DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

[Hinduragi]

You guys can keep up your shenanigans about what to keep out of scum hands. I've already figured out what I want so I'm just waiting on Defcon 4. I know this has been stated but, to put it clearly, you have an option as Submarine to nuke publically or privately from what I understand.

I want to propose an idea. Say you go for Fail Safe because it's a fun role and everyone wants a fun role. Should you claim it as soon as Defcon 1 lands down?

Non claimed-
Pros:
Your death will be avenged.
If targeted by mafia who is protected somehow by his teammate, you are allowed to reveal his name and set up a lynch.
Awesome nukes at anyone who defies your power.

Cons:
You can hit a town player if he nukes you.
Can't avenge yourself from a Terrorist kill. (I'm assuming the Terrorist doesn't use a nuke)
You will probably be lynched once claimed unless you're :goodposting: continually.

Counterintelligence isn't all that you're make it out to be. Scum will have to be psychic to be able to use it correctly. It's not going to be super-high on their lists either from what AV showed me of their roles in Defcon 2 and from what I know of my mindset in Defcon 1.

[Gammagooey]

Oh, that does make the super-tunneling thing not apply since everyone can just yell at the person to cancel the nuke if it's bad.

Still think that if someone is hilariously obvtown then they should be able to use defensive mode but if they're that town then well they're town so we can all chill about it.

Fail Safe is worse than a missle silo in over 95% of situations (exceptions are scum with battleship and the protectee nukes you or probable scum claims fallout shelter since it goes through everything or dying n2) so you should really just go sub->missle or get something else instead like Magua suggested.

[Zhero]

The first half of counterintelligence is not very worrying, since they have to specify both the target and the form of investigation used, making it kind of a crapshoot in most cases. The second half is pretty vicious though, since it effectively covers two night phases as well as the day phase in between. Definitely agreed that it's worth trying to keep out of scum hands.

Defensive mode is an odd choice, since you're sacrificing a day-vig for self-survival; some seriously good rationale would be needed to back that as a town-choice.

ALSO I JUST NOTICED, WHY IS PERCY NOT IN THIS GAME??

Yeah, I'd noticed that too, guess we need a new Eavesdropper :(

[Katsuki]

Oh, that does make the super-tunneling thing not apply since everyone can just yell at the person to cancel the nuke if it's bad.

Still think that if someone is hilariously obvtown then they should be able to use defensive mode but if they're that town then well they're town so we can all chill about it.

Fail Safe is worse than a missle silo in over 95% of situations (exceptions are scum with battleship and the protectee nukes you or probable scum claims fallout shelter since it goes through everything or dying n2) so you should really just go sub->missle or get something else instead like Magua suggested.

No one is to have nukes in defence mode. Let scum claim if they want to nuke hilariously obvtown players, the trade is worth it.

[Katsuki]

Counterintelligence isn't all that you're make it out to be. Scum will have to be psychic to be able to use it correctly. It's not going to be super-high on their lists either from what AV showed me of their roles in Defcon 2 and from what I know of my mindset in Defcon 1.

You realize that scum can't communicate normally in QTs at all for fear of Eavesdrop, right?

Eavesdrop we definately want town to have, then counterintelligence.

As Magua already said, all town players that want nuke should put sub as first choice, then nuke.

Actually, I probably should go back and dig up some of the Defcon v2.0 posts, there were some gems there as to drafting if I remember.

[ooba]

I guess I'm in favor of total war because most of my early day reads are right. But I can live with this too ..

Here's how I see the roles\draft:

Submarine: Silent Daykill

- Should be number one or shouldn't be on your list at all

Air Base: Night Action immune (including Night kills)
Espionage: Cop for specific Faction (Mafia catcher + info role) - Doesn't make sense going after the terrorist unless you're scum
Aircraft Carrier: Roleblocker (Night Actions + Nukes)
Battleship: Doctor (Night kills + Nukes)

- Good stuff. The only part where I disagree with Magua is that Air Base is a much more useful role than Fighter - esp. for those who get nightkilled often. Putting sub first and any of these second will guarantee you wont get these so you'll have to take a call here.

