leaving me at neutral. Then there's LF's claim yesterday. This is why I'm solidly in the "Town shouldn't lie. Ever" camp, kids. The main problem I have with it is that the whole thing doesn't make sense, at least from my perspective. Llama barely mentions DeathNote throughout Day 2. If he had been gunning for him all day and then made and retracted the fake claim, I would've been okay with it. But he didn't. That evidence is circumstantial at best, though DN's case is not helped by LlamaFluff's death. His reaction is also a tad on the cool side.

If you want me to vote DeathNote, you'll have to come up with more.

Not necessary. I am now voting TF. Check my previous post.
You are right, he barely mentions DN and votes TF three times and mentions him even more.

[Ranmaru]

TOON FIGHTER AND DEATH NOTE. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS MBL HAS ASKED YESTERDAY, THANK YOU.

@Toonfighter:

Day 1, you said you thought DeathNote was scum, and you mentioned ISOing him and mozamis. You switched off DeathNote to Furcolow with reason:

As I am not getting anything satisfactory out of DeathNote

and then took Sens's evidence and the Furc self-vote to indicate that Furc was a "scumbag". Later, you said we should vote a vanilla townie, and said Furc was the better choice of the two claimed ones. You criticized CES-mozamis for switching from Furc to Surye last minute. Seems like your suspects are Furc and CES.


Day 2, you called out DN start-of-day for voting you but didn't follow up. You proceeded to suspect Llama for "wanting a cop to come out" and Kublai for his slide onto the Surye wagon. You attacked and voted ABR for being "active" D1 and for defending Surye. Seemed to ignore your top two D1 suspects out of the gate.

When ABR claimed vig, you called out the RC wagon and said Brian, Sens and Poro were potentially "on the same scumteam" "trying to bandwaggon another (town) player" next (Furc yesterday, RC today). Then you sit the fence on Furc:

I still maintain that Furc may be scum, but since that trio is now together on a different player, I find that unlikely.

You switched to pile on the RC wagon with those three "scumteam members":

I am looking at the case on RC again, and, despite being led by SensFan, whom I still don't like much, I don't like that he keeps lurking and just trying to slide by after he was caught doing it. Plus, his vote on IS is just terribad. vote: RC

ReaperCharlie (3) - (

BrianMcQueso

,

SensFan

,

Porochaz

)
ReaperCharlie (8) - (

BrianMcQueso

,

SensFan

, Internet Stranger,

Furcolow

, Yosarian2, Ranmaru, Toon Fighter, Medicated Lain)


Doesn't add up. Are Brian, Poro and Sens scum or not? Is Furc scum or not? Is RC scum or not? Why have you ignored DeathNote all D2? What do you think of CES-mozamis?


It looks like you've moved to the popular wagons today. Why have you been such a hopping, inconsistent mess?

Also, why didn't you ask DeathNote for further clarification on his vote of you?

Care to explain why, DN?

You are my biggest scum read.

@DeathNote

, you voted ToonFighter right off D2, then hopped off when the Kison=Cult thing came up. Why'd you unvote? Also, why haven't you made a case on ToonFighter today or asked him much of anything?

[Ranmaru]

@EVERYONE: I WANT THOUGHTS ON MY #1906.

@Porochaz: Thank you for explaining the sliding scale thing you referred to. Basically I voted DN for the reaction, and his scummy play. (For example, he wouldn't answer me but would answer you, why do you think that is so? Why haven't you followed up on that question you asked Deathnote?)

[Porochaz]

Im not sure what you are referring to but if you mean my read through it will take me a bit to force myself to read through again and lying naked in my bed at 5am is not the time looking at mafiascum instead of sleeping it just doesnt feel like the right time.

[Ranmaru]

Oh ok. Look forward to it then.

[Ranmaru]

@Brian: I want to ask about the Defense scumtell you were using on Yos. Have you ever caught scum with it before?

[Toon Fighter]

I believe that Sens and Poro can still be scum together. I didn't like RC's play yesterday and I don't regret the wagon on him. I didn't ask DN further questions because I kinda forgot about it and wanted to find scum more than convince DN I wasn't scum. Furc/his replacement is likely not scum.

I should prob claim now. I am the Keymaker.

[Medicated Lain]

Zind: Death Ninja seemed like a better candidate than TF with what I had read.. as I said, I have viewed TF's posting more as just inefficient play/bad town. Death Ninja's posts were a giant overload that really annoyed me to read through, and i noticed a whole lot of crap spewed all over the place through it. TF looks kind of different now the Hez flipped scum, I'd be willing to bet that one of TF or Sensfan is his scum buddy... but I want to ISO them again before making a decision. I don't really have the time or energy to view over things like I'd like tonight though. I will post again tomorrow.

