Mini 1186: Repo! The Genetic Mafia - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Vote:Battle Mage/b]

Zydrate comes in a little blue vial.

[Yosarian2]

Hi, everyone! Please note that my name's spelled bvoigt, without an H.

I'll keep that in mind, bhvhohihght.

[Yosarian2]

Didn't I tell you not to go out? Didn't I?

(you did, you did)

Didn't I say the world was cruel? DIDN'T I?

(you did, you did!)

unvote

vote:Haylen

[Yosarian2]

Lol. Sorry, I just spent about 2 hours listening to the whole soundtrack again on youtube, now I can't get it out of my head.

[Yosarian2]

They're not lip synching. They just have surgically replaced their lips and tongues with new ones that create sounds slightly out of sync with how their mouths moved. Expensive, but worth it.

[Yosarian2]

mass NAME claim. A very different thing.

You are against it then? Why?

Suggesting a mass name claim for no reason is pretty anti-town here. There are a pretty limited number of named characters in Repo!, and they ones that are town are probably all power roles.

[Yosarian2]

Suggesting a mass name claim for no reason is pretty anti-town here. There are a pretty limited number of named characters in Repo!, and they ones that are town are probably all power roles.

I've been going back and forth on this post of yours. I think I'm landing on the "not liking" side of the fence. It's just a very, very bland post. Apart from stating the obvious, it's stating the obvious to a question that was not directed at you, as well as stating the obvious that has already been put into the thread by the person to whom the question was asked (post 60). It feels like an attempt to look active and engaged but is actually a very bad attempt at doing so.

What exactly was this post supposed to contribute to the thread?

"Answering a question not directed at me" is a really silly accusation, considering Incog already answered the question; it's not like I'm preventing anyone from answering anything. If it's "stating the obvious" that a name-claim is incredibly anti-town, then why are we talking about a name-claim?

As for "what it's supposed to contribute"; don't you want to know if Camn is being deliberately anti-town or if she somehow thinks that suggesting that was a pro-town thing to do? For that matter, just killing the suggestion before something stupid happens like people just starting to claim (which happens ALL the bloody TIME these days) is itself pretty damn pro-town, thank you very much.

Seriously, what the hell? Person A makes an anti-town suggestion, person B says "no, we're not doing that, it's anti-town", and you attack person B for that? That makes zero sense.

[Yosarian2]

1. The fact that you're stating the obvious is bad because what you have added to the conversation is fluff. It's fluff because the very narrow point that you're making - that name claiming at this point in the game is a bad idea - had already been made to some degree by numerous other players at the time of your post (see 3. below). It's an attempt to look like you're contributing when you are not. Your question about "why are we talking about name-claim" appears diversionary. We're talking about a name-claim because camn made a really bad suggestion. There's nothing more to say about that, so I'm not sure what your point is.

This is an ENTIERLY self defeating argument.

Either it's obvious, or it's not. If it's clearly anti-town then Camn, one of the best players in this game, shouldn't have suggested it unless she's scum, and she needed to be asked about it. If it's unclear, then it needed to be said. Honestly, both are probably true; Camn should have know, but just because mass-name claim is obviously anti-town to me and to you, it dosn't mean there wasn't a significant risk of other people just randomally starting to claim because of that comment. Stuff like that happens ALL THE TIME. I can't remember when the last time is I played a game when I *DIDN'T* see people claim for terrible reasons when they obviously shouldn't have.

Also, I'm pretty sure I was the first person to actually explain WHY mass name clam in this specific setup was such a bad idea, so no, the point "had no been made".

2. The fact that you're answering a question that wasn't directed at you is bad because there's no reason for you to answer it. You're not preempting anyone from responding, that's true. But your response is unnecessary. The question has been answered. Exactly on the points that you have provided. Once again, this makes your post look like filler.

Your whole argument is this terrible "your post was unnecessary" thing. My post was entierly necessary.

For that matter, why are you leaping in here instead of just letting Camn respond for herself? The way she answered it might have given me a decent read on her alignment, and you've probably screwed that up now.

3. Your post in no way contributes what you are suggesting it does in the quote above.

Again, this is just badly wrong. Even if all I was doing was agreeing with what other people had already said (and I was not), doing that is a really good idea when there's such an anti-town suggestion on the table.

Finally, the fact that you're qualifying (what I believe to be) a fairly benign, "intro-suspicion" inquiry post (#79) as an attack is interesting. Heck, I even undercut the force of any suspicion I had by suggesting in that very post about how wishy-washy I was to even post my suspicion. But to you, this is an attack?