Compared to Espionage, these info roles are tier II. Can still catch scum in claims\actions:

Fighter: Deployment info

(Terrorist catcher)

(Clarified by Mod)
Radar: Tracker (minus Night kills)

Relatively not useful for town:

Fallout Shelter: Nuke immune - At best, protects town from any anti-town Subs
Fail Safe: Reflexive killer on Nuke attack. Vengeful on Night attack.

Useless for town:

Eavesdrop: Possible eavesdropper
Counterintelligence: Framer+Godfather ability (Plus one night to communicate normally)

---

P-edit:The framer+godfather aspect of CI is next to useless. And both eavesdrop and CI's ability for scum to communicate normally become obsolete if scum can come up with good codes for communication .. I'd rather people try to get the good roles rather than waste their time with these roles ..

[Gammagooey]

Katsuki if it's pretty obvious they're going to die, either from consensus the day before or from a cop investigation or a launched nuke or whatever there's nothing preventing them from nuking the towniest person in the game if the battleship is dead or in scum hands. Having one or two uber-towns in defensive mode could be really helpful for preventing that, and it'll probably be pretty obvious who the obvtowns are (hint: they probably nuked scum earlier)- if there's a non-obvtown in defensive mode then yeah it dies.

[Hinduragi]

Counterintelligence isn't all that you're make it out to be. Scum will have to be psychic to be able to use it correctly. It's not going to be super-high on their lists either from what AV showed me of their roles in Defcon 2 and from what I know of my mindset in Defcon 1.

You realize that scum can't communicate normally in QTs at all for fear of Eavesdrop, right?

Eavesdrop we definately want town to have, then counterintelligence.

Counterintelligence is only good in that sense if the eavesdropper has to claim.

Re-read to see why you said that and saw someone MoI quoted about the unsecured QT. Yeah, CI is useful.

[Hinduragi]

Still, CI isn't that great when you compare it to better roles. I'd hope that, after 2 previous games, scum would know to establish a type of steganography or something else during Defcon 5.

[AlmasterGM]

[Day 1, DEFCON 4]

"So, about that report."
"Yes, sir. I trust you see what I was talking about?"
"No. I don't. It says here that, "No sudden increase in military strength is currently needed. Emergency mobilization strongly not reccomended."
"Mr President, I..."
"Strongly. Not. Reccomended. Look, George, I appreciate everything you've done are and are trying to do. But we don't need it right now. Understood?"
"Yes, sir."
"Good. Now, that being said, it's time for some new assignments."
"Indeed, sir. The task force has been reviewed and is nearly ready for your signature. We just need to allocate them properly according to their strengths and weaknesses."
"Excellent. I trust you and your assistants can handle that?"
"Of course. I'll have the briefings and the approval form ready on your desk in just a few days."
"Looking forward to it."
"Me too, Mr President."

---

[NORAD SYSTEM] ALERT. ALERT. Enemy movement detected.
[NORAD SYSTEM] Checking for false positive...
[NORAD SYSTEM] No errors found.
[NORAD SYSTEM] Analyzing...
[NORAD SYSTEM] Additional analysis required.
[NORAD SYSTEM] Forwarding...

---

"General Boaz, we've got something."
"What is it?"
"European missile cruisers in the North Atlantic. They've moved west past Iceland - over 250 nautical miles past their usual deployement area."
"Are they moving quickly?"
"Moderately, sir. Their movement patterns don't suggest hostile action, but we do not yet know the full extent of their firepower."
"Estimates?"
"None yet, sir. We're working on it."
"Alright, good work. Bring us down to DEFCON 4."
"But I thought the President said..."
"I know what the President said. However, the President is currently at a dinner, and we have what may be a legitimate threat on our hands."
"Very well, sir. Do you want the threat level raised in just the Atlantic region, or the entire..."
"The whole nation."
"Yes, sir, but NORAD's systems have..."
"Now."
"Yes, sir."