[Zindaras]

Btw, I think him asking "Are you a miller or a pro-town program?" may have been really asking for "Are you a miller?" and that win con stuff may have been also a gambit so he could ask deflect the real purpose of his question. Thoughts?

Of the possible investigations, I think TF is the most realistic. The bolded line you quote could very well be a breadcrumb (Just replace guessed with investigated and you have a perfect cop sentence. He might've backed down because Toony claimed program immediately, which is probably why he also asked all programs to get out into the open immediately, so that he would be more certain of later results (I'm operating under the assumption here that he was a program-cop, which stands to reason given his posting).

I was fine with my vote on RC. He stalled for so long and only caught up NEAR DEADLINE OF HIS LYNCH. He wasted our time by being a main distraction for so long until around deadline. His fate was sealed.

-The people who deposited their vote on RC and then kept it there without adding anything else were wasting time just as well.
-There was no serious case on him besides the lurker thing. This was taken away by his catching up later. You can argue all you want, but providing meaningful input on a big game after replacing in can be quite a challenge. I remember using a full weekend to catch up to Kingmaker II.
-His catchup would've provided us with massive info if he were scum. Scum have massive incentives to just lurk through the deadline when they are on the block. Now who did that? *scratches thin thoughtfully* Why, Toony did.

I have noticed that as well.
Again, he lurked from D1 to near D2 Deadline. I replaced in and caught up within two days. I had a quick pbpa and summary so that I could have jumped in to discussion. He took longer and even hammered Surye without even a read.
Yeah, that is true...

-Then why didn't you do or say anything about it yesterday?
-But not everybody plays as few games or reads as fast. He mentioned having to catch up to several other games as well and, looking at the way he did finally catch up, his methods are fairly time-intensive. I'm sorry, but it just happens. I've taken longer than him to read less posts when I just wasn't feeling like Mafia or when I was busy. Quite frankly, the only thing I found him suspicious for was the Surye-hammer, but, then again, I find the people who voted Surye "to ensure a lynch" when the rules clearly stated it wasn't necessary and Furc was also very close to death just as scummy.

I believe that Sens and Poro can still be scum together. I didn't like RC's play yesterday and I don't regret the wagon on him. I didn't ask DN further questions because I kinda forgot about it and wanted to find scum more than convince DN I wasn't scum. Furc/his replacement is likely not scum.

I should prob claim now. I am the Keymaker.

What does the role do?

[DeathNote]

Keymaker is a good program in the movie.

[DeathNote]

Panzer night 1

And... it looks like I didn't use it night 2.

[Ranmaru]

What are you talking about?

[Ranmaru]

Nvm, that's a diff game, sorry.

@TF: What does your role do?

[Kison]

Toon Fighter, you again failed to respond to 1828.

My vote has little chance of moving until you do.

[Toon Fighter]

Day Two began May 25th. LlamaFluff didn't even mention Death Note until his

policy lynch

post on June 08. Between the start of Day Two and that post, he voted:

-

Toon Fighter

-

GummyBear

-

Toon Fighter(again)

-

Porochaz

He then proceeds to claim a guilty result and retracts it shortly after. If that is his idea of bread crumbing a guilty result, it's quite terrible. It made no sense at the time and makes even less sense now.

He also said he had a message for Kison as a Cult recruiter, but thought it was fake. In my eyes, Llama may have tried to get out of the way first, and go on for DN afterwards. I have to admit now, it doesn't make too much sense that he did have a guilty on DN. Reading Ranmaru's post, I am also inclined to believe he may have had a 'machine' on me or a innocent on RC. For that reason, and as I re-think Llama's play, I shall

unvote

.

The Keymaker has a 1-shot BP protection.

[Kison]

was the message MBL received similar to the message somebody else got earlier?
honestly i havent read over the game and id like to know, its relevant to my interests.

Yes it was very similar. Both likely to have originated from scum.

This means that, as far as I'm concerned, LlamaFluff wasn't breadcrumbing a result with his D2 opener and Kison's off the hook for that.

If you are town and truly believed this was even remotely possible, I am going to be very disappointed in you.

Do you think TF show's VI like qualities? I think his whole play all game was bad, just not necessarily scummy. I also think Sensfan is a good candidate for lynch too.

Perhaps, but I can't fathom a town motive behind many of his actions, and that he continually refuses to explain why he thinks my scenario is less likely than that of LlamaFluff breadcrumbing a guilty on Death Note suggests to me he is fabricating suspicion and attempting to ride an easy wagon(well, no longer an easy wagon).