Of course it was an attack. In what universe is this not an attack?

I've been going back and forth on this post of yours. I think I'm landing on the "not liking" side of the fence. It's just a very, very bland post. Apart from stating the obvious, it's stating the obvious to a question that was not directed at you, as well as stating the obvious that has already been put into the thread by the person to whom the question was asked (post 60). It feels like an attempt to look active and engaged but is actually a very bad attempt at doing so.

I'm a little confused why you're now denying it was an attack. Yes, it's a slightly wishy washy attack, but what you were getting at was pretty obvious.

[Yosarian2]

We get it, Pine. You think it was a scummy action. But that's a conclusion. You have to back that up with the reasons as to why it is a scummy action

and not just bad play

.

You've got your burden of proof reversed there, I think. If someone does something that helps the scum and hurts the town, the first logical conclusion is that they are more likely to be scum then they were before they did that act. If you want to argue that it's null, that it was "just bad play", then you need to actually make that argument.

[Yosarian2]

And Yos: As someone I respect very much once told me, I am QUITE precise in my posting. (well, I try to be). Go look at my question about massclaim again. Asking about it did what I meant it to do. I, for one, consider the matter closed.

Ok.

Were you at all worried about the possibility that someone might respond with a "Sure, that's a good idea, my role name is _______; battle mage, you go next"?

[Yosarian2]

I'm leaning towards TripMyWire being scum.

Vote:TripMyWire

First, his reaction towards Camn seems off:

Why, yes! Thanks for asking.
1. When reading through the posts I did not find camn's suggestion of a name claim terribly scummy. I don't think it's a great idea at this point, and I see why people would jump on it as if it were scummy, but to me it just didn't seem like scum would suggest something like that. Those were my first thoughts. Then she pointed out how she does that kind of thing often, which concerns me a little because it could possibly be used as a cover. That, to me, concerns me more than the actual suggestion of the name claim if it were to be an isolated incident.

Why would it bother you *more* that she does it often? If she does it often, and has done it as town, dosn't that make it less of a scumtell? I think it's plausable to suspect Camn for the claim thing, but he seems to not find it scummy, but then say it's scummy because she's done it before. Huh?

In the same post, he also kind of has it both ways with Pine, first calling him scum and saying the "town" line was a scum slip, then turning around and doubting himself. Don't really like that.

I also really dislike his attack on Incognito:

I never got a scummy vibe from her so I've been looking into this. You're saying she's obviously scum because of the inconsistency you pointed out with another game? I kind of mentioned it earlier, but at first I had a feeling from your posts that you were trying to toss out ideas to see what would stick... and then you rolled dice for your decision. Also, Haylen's "bandwagon" on you at the beginning was obviously not serious, but you reacted it to as if it were. I really don't believe there is anything scummy in the inconsistency you are basing your case on... I only read town things from Haylen and your belief that she's obvscum surprises me. Or am I taking the definition of 'obvscum' too seriously?
Unvote, Vote: Incognito

I really don't get why he's attacking incog here...are you attacking him just because you don't agree with his logic on Haylen?

And in his next post:

I don't really see why me finding her to be obvscum would be worthy of a vote though; that kind of came out of nowhere.

Well, I was still going on my random vote and since you're now my #1 suspect why wouldn't I vote you? A quick review reveals it became the only vote on you at the time so it's not like it was too threatening. You seriously voted me for just being online when the PMs sent out, and you rolled dice for another vote... I don't see it being all that radical by comparison.

He justifies it by saying "Incognito is my #1 suspect at the time." That's really odd; in a previous post, he attacks Camn, Bvigot, and Pine, but he dosn't vote for any of them. Why is Incognito your #1 suspect, when you made stronger points against other people just a few posts ago?

[Yosarian2]

I would like other player's input on my Yos suspicions. I've only seen Haylen "commenting" (in a warped understanding of the word) on it. I would like third party input on my suspicions because I thought they were fairly decent but nobody's said a damned thing. A thumbs up or down will suffice.

Huh. Are you claiming that your "yos suspicions" were intended to be serious now?

Really not liking this, gc. First you attack me for a really silly reason (which was basically "Yos said something that someone else had already said"), but fine, it was early day 1, I figured you were just trying to get a reaction and get something going, so I responded to you. Then you denied that you'd been attacking me at all, while attacking me further, and then after spinning up three attack posts on me out of nothing, you attacked me for defending myself against your attack posts ("104 and 105 come across as scatterbrained and defensive"). Now you're trying to get support for this attack by asking other people about it.

