Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian –

Scum

. I see a little more talk about theory and less scumhunting. I feel this is the most scumhunting he has done:

I really wish ABR hadn't claimed. He was already obv town and wasn't going to be lynched today, all this does is get him nightkilled. Oh well, he's basically confirmed town now unless someone counterclaims him on the Vez kill. There's zero chance that a SK or a mafia kill a claimed vanilla townie lynchbait like that.

ABR being confirmed town makes both Toonfighter look even worse right now. I really hate the no-logic Albert vote Toonfighter has had since last week. And now all RC has done is make a no-reason vote for a townie on day 1, and terrible

Scumlist:
RC
Toonfighter
Kison (Still wish this guy would get a little more attention. I hate the way everyone is just letting him basically fly under the radar this game.)

unvote

Vote:Reaper Charlie

...

What the hell game are you reading?

Posts in ISO where I've done agressive scumhunting, and attacked/questioned/put pressure on/tried to convine people to vote people who I think are likely scum, today alone:

53
57
58
59
60
65
67
68
71
72
75
77
83
85
86
87
88
97
99

In those posts, I've attacked, questioned, poked at, or made cases against:

Kison
CES
Zinderas
Reaper Charlie
Toonfighter

There might be a couple of people in the game who have done more scumhunting today then I have, but there aren't many. Feel free to disagree with my cases or whatever, but pretending I haven't made any is just silly.

[Ranmaru]

Mr Buddy Lee, why are you addressing questions at a faster rate near deadline? Maybe it's just me (and being shocked to see your post in preview mode). Example, you address Primate about his non-existance NOW instead of earlier. Of course I see you address people before deadline, but not as much as you did today. I actually like it. Am I correct? (I did like the post regarding TF)

How do you feel about NS lurking? Have you played with him before?

[Death Ninja]

I branch a bit when I do ISOs sometimes, so there are a few questions/points aimed at others in it. I'll bold them.

Bamboomancer/Kublai Kahn-

ISO 1, calls Vezok null (both the claim and the win condition)/ KK replaces in

ISO 2 focuses on vezok, 4 players he plans to question the next game day (near deadline)- ABR, IS, Kison, RC

Makes good point against ABR
Didn't really notice his point against Kison, may have to look at that later
Votes Surye for bad defending

ISO 8

IS's answer was that white knights are scum, but he wasn't a white knight (you defended them, how is that different that being a white knight?)

Yos's answer to how many games he played with Surye (to validate the fact that he had sufficient meta on him to think he was town) is, not there. Interesting that KK ignored it again nor does he answer the context question. I looked at Surye's wiki and it only shows one game they played together, and Surye was scum (http://67.222.17.61/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8119)

Overall, slot isn't too scummy with the few posts it has made. (EDIT: according to Ran, he is v/la, but he hasn't posted that in thread)

Agar/NS

ISO 1/2: Strongly supports Vezok being town (IS doesn't mention this, given his stance on Vezok- which supports the fact that IS was 'white knighting' Vezok a bit – I think this is a bit scummy, especially how he states that Vezok isn't smart enough to manipulate his meta. Seems like he is trying to dismiss anything that could point to vezok being scum.

ISO 8: Continues to only attack vezok attackers

ISO 15: Makes sense to me.

ISO 17: Don't agree with this, but null thinking (may come up in post game discussion though)

ISO 29-33: Hop on the Surye wagon is very scummy. He hopped off one wagon because it wasn't getting more votes (though it had enough for a lynch at deadline). He claims he didn't know about the deadline lynch rule, but when pointed out he doesn't go back to furcolow. I would think if he thought the furcolow wagon was better, he'd go back on it and hope that the other 2 people who jumped off because of thinking the same thing would do the same, or some of the people not on either would vote furcolow.

Combine this with NS playing other games but not posting here, I'd say Agar is more likely scum than town.




Got to go for a bit, will try and ISO a few more when I get back, or at least tomorrow.

[MrBuddyLee]

Yeah, but why didn't you go after him to start D2?

[MrBuddyLee]

@Yos, yeah, but why did ToonFighter drift off your radar? Did he do something you considered townish?