It is now Day 1, DEFCON 4.

Total War has failed -

the game will progress as normal. All players have until Monday, 13 June 2011 at 23:59 EST to submit their deployment preferences. If you do not submit by this time, a missile silo in nuclear launch mode will automatically be deployed for you. If all deployements are received before this date, DEFCON 3 will begin as soon as possible.

[Katsuki]

Katsuki if it's pretty obvious they're going to die, either from consensus the day before or from a cop investigation or a launched nuke or whatever there's nothing preventing them from nuking the towniest person in the game if the battleship is dead or in scum hands. Having one or two uber-towns in defensive mode could be really helpful for preventing that, and it'll probably be pretty obvious who the obvtowns are (hint: they probably nuked scum earlier)- if there's a non-obvtown in defensive mode then yeah it dies.

Anyone with a nuke in defensive mode will be lynched on site. No questions asked. It's a scumclaim.

[ToastyToast]

Useless for town:
Eavesdrop: Possible eavesdropper
Counterintelligence: Framer+Godfather ability (Plus one night to communicate normally)

Its my understanding that Eavsdrop was responsible for most of the correct lynches in the last DEFCON. The person who selects it has to be confident in their abilities, though. Counterintelligence is useful in that it takes the power away from scum.

[Gammagooey]

:madface:
I'm not lynching obvtown and it should be obvious that lynching obvtown is bad. Anyone else with it I will be happy to help you lynch.

[Katsuki]

OH YEAH I DON'T KNOW IF I'VE SAID THIS YET OR NOT, BUT I STRONGLY ADVISE ALL WHO HAVE NOT PLAYED BEFORE TO GO READ DEFCON 2.0.

[Regfan]

AGM - You replied to Zhero stating that you've fixed the number of players error but I still get 23 from adding the role distribution in the OP. Is it 19-5-1 or is the setup something completly different?

Although there are obvious downsides to locking people into a draft order or attempting to organize claims; being it allows mafia to know where they're better able to direct their choices I believe it's needed to have a few roles that everyone agrees need to be targetted by town members. Also, for those who have mentioned that Eavesedropper was pivitol in the previous editions of this game would you recommend aiming for it in this one?

Magister, your stance is completely contradictory. You're stating that it's safest to go total war to give nukes to hothead players ie. Players that will be rash in regards to who they shoot, then you're stating you want lurkers nuked.

Magua, can you explain how vengful is suboptimal to pick? The way I'm reading it taking it allows direction of a kill upon death as well as prevents mafia from attaining a free kill if they were to recieve it.

(The original post has been updated. --AGM)

[Katsuki]

Fail Safe works as such: If a nuke is launched at you, you automatically fire a nuke back.

So if everyone with a nuke were to nuke you at the same time, you'd fire nukes back at everyone.

[Magua]

Magua, can you explain how vengful is suboptimal to pick? The way I'm reading it taking it allows direction of a kill upon death as well as prevents mafia from attaining a free kill if they were to recieve it.

It has two effects:

1) If someone nukes you, you *must* nuke them.
2) If you are killed by the scum (but *not* if you are killed by the SK), you may fire a nuke at anyone.

There's only two situations where it is better than simply having a missile silo:
1) If you are killed by the scum N2. In this case, you will get one nuke off whereas if you had a missile silo you'd get none.
2) If you can make multiple people fire nukes at you.

In all other cases, it's worse than a missile silo, because the missile silo would either give you at least as many nukes, and given you a choice as to when and on whom to use them. It's really the choice that makes missile silos so much better.

#1 is obviously pretty unlikely -- 1/22 chance.
#2 is also very unlikely, and is a bad strategy because there are better alternatives.
In the vast majority of cases, you will get to fire off 0-1 nukes throughout the game, and even if you fire, you will have no choice as to who this nuke is aimed at.

Fail Safe makes a great scum claim, because it makes people not want to nuke you and at the same time excuses you from having to commit to positions by using your ability.