Whole thing looks like a textbook example of "how to push a bad lynch against someone when you don't have a case against them".

[Yosarian2]

@MLain- This is day1 with effectively 11 strangers, some of which I played with before either as town or scum. However, since this is a new game, I have to dismiss all the earlier stuff, and consider 11 strangers. That is the basis between my exchanges with Magua and Camn. So, today I read, watch, participate, and guess along with everyone else. But as for "real case"s like every else seems to get day1, it usually doesn't happen that way for me.

As a matter of fact, need to wait for the next trigger to send me into a voting frenzy.

Unvote.

P-edit:
@Bvoight- Currently, seems town enough to not hang day1.

Stiil, bvoigt is right, PeregrineV. You kept your vote on Haylen, while the Haylen wagon was at 3 votes and the largest in the game at the time, while defending Haylen at the same time. Can you explain why you decided to do that?

[Yosarian2]

I suppose i'll offer a courtesy

FoS: Yosarian2

for inconsistency of argument. Why are you attacking Tripmywire for something (admittedly i hadnt noticed this) that i am equally guilty of?

How is it "the same thing"? Yes, you and tripwire both attacked Incognito, but your attack seemed like it might have had pro-town motives behind it. It looked like you were actually reading Incog's post and questioning his logic, while Trip just looks like a scum who's doing fake-scumhunting and planting a vote for no real reason.

Also, Trip is trying to have it both ways on pretty much every wagon in the game, and is generally acting like scum. There's more then one reason he's my main suspect right now. Don't write him off as town just because he agrees with you, BM.

I'd like to see Yos explain why Incognito's diabolical logic against Haylen is not scummy.

Hmm? I don't think it is scummy. He pointed out she's not acting or thinking like she has acted in other games in the past when she was town, and gave links to demonstrate; that's a pretty reasonable meta-argument. Not an especially strong argument, but fine for the early stage of day 1.

He's also saying that Haylen-town tends to meander all over the place and generally do weird stuff, while Haylen-scum is more calm and controlled. That's probably a true meta of her, based on what I've seen. Haylen is a stronger scum player then she is a town player; not that she's a bad town player, but she's won, what, 3 games as SK in a row or something?

Finally, id like to see him give comment on Medicated Lain.

Hmm? Don't really have much of a read on her yet. She hasn't done much so far, but that was also true of the last game I played with her, and she was town then.

Why her?

[Yosarian2]

Whilst you've impressively circumvented my point, i must ask for some more detail, because you yourself allude that you have been less than forthcoming till now. Why does my attack seem protown, and his seem scummy?

Circumvented your point? I answered your point.

Don't get me wrong, I think Incog is probably town here, but Trip's attack on him was much worse then yours.

This was your post:

Trip, Haylen is obvscum because she's pretty obviously making up stuff as she goes along. The meta thing was one piece of evidence, but if you read along with my post 14 you'll see me pointing out more of her making stuff up as she goes along too.

The other reason why I think Haylen is obvscum has to do with meta, which I don't expect you to know about -- Haylen tends to get much more emotional and all over the place as town but in this game she seems fairly stable, which is scummy for her. Plus there's the fact that everyone and their mother hasn't attacked her yet, which would have happened already if she was town.

Explain how this logically follows. You seem to be suggesting that Haylen-scum would not be bussed/distanced from on Day 1. Given that you presuppose that she is lynchbait as town, i'd say the opposite should be true. Haylen-scum would get the stink bussed out of her in the early going to take the heat off later, assuming her partners weren't complete novices.

On the topic, i dont know why you feel confident to draw the conclusion she is "stable" and not "all over the place" when she hasnt said a bloody thing yet. And reading over your post again, i realise that your reasoning for suspecting Haylen actually has no substance whatsoever. So please, please, please, please, explain to me, why you feel that somebody you admit yourself is a pretty easy mislynch at the best of times, is deserving of your vote today?

In your first paragraph, you question his logic, you ask him questions, you get down into the details and try to figure out what he's thinking. I think you misunderstand his point about Haylen being voted, but that's an understandable mistake on your part. You then ask questions about what he's doing and how he came to the conclusion about Haylen's play.

You are questioning specific points of his analysis here; the meta, the "stable" stuff, trying to get him to explain in more detail and defend his argument against you here.

This post looks to me like you might be a townie trying to find out information.