(pre-post edit: looks like he

finally

acknowledged my post).

Reading Ranmaru's post, I am also inclined to believe he may have had a 'machine' on me or a innocent on RC. For that reason, and as I re-think Llama's play, I shall

unvote

.

I don't think this is likely. LlamaFluff specifically said

he would never have investigated you

.

[Zindaras]

This means that, as far as I'm concerned, LlamaFluff wasn't breadcrumbing a result with his D2 opener and Kison's off the hook for that.

If you are town and truly believed this was even remotely possible, I am going to be very disappointed in you.

There are possibilities. It wouldn't be the silliest breadcrumb I've ever seen. Also, like I said, I don't think it's anything to lynch anyone over, but if we start seeing dead Cultists, we need to take this very seriously.

Anyway, I'm really happy with my Toon Fighter vote. The claim has every single characteristic of a Mafia claim.

[BrianMcQueso]

Based on Ranmaru's 1096, I would guess that LF's cop results were flavored "program" or "not program". It makes sense, given his question "are you a miller or program". It's something I should have picked up on earlier... that's not the kind of question I would have asked without any hint that there might have been pro-town programs in the setup.

The Keymaker claim is not very believable to me. He is such a minor character in the series, and there are so many vanilla townies. Maybe it's just me, but there are so many other characters in the Matrix I would include before The Keymaker. And how does that character's flavor translate to a one-shot protection?

I've been going over HezLucky's posts, to try to see his patterns as scum, and if there's any relation to ToonFighter. Overall, I get the read that Hez was trying to bus ToonFighter for his scummy play, while always seizing the opportunity to both make himself look good if TF was lynched and turned up scum, or to hop off the TF wagon if it looked like he could spare his partner. He also never missed an opportunity to tie TF's behavior to other players. The evidence I offer to support that claim is under the spoiler tag, because there's a lot of quotes:

Spoiler: HezLucky, A Retrospective

At the start of the game, he quickly ties TF to Yosarian after a post by ToonFighter that made him look bad:

The fact is, I could see Yos2/Toon Fighter scum based on above.

And every time he votes or suspects ToonFighter, he also includes another suspect, or leaves room for a vote swap:

Though offhand Toon Fighter's last post looks awful and SensFan looks just as bad for not calling him on it (despite being the very next post)

I want to vote either Toon Fighter or SensFan. TF has promised a post, and I am going to read it before deciding which.
Do I vote for the scummy-sounding scum, or the useless noscumhunting scum?

Yeah, at least Toon Fighter is giving me something to go on for later analysis.

Vote: SensFan

Ranmaru - I would _happily_ switch to Toon Fighter. See my points list. Not RC though. As we approach closer to the deadline, I'm happy to switch to TF. Happy with my vote on SensFan, though.

since we have a deadline. unvote, vote: toon fighter incase I do not get better by then

In Hez's post 1484, he builds a case on ToonFighter. In that same post, he tries to tie him to SensFan:

The combination of SensFan's interaction with Toon Fighter here (I thought it was ridiculous that SensFan would not call out Toon Fighter for such a ridiculous post -- he actually did, but not for the part of the post that
was ridiculous) and ToonFighter's distancing of SensFan in post #1316 (below) leads me to believe a possible connection between the two.

----later, in same post----

Oh look. Distancing from SensFan. Oh look, Toon Fighter is voting for the current lynch leader which is something he has largely done all day (when he's not busy plopping his vote onto someone useless).

And then Hez hops right off the TF wagon he had spent so much time building, but then hops right back on:

Llama needs to full-on claim right now then. None of this "oh but I forgot to mention this part of my role" incase he's wrong. He came out with it.

...while we're at it, so does DeathNote

Unvote, Vote: DeathNote

*sigh*

My preferred lynch is Toon Fighter.

Unvote, Vote: Toon Fighter

TL;DR: When a scum player keeps a player in their top two suspects the whole game while the other player changes, they are giving themselves the freedom to both lynch and not lynch their scum buddy, based on what is best for them at that point.

Also, ToonFighter does not mention "Hez" or "HL" or, from what I can tell, HezLucky in any way shape or form all game, save for one time when he's quoting something someone else said about Hez. That's odd, considering how much suspicion Hez had thrown at him. TF had addressed Amrun when Amrun posted a big case against him, but ignored Hez completely.

Now, I admit that all the stuff I just posted was tunneled on only viewing Hez in relation to TF and vice versa. I do need to go back and see how Hez treats the other players in this game, but I'm starting to feel fishy about TF.

He's already got 6 or so* votes on him though, so I want to discuss this before lynch.

*

(mod: vote count plz?)