[Vi]

ooba got the value of the Fighter right over Magua's guide. By the end of Day 3 everything worth revealing will probably be public.

Also, for those who have mentioned that Eavesedropper was pivitol in the previous editions of this game would you recommend aiming for it in this one?

Some chance of getting coherent message drops is better than no chance. Basically how I see Eavesdrop working is one of the following:
*You have usable content and understand it. Post it when you have enough to justify not getting more.
*You DON'T have etc. etc. You hold it until someone launches a nuke on you and then you spam the thread with it.

If I had a vote it would be stuck to Zhero.

[Hinduragi]

Also, for those who have mentioned that Eavesedropper was pivitol in the previous editions of this game would you recommend aiming for it in this one?

Only if you're willing to put a lot of thought and time into the results.

Also, I fucked up again. I assumed you would know who killed you with the Stealth Bomber when using Fail Safe. I feel all kinds of blind right now.

[Magister Ludi]

"Magister, your stance is completely contradictory. You're stating that it's safest to go total war to give nukes to hothead players ie. Players that will be rash in regards to who they shoot, then you're stating you want lurkers nuked."

Not quite what I am saying. (This isn't worth belaboring since it isn't going to happen) I was saying it is optimal play for town to go straight into defcon one. It certainly isn't safer, but that is what makes it better for town. Because scum will know some players have nukes, they will be less likely to lurk otherwise the will GET nuked by said players.

Hot-heads aren't nessesarily rash (where did you come up with that), they are impulsive. I for example, would nuke a scummy looking lurker on sight. Ergo, scum will not lurk, will be forced into activity, and will probably be caught out since an active scum role is a lot harder to pull off then not.

By the way, I didn't like how you tried to twist my words there to imply I was saying something I was not.

[Magister Ludi]

Also, general question, In the previous defcon game, were the scum more or less active then normal?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think with the amount of town players we have (19), it might be beneficial for some town members to try and steal powers that the scum would want dearly.

[danakillsu]

I don't support Total War

It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

Explain.

Maybe the recently ending Superhero Mafia will explain what I'm talking about. Look how horribly a few town kills that were in the hands of one player screwed the town over. Emphasizing our "vig" shots and taking away our ability to talk things over is most likely going to confuse people and help the scum.

These shots are not only public, but each player only has one shot each day. PLUS they can be canceled.

Jeez dana it's as if you're trying to pretend you've never played Defcon mafia or something...

Okay, so the town can discuss with the launching player, and even threaten them. That doesn't change what I'm saying. The one player still has the power to take out a townie single-handedly, and possibly get themselves lynched in the process, which would kill two townies. But it's not happening, so I guess this discussion isn't so useful any more.
I do not see how this could possibly be construed as pretending I've never played DEFCON before. You're the one that's telling me rules I already know as if I'm a noob.

[Katsuki]

I don't support Total War

It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

Explain.

Maybe the recently ending Superhero Mafia will explain what I'm talking about. Look how horribly a few town kills that were in the hands of one player screwed the town over. Emphasizing our "vig" shots and taking away our ability to talk things over is most likely going to confuse people and help the scum.

These shots are not only public, but each player only has one shot each day. PLUS they can be canceled.

Jeez dana it's as if you're trying to pretend you've never played Defcon mafia or something...

Okay, so the town can discuss with the launching player, and even threaten them. That doesn't change what I'm saying. The one player still has the power to take out a townie single-handedly, and possibly get themselves lynched in the process, which would kill two townies. But it's not happening, so I guess this discussion isn't so useful any more.
I do not see how this could possibly be construed as pretending I've never played DEFCON before. You're the one that's telling me rules I already know as if I'm a noob.

I took your words slightly differently. I see what you're saying now.

[Katsuki]

I think with the amount of town players we have (19), it might be beneficial for some town members to try and steal powers that the scum would want dearly.

No really?

It'd be nice if town had Espeonage, Eavesdrop, Battleship, Sub and Counter. These imo are probably the most useful PRs either in the hands of town or scum (battleship especially is something scum want).