On the other hand, this was Trip's vote on Incog:

For example, if I said something like "Haylen is obvscum" (which, I should add, she pretty much is)

I never got a scummy vibe from her so I've been looking into this. You're saying she's obviously scum because of the inconsistency you pointed out with another game? I kind of mentioned it earlier, but at first I had a feeling from your posts that you were trying to toss out ideas to see what would stick... and then you rolled dice for your decision. Also, Haylen's "bandwagon" on you at the beginning was obviously not serious, but you reacted it to as if it were. I really don't believe there is anything scummy in the inconsistency you are basing your case on... I only read town things from Haylen and your belief that she's obvscum surprises me. Or am I taking the definition of 'obvscum' too seriously?

Unvote, Vote: Incognito

[/quote]

Now that's a much weaker vote. He doesn't really ask Incog any questions, or really seem to think about the reasons Incog is attacking Haylen here at all. "You're trying to toss out ideas to see what will stick" is a terrible argument to make against someone early on day 1. He vaugly says that he dosn't think the inconsitancy in Haylen's meta isn't scummy, but dosn't say why he dosn't think it, and doesn't say why he thinks Incog is scummy for thinking so. Nothing in that post really sounds like a case; it's a series of disjointed thoughts, none of which really seem to be probing for information or making an argument that Incog's play is more likely scum then town.

And then when asked about his incog vote, his response becomes even worse:

Well, I was still going on my random vote and since you're now my #1 suspect why wouldn't I vote you? A quick review reveals it became the only vote on you at the time so it's not like it was too threatening. You seriously voted me for just being online when the PMs sent out, and you rolled dice for another vote... I don't see it being all that radical by comparison.

He's trying to downplay the importance of his vote. He's doing everything he can to imply that his vote on Incog is meaningless and shouldn't be worried about. That's not what you do when you actually think that you're voting for a scum; you try to pressure them, you try to get other people to agree with you. It looks like what Trip wants here is for everyone to just forget about his vote and ignore him.

So anyway, BM, what's with this whole consistency argument? Trip made a scummy vote for bad reasons, and then tried to downplay it's importance in a scummy way. You made a logical vote for completly different reasons. I don't at all get why you're trying to use that as an argument against me; i'm not saying "voting for incognito is a scumtell", I'm saying that that vote, specifically, was scummy as well.

And perhaps more importantly, why did you think this wasn't worth explaining in the first place?

I did explain why Trip's vote was scummy in the first place, I thought. I think this is the third time I'm explaining it.

At the time Incognito made his post, Haylen had not posted nearly enough to make any kind of macro-analytical (botch) judgement of her alignment. I think in assessing Haylen's actions, meta is a very weak indicator compared to simply comparing it to her personal life. I'm not likely to be engaging in any meta discussion of Haylen. But if you do intend to continue in meta discussions, please at least try and look like you aren't taking everything at face value.

(shrug) I'm not saying you should AGREE with it; Haylen's really not one of my top suspects right now anyway. I am saying that Incog is making sense, and seems to be playing in an aggressive and pro-town way.

[Yosarian2]

If you make comments without full explanation, my obvious disposition will be to assume you do not have an explanation or you don't wish to be rooted down to an opinion, both of which are anti-town. Your original post appeared inconsistent because you provided no comment on me whatsoever. In your supplementary post you clarified somewhat, but again didn't fully explain your thoughts on the brunt of my (fairly brief) reasoning.

(shrug) It wouldn't have occurred to me to compare him to you when I first made the post. He made a scummy vote, and then a scummier attempt to "soften" it, and when I ISO'd him his post quality all game was low, so I voted for him. I wasn't especially thinking about you at all at that point; your incog vote didn't strike me as scummy, nor did your other play so far this game.

You say i misunderstood Incognito's point about Haylen not being voted. How so?

Not really sure I should be answering this question rather then Incog, but:

...Plus there's the fact that everyone and their mother hasn't attacked her yet, which would have happened already if she was town.

...Haylen-scum would get the stink bussed out of her in the early going to take the heat off later, assuming her partners weren't complete novices.

It sounds like what Incog was saying was something like "Haylen always gets run really quickly as town, because of weird play on her part when she's town, but really doesn't gets lynched as scum because she doesn't do that." Silly, but probably has a grain of truth to it. Also I thought this was at least partly joking.

It sounded like you read that as him saying that if she was town the scum would be trying to lynch her, vs. the scum bussing her as scum, but I think that was a misunderstanding. Unless I'm misunderstanding one or both of you myself. (shrug)

[Yosarian2]

"You're trying to toss out ideas to see what will stick" is a terrible argument to make against someone early on day 1.