[Ranmaru]

Mrbuddy lee, was that addressed to me, or Yos? (your previous post)

[MrBuddyLee]

Mr Buddy Lee, why are you addressing questions at a faster rate near deadline? Maybe it's just me (and being shocked to see your post in preview mode). Example, you address Primate about his non-existance NOW instead of earlier. Of course I see you address people before deadline, but not as much as you did today. I actually like it. Am I correct? (I did like the post regarding TF)

How do you feel about NS lurking? Have you played with him before?

Why are you asking pointless questions of a player you're pretty sure is town?

[Ranmaru]

That isn't a pointless question. Why not?

Plus, asking a read from a town read isn't point less.

[Ranmaru]

*I noticed the burst of posts and I was curious.

[Ranmaru]

Yos - Fair enough. Now, can you give me one line reasons as to why you believe each person is scum? I only agree with your RC scum read. Also, why do you selectively quote me?

[Yosarian2]

@Yos, yeah, but why did ToonFighter drift off your radar? Did he do something you considered townish?

(shrug) Not really. Mostly I just changed my focus at the start of day 2 to trying to find scum on the Surye mislynch, because at the time the only solid facts we had were that Surye was town and Vez was town. TF spent most of day 1 pushing the Furc wagon, and I can't really analyze that too much until I know Furc's alignment.

That being said, no, there really aren't any day 1 TF posts that scream town to me. All in all, I'm quite willing to lynch TF today.

[Death Ninja]

Still continuing with my re-read, but I have a strange suspicion that this will be useful.

[BrianMcQueso]

BMQ you know that I'm probably giving you points (once I get around to it) for your terrible terrible list because it's clearly made up, right?

This is my "Caring About Hez's Point System" face ->

(or maybe )

So, what about my list is made up? Would you like to go into more detail about that? 'You are lying to the town about what you think of each player' is a pretty hefty accusation.

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum

My objection is not with defending yourself, but the degree that you do. Case in point, I put you as the 7th scummiest player on my list (it was ranked), with the following:

Yosarian2 - I think Yos's reactions to the accusations are much stronger than the accusations being raised against him. It smells slightly defensive.

The extent you go to defend yourself:

The whole "being defensive is a scum tell" thing is, and has always been, bogus. Everyone should always defend themselves in detail against any reasonable accusation (and against most unreasonable ones as wll).

If you're town, and someone's calling you scum, either their facts are wrong, their logic is wrong, they're jumping to conclusions incorrectly, or at the very least their argument is inconclusive. One of those things must be true, and whenever someone accuses you, it's your job to say why they're wrong.

I tend to consider failure to defend yourself properly a scumtell, and defending yourself to be null at worst.

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum; I was amazed how easy it was for a scum to get a mislynch using it. Step 1, attack someone. Step 2, when they defend themselves, call them defensive. Never failed.

You can find similar trends in your other posts. Someone will address you with a "I disagree with you"

Consider a hypothetical scenario where Player A says "I think B might be scum." and Player B flips out and posts a mile-long post defending himself from every possibility, finds a dozen other, scummier targets, and blasts Player A for even thinking that B might be scum. I hope we can agree that that level of defensiveness is scummy. So at some point, the defensiveness is a tell. Defending yourself isn't, but the degree to which you do is analyzable information.

[Ranmaru]

Brian, what is Yos's motivation as scum to defend himself 'on that level'?

[Death Ninja]

Oh yeah, Death Ninja is scummy to be for active lurking and stalling to the very deadline of his own lynch. EVEN hammering without giving reads at all. Did he explain why he did that? I think Batt explained a possibility of why he did it, but not an actual explanation as to why.

I did it because that's what I do. References are available upon request.


Also: Did you ever answer my post #1614? If not: do so, and with haste.

[Death Ninja]

Actually, EVERYBODY should be answering my questions from my catch-up posts. Please and thanks.

[Ranmaru]

I will answer that shortly.

[Yosarian2]

Yos - Fair enough. Now, can you give me one line reasons as to why you believe each person is scum?

One line? Heh, probably not, but I'll make them short.