For reference, this is part of your criticism re: Trip's vote on Incog. In rereading the thread, the Trip portion quoted above reminded me of Pine's criticism of Incog in Post 111. Not a mirror image, but certainly within the same field of criticism.


With that in mind, would you agree or disagree that their criticisms of Incog are comparable? If they are comparable, do you find Pine's observation better than/worse than/equal to Trip's?

Trip's comment was terrible because throwing out stuff to see if something happens and to try and get the game moving is what a townie should be doing at the start of day 1; using that as a scumtell is just backwards. I don't think that's what Pine was saying. I don't really like Pine's attack there (it's vauge, and I don't see how Incog was "too eager to make a good impression" or whatever), but it's not scummy the way Trip's was.

In general, Pine feels town-ish to me. The biggest vibe I get from his posts, especally the whole camn debate, is the "townie pissed off that people are still questioning him on something he thinks is obvious" vibe, with a little "rightousness indignation" tossed in for good measure. I could be wrong, scum can fake that kind of thing, but I don't really think that's all that likely here.

[Yosarian2]

Well, I was still going on my random vote and since you're now my #1 suspect why wouldn't I vote you? A quick review reveals it became the only vote on you at the time so it's not like it was too threatening. You seriously voted me for just being online when the PMs sent out, and you rolled dice for another vote... I don't see it being all that radical by comparison.

He's trying to downplay the importance of his vote. He's doing everything he can to imply that his vote on Incog is meaningless and shouldn't be worried about. That's not what you do when you actually think that you're voting for a scum; you try to pressure them, you try to get other people to agree with you. It looks like what Trip wants here is for everyone to just forget about his vote and ignore him.

I'm not trying to downplay it at all. Incognito said he was surprised by my vote and I was pointing out how it compares to his votes... kinda saying the pot calling the kettle black or whatever. Oh, and it did bring attention to him... BM even voted for him. If you believe that I'm scum trying to stick a vote on someone hoping that everyone will forget about it, why would I put it on someone without any votes already on them and try to make a whole new case for them? Wouldn't that bring about MORE attention than if I were to put it on one of the bandwagons going on at the time? Much easier for a vote to get lost among others that way.

You first gave an excuse for your vote. ("Well, I was still going on my random vote and since you're now my #1 suspect why wouldn't I vote you?"). Then, you told him that your vote on him was not a threat to him. ("A quick review reveals it became the only vote on you at the time so it's not like it was too threatening.") You compared it to Incog's vote at the very start of day 1, and then to the vote where he rolled dice. ("You seriously voted me for just being online when the PMs sent out, and you rolled dice for another vote...") Finally, you said your vote wasn't "all that radical".

If you actually thought you were voting for scum, or if you were voting for pressure and trying to get a read on Incog's alignment, you wouldn't be making excuses for your vote, you wouldn't be trying to reduce the pressure on Incog by saying your vote "wasn't a threat to him", you wouldn't be comparing your vote to a start of day 1 not-quite-random vote. If you actually meant what you said, when he asked why you voted him, you would have said you were voting him because you thought he was scum, and here's why. You wouldn't feel like you needed excuses, and you would WANT him to feel threatened by your vote. You would want EVERYONE to take as much notice of your vote as you could, to get more people to comment on it. Instead, you did everything you could to make it sound like your vote was not a big deal, like your vote was only slightly better then a random vote, and like it was nonthreatening in general.

I believe the stuff he was throwing out, and the way he was doing it, was scummy. I explained it all in my voting post, and I know you don't agree with it

Why? Why are the early game attacks he made "scummy"? Isn't it better to vote for something like "was here and didn't post" rather then make a random vote? Sure, it's not a strong reason, but it's more helpful to the town to make a vote for a weak reason then to make a completly random vote, isn't it?

[Yosarian2]

So Yosarian, according to you, it isn't a reason to vote someone for being inconsistent, and placing the first vote of the game with meaning behind it, directly followed by a random decision openly declared for a second vote? I certainly find that at least a bit suspicious.

Inconstancy is a town tell.

Besides that; explain to me how it's scummy, how scum would benefit from playing like that. "I've got two suspects, and I suspect them so equally I'm going to flip a coin to decide who to vote" in the early stage of the game when everyone else still has on their random votes is weird, but it doesn't seem to have any obvious scum motivation I can see.

[Yosarian2]

PeregrineV; This is a horrible theory argument you're trying to make here. If you're trying to say "scum never bus on day 1", then you're wrong. If you're trying to say something else, I have no idea what that is.

Anyway, any chance you can drop the stupid theory debate and actually start scumhunting, pere?

[Yosarian2]

Interested to see what other people think of GC's latest post.

I think he devoted a pretty spectacular amount of time to a pretty thin case. I mean, he must have spent about an hour and a half trying to find all those links and typing that whole post up, and what his case boils down to is "BM joked, and then he didn't post for a few days, and then he posted a lot."

What his post most reminds me of is when I have a strong gut read on someone as scum, and then try to figure out why that is and try to communicate it to the rest of the town by pretty much taking every one of their posts apart. Honestly, I see that post coming more from GC town then from GC scum; if he was scum, GC is a strong enough player to be able to could fake a better case then that.

[Yosarian2]

On another note, Haylen makes some really good points about PeregrineV. The sitting on the fense with Camn, while the only positive thing PeV he had to say about Camn was the activity does look pretty scummy, and calling Haylen town while still voting for her is worse.

Vote:PeregrineV

[Yosarian2]

So, you actually going to respond to the reasons I suspect you, PeV, or are you going to just dismiss me as "agreeing with Haylen" and therefore somehow irrelevent?

Yes, I agree with specific points in Haylen's case. how about, rather then dismissing me, you respond to those points? If I am wrong and you are town, it's your job to convince me of that, ASAP.

[Yosarian2]

Gotta go to lunch, more fun when I get back.

If I'm hammered before then, I'm

Luigi Largo, Vanilla Townie

the smartest and toughest

Not to outguess the mod, but the one thing that bothers me a little about this claim is I really wouldn't expect Luigi to be a VT. A vig or SK or something seems like it'd be more approperate for the role; the most relevant feature of the character is that he, well, likes stabbing people and does so a lot. Flavor arguments are iffy at best, though, so i'm not going to read too much into that.

[Yosarian2]

The incognito votes are terrible. Battle Mage was pretty clearly trying to lynch him for much of day 1, and then when i defended Incognito, battle mage attacked me for THAT, clearly trying to undercut any attempt to defend Incog. No way that that was distancing; if Battle Mage was mafia, then Incognito pretty clearly is not.

Fugitive's incognito vote is especially scummy here, coming right after Incog voted for her. Plus, the person she replaced never said anything game relevant at all.

Vote:Fugitive

[Yosarian2]

Seriously, Yos? Fugi replaced someone WHO FLAKED. And you're using lack of content from the slot as evidence? Really fucking lame.

(shrug) mpr didn't post any content before he flaked, either.

If you have no information from a slot, and then that slot makes one post and it looks scummy, then the slot looks scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Not feeling the Pine-hate; I think he's likely town.

He's being pretty silly right now

but town.

Sadly, Haylen could possibly be town too based on interactions with BM,

but I want to see her finish that analysis.

camn

looks the shadiest to me

of the people who were on the PeregrineV-town wagon.

I've bolded the contradictory parts of your reads for you since you're not being intellectually honest (which is typically a scum trait). They're all lines that you could fall back on to change those reads if necessary. "Yeah, I called Pine town but he's so silly maybe I was wrong." "Yeah, Haylen might be town but her analysis might be bad and therefore scum." "camn looks the shadiest of those people, sure, but that doesn't make her shadier than the people off the wagon."

Understand now? Good.

I'll look around for more after work, if I can't find any I'll concede your point to a single fluke post.

ML, Fugitive, none of that is at all contradictory or lacking in "intellectual honesty". He called pine town, flat out. ("Silly" is not a scumtell.) He wants to hear Haylen finish her analysis, but thinks she could be town based on interactions with BM. And he looked at the wagon on PeV to see if he could find scum on it, since you usually have some scum on a wagon whenver a townie gets lynched, and came to the conclusion that camn is the scummiest looking person on the wagon.

All of that makes sense, and none of that is at all contradictory. You guys are really reaching here, especially since, as I already explained, there is no way that Incognito was scum with BM, considering the interactions yesterday.

[Yosarian2]

Anyone else think the attacking of Incog might have been bussing?

No, it doesn't fit.

When you're distancing, you want to make a lot of obvious sound and noise to create fake hostility between you and your buddy. You don't want to try to undermine a third person making a defense to your scumbuddy, because you don't actually want your buddy to get lynched, you just want it to look like he's not your buddy.

On another note, I agree with bvoigt that tripmywire makes sense as a buddy of Battle Mage.

unvote

Vote:Tripmywire

[Yosarian2]

Also.. BVOIT: I need to get in your head. Are you willing to dance?