RC- Scummy resistance to actually play the game for as long as he could possibly get away with it. Very weak reads all around, inconsistant stories on activity. Even now, his analysis posts don't really give me a good idea of who he suspects or why, it's just random facts; that would be fine if it was a month ago.

Some people are blaming some of that for RC's meta, but Battousai's posts from that slot are almost as bad, and I for a fact that he's a quite skilled town player.

Toonfighter- Very bad and scummy attack on confirmed town Albert, that he did right after other people had voted Albert. Very terrible logic on this vote. Poor quality play overall, contradictory play about furc on day 1 (as I mentioned, he made a case defending Furc for lurking and then voted him for lurking in the exact same post).

CES- His vote on town Suyve day 1 was really bad. The timing was bad, and I still have no idea why he decided to suddenly drop the Furc wagon and leap over to the Suyve wagon. It's even odder the way he attacked me for NOT voting Furc for the vanilla claim at the same time he was unvoting Furc; consistanty is a lame argument, especally if his read that Furc was town was similar to mine (and if it wasn't, why did he unvote Furc?). CES is generally really hard to read, but when he's town I usually agree with his votes when he's making them, even if he dosn't explain them I can see why he's doing it based on what's going on at the time. This game, I generally can't, and when he does explain himself the logic feels off.

Kison- Also had a bad vote on Suyve day 1. Hardcore active lurker for most of the game; other then his vote on Suyve, did almost nothing day 1. To be fair, he has gotten a little more active since I called him out for active lurking, and I kind of like his toonfighter vote (if you look at his posts in ISO, it would be post #23). So he's dropped down a little on my person scumlist, and I haven't attacked him for a while. Still not convinced he's town, though, and he still needs to post more content to catch up .

Zinderas- Of the 5 people on my scumlist, he's the one I'm least confident about. Dislike his Suyve vote, although at least he provided a little more reasoning then Kison or CES did. Dislike his attack on Albert today. I dislike more the way that when I pointed out the flaws in the logic of his attack on Albert, he didn't really respond to my point, only attacked me for defending Albert; when I see someone do that, my first thought is "he's trying to force through a mislynch by trying to scare off the defenders". He also seemed to spend more time on day 1 talking about how we should be scumhunting then he did actually scumhunting.

All in all, I COULD see Zindy playing this way as town; he hasn't made any huge scumtells, and he does normally have kind of a cautious playstyle that's intolerant of "sloppy" play. That being said, I don't have a good feel about him overall.

I only agree with your RC scum read. Also, why do you selectively quote me?

meh. The only line I didn't quote was your line about how I was "mostly responding to people and talking about mafia theory", and I think I just explained to someone else that responding to attacks is good.

Also, something about the idea of responding to an attack that I "spend too much time responding to posts and too much time talking about mafia theory" by responding to your post using mafia theory to show that responding to posts and using mafia theory is pro-town seemed pointless and counterproductive.

Meta jokes aside, I think it's a good idea to respond to specific, concrete points against you that seem to be factually incorrect, so I did. I also think it's a usually a good idea to try to respond to posts addressed at you, so I do that too. I also do plenty of independent scumhunting as well, though; it's not like doing one prevents you from doing the other.

[Kison]

Toon Fighter: Now that Death Ninja is posting content, what do you make of your vote?

Since ABR just claimed vig, and I see no reason to keep voting him, I

unvote

The way you phrase this sentence, you seem to be unvoting ABR for more than just his claim. Please explain in detail why you believe ABR is no longer a good vote.

[Yosarian2]

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum

My objection is not with defending yourself, but the degree that you do. Case in point, I put you as the 7th scummiest player on my list (it was ranked), with the following:

Yosarian2 - I think Yos's reactions to the accusations are much stronger than the accusations being raised against him. It smells slightly defensive.

The extent you go to defend yourself:

The whole "being defensive is a scum tell" thing is, and has always been, bogus. Everyone should always defend themselves in detail against any reasonable accusation (and against most unreasonable ones as wll).

If you're town, and someone's calling you scum, either their facts are wrong, their logic is wrong, they're jumping to conclusions incorrectly, or at the very least their argument is inconclusive. One of those things must be true, and whenever someone accuses you, it's your job to say why they're wrong.