Depending on tone of voice, that comment could either be a creepy threat from the Joker, or a somewhat unusual proposition.

(Alternate punchline: "He's actually pretty good at the mamba, but he needs to work on his tango.")

[Yosarian2]

Yos, are you taking into account that both Incog and BM are experienced scum players and would know what we would consider to be bussing/town interactions?

(shrug) It doesn't really matter. Scum tactics are tactics that work, that's why experienced players use them.

There's a big difference between "player X wants to be seen to visibly be attacking palyer Y" and "Player X wants to subtly get player Y lynched." This was pretty clearly the second.

Hmm...I'd say Yosarian2. The BM kill would make sense for him, and ISO #11 could be an overreaction of someone who needs to stay alive to win.

I don't think that was an overreaction at all. GC was acting really suspicious in his early attack on me; he really seemed to be trying to make me look bad while pretending that he wasn't, to the point of actually denying he was attacking me at one point while continuing to attack me, and then to attack me for defending myself. The whole thing was just really shifty. I don't see why me pointing out scummy behavior on the part of GC is an "overreaction".

[Yosarian2]

- BM created "a lot of obvious noise and sound to create fake hostility" (Yos own words). This comes in the form of bad arguments that are easily defeated.

- Yos was able to deftly respond to BM's "case" because that "case" was a really bad argument to make a lot of obvious noise and sound to create fake hostility.

So, your entire argument against me is that, when BM made what you call a "bad case" against Incognito, I said it was a bad case, and BM attacked me for it. That's it. And this despite the fact that you never bothered to say that BM's case against Incognito was a "bad case" AT THE TIME BM WAS MAKING IT. You were even VOTING him at the time, and yet you didn't bother to comment on the case he was making against Incognito, and yet now you're claiming it was a "bad argument that was easily defeated"?

If it was a bad argument that was easily defeated, and you really suspected BM yesterday, then why didn't *YOU* point out that BM's attack on Incog was bad? It's especially odd since you talked about so many other aspects of BM's play, but never actually called him on making a bad case on Incog, nor did you call him on his scummy vote for me that he made when I defended Incognito. If you mean what you're saying now, then that's a pretty glaring oddity of your play; when person A is trying to make a case against person B, and person B is making a bad, scummy case, then I'd expect person A to use that as part of their case against person B. Unless you wanted BM's attack on Incog to succeed, of course.

It doesn't cost you anything to call BM's case on Incognito bad now, GC. It would have given you a lot more town credit if you'd said something about it yesterday. Can you explain why you didn't, if you think it was 'obviously a bad case"?

[Yosarian2]

It doesn't cost you anything to call BM's case on Incognito bad now, GC. It would have given you a lot more town credit if you'd said something about it yesterday. Can you explain why you didn't, if you think it was 'obviously a bad case"?

At no point have I commented on BM's argument against Incog. Every reference to BM's argument that I have made has been made in reference to his 9-hour siege-and-retreat, shifting-goalpost suspicion against you. Your entire post here is based on (yet another) misconstruction of my posts.

My whole case against you is the "obvious noise and sound to create fake hostility" BM made in your direction.

"Yet another"? Seriously? You're still pissed at me calling you out on that stuff early day 1, huh?

Anyway, if that wasn't what you meant, then your post was even weaker. There wasn't "a lot of obvious noise" at all from BM; your idea to call that "distancing" is pretty absurdly thin. He attacked me briefly when I got in the way of the mislynch he was going for, then he backed off when I stood my ground. That would be pretty crappy distancing, and I don't get why you think that's any more likely to be distancing then anything else. Whole thing just looks like BM faking scumhunting in general if anything.

I really can't believe that this "BM briefly attacked Yos so they must be scum together" WIFOM logic is all you've got out of this game so far.

[Yosarian2]

- Glad to see you're still willing to admit that you focused on a pointless derail (attacking v. suspicion) - despite the fact that you're wrong - to gravitate the conversation away from the initial suspicion against you (providing empty postings).

It's not pointless at all. Your behavior there still appears to be a pretty major day 1 scumtell on your part, and the more you react with hostitility to me pointing that out, the more you try to pretend that "I'm wrong" when the post I'm talking about is right there in the thread for everyone to see, the worse you look.

- I can't believe you're criticizing me for using the one definite piece of fact (BM = scum) that really helps us figure out who are the remaining scum. Actually, I take that back. I

can

believe you're criticizing me for using BM's interaction as a basis to finding others suspicious. It's another suspicion tally to chalk up under your name. Your lobbed WIFOM accusation, thrown out as a loaded term to derail the general tactic of finding suspicion by studying BM's conduct, is another suspicion tally.