I tend to consider failure to defend yourself properly a scumtell, and defending yourself to be null at worst.

I first figured out that "being defensive is a scumtell" thing was crap during my first few games as scum; I was amazed how easy it was for a scum to get a mislynch using it. Step 1, attack someone. Step 2, when they defend themselves, call them defensive. Never failed.

You can find similar trends in your other posts.

Heh. Yes, I realize the irony of logically thoroughly defending myself against an attack that I'm too defensive, but the point is that there is no such thing as "no defensive" at all. It's a myth. Any attack should always be fully responded to, period.

I hope we can agree that that level of defensiveness is scummy. So at some point, the defensiveness is a tell.

Why?

Defensivness isn't scummy, period. If you defend yourself against a mild attack with a mile long post, then that might be an overreaction, but it isn't at all scummy; there's no reason to think scum is more likely to do that then town.

Now, if you're defending yourself without scumhunting, that can be scummy, but there the tell is the lack of scumhunting, not defending yourself. If you're defending yourself in detail, it pretty much just means you're playing the game properly; nobody wants to be lynched, and if you let even minor incorrect arguments against you stand without responding to them, it's very likely to come back and bite you on the ass later in the game.

Defending yourself isn't, but the degree to which you do is analyzable information.

Well, anything is "analyzable", but it certainly has no relation to alignment.

[Ranmaru]

@ML: I think Llama was trying to derail the RC wagon, instead of "making a competitive wagon". People really are trying to avoid an RC lynch. If RC flips scum, I'd think llama would be scum. The reason why it seemed desperate was because Llama tried pushing for DN before claiming the track. It was also odd because he never even addressed DN the whole DaY. I have seen him as cop before and that wasn't the usual play.

Yos seemed to be fine with possibly going with Llama's plan, without questioning it first. I don't see much townieness from Yos, but neither do I see scumminess. He's null to me. He hasn't really commented much on others I think. I will look at that post and the first 5-10 pages again to make sure.

Also I have a town read on you. I don't get why people tried to wagon you.

And you make a good point about TF.

What happens if I flip town? Who's scum then?

Just for the record.

Hmmm. Sensfan. IS. Furc. TF. Deathnote. ABR. Sensfan is minor, but lurking a bit. Seems to be sitting on you. Furc, along with the ride. IS, he voted you to prove a point that ABR scum = RC SCUM. Deathnote because he was calling the wagon stupid without good reason. ABR because he is avoiding it like the plague.

Llama is still individually scummy.

[BrianMcQueso]

Defensivness isn't scummy, period. If you defend yourself against a mild attack with a mile long post, then that might be an overreaction, but it isn't at all scummy; there's no reason to think scum is more likely to do that then town.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. In my eyes, I see it as:

*The mafia's motivation is to survive as long as possible (a defensive motivation)
*The town's motivation is to find the scum before their time runs out (an offensive motivation).

I understand everyone has self-preservation (d) in mind, which also leads them to wanting to get others lynched rather than themselves (o), but I can't agree that there's absolutely no correlation between alignment and defensiveness.

[Ranmaru]

Hmmm. Then should a townie not defend against a scum's attack? (Maybe it is easier to look at the people who are scumhunting the least and up)

Scum motivation is to survive, but they must also paint others as scum to MYSLYNCH, that is how they survive. So essentially how can you know if someone is scum if they are scumhunting and defending?

[BrianMcQueso]

Hmmm. Then should a townie not defend against a scum's attack?

My objection is not with defending yourself, but the degree that you do.

[MrBuddyLee]

#305 (MrBuddyLee): "[Day 1 lynches often being mislynches are] More likely due to lazy fuckface scum hiding out and not posting while town eats their own." == Dat Irony. This from the guy whose first non-confirm post in the game is on page 13 and a week after he confirmed. Scummy. (-1 for MrBuddyLee)

Joke, meet the back of Charlie's skull. Thunk.

The fact that you're continuing to post halfhearted analysis at this point despite the near-inevitability of your lynch is mildly townish. If you were scum I'd have expected you to leave things up to your hydra partner and headed off for some Yoohoo and Portal 2 co-op. Please continue.