"suspicious tally" my ass. You know as well as I do that trying to read the way BM attacked me and then backed off is complete WIFOM. "A scum attacked person A, so person A must be scum because scum attack each other to make us think that they're town" is pretty much the definition of WIFOM.

[Yosarian2]

Eh. I could really see either ML or Camn being scum right now. Probably not scum together, but they both individually look pretty sketchy.

That being said, I still think we should be lynching Trip today, he's the most likely BM scum buddy in the game.

[Yosarian2]

We're not lynching Incognito today. He is so obviously town here it's ridiculous.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos - time to explain how BM was obv. trying to get Incog lynched, yeah?

Hmm? What do you mean?

First here:

Trip, Haylen is obvscum because she's pretty obviously making up stuff as she goes along. The meta thing was one piece of evidence, but if you read along with my post 14 you'll see me pointing out more of her making stuff up as she goes along too.

The other reason why I think Haylen is obvscum has to do with meta, which I don't expect you to know about -- Haylen tends to get much more emotional and all over the place as town but in this game she seems fairly stable, which is scummy for her. Plus there's the fact that everyone and their mother hasn't attacked her yet, which would have happened already if she was town.

Explain how this logically follows. You seem to be suggesting that Haylen-scum would not be bussed/distanced from on Day 1. Given that you presuppose that she is lynchbait as town, i'd say the opposite should be true. Haylen-scum would get the stink bussed out of her in the early going to take the heat off later, assuming her partners weren't complete novices.

On the topic, i dont know why you feel confident to draw the conclusion she is "stable" and not "all over the place" when she hasnt said a bloody thing yet. And reading over your post again, i realise that your reasoning for suspecting Haylen actually has no substance whatsoever. So please, please, please, please, explain to me, why you feel that somebody you admit yourself is a pretty easy mislynch at the best of times, is deserving of your vote today?

Oh my, i am looking forward to your reply!

@BM, it's tomorrow. Can you provide that reasoning now?

Yeah, two bits of bad news on that front. First is, it's still today. Second is, i dunno if you're gonna be around to ask me again tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Incognito

He continued to try to get people to vote incog:

@Battle- Today, right now, I would be against a lynching of me, Green Crayons, Incog, or Haylen. And your Incog vote doesn't make a lot sense. Can you provide further insight about your decision making process in that regard?

Against a lynch of Incog? How can you be against a lynch of Incog??

If you struggled with, what i felt was very very simple and coherent, reasoning for my Incog vote, i'll simplify it even more.

I am voting for Incognito because his Haylen-vote was contrived, the reasoning eminently fictitious.

@Bvoigt - Just random people i felt hadn't been adequately covered.

BM

When I defended Incog, and attacked TripMyWire for his attack on Incog, BM attacks me, and contines to attack Incog in the same post:

I suppose i'll offer a courtesy

FoS: Yosarian2

for inconsistency of argument. Why are you attacking Tripmywire for something (admittedly i hadnt noticed this) that i am equally guilty of? I'm not buying the point about Camn either. Sure, he isnt coming over as an inspired scumhunter, but Tripmywire certainly seems like a well-intentioned townie to me.

What i'd really like to see right now is some kind of direction. There's what, 2/3 votes on Haylen for reasons unjustified. I see Bvoigt just cast an inane vote for Peregrine.

I'd like to see Yos explain why Incognito's diabolical logic against Haylen is not scummy. Then explain why he has chosen to ignore me and focus his attack on Tripmywire. Finally, id like to see him give comment on Medicated Lain. A Day 1 Yos lynch isn't ideal, but dont think it's impossible.

I think we're lynching one of Incognito, Medicated Lain or Yosarian2 today. Now would be a good time to step up and plead a case either way on those 3 individuals.

BM

He then scaled it up to a full vote on me in his ISO post #21, while still attacking incognito even in the post where he voted me.

He didn't vote for Incog again, but he continued to attack him, in his ISO post #22 and #29.

BM really expended more energy trying to attack Incognito then he did anyone else.

[Yosarian2]

I'm really not feeling a pro town vibe from Incog - he never really was in any danger of being lynched during BM's push, and I'm calling it obv. distancing - thoughts?

If he was distancing, and Incog was in no danger, then why did he move his vote around? Why didn't he just keep his vote on Incog, if there was no risk in doing so?

It looks more like BM was hunting around for a good lynch target. First he went after PeregrineV, then moved on when that wagon stalled. He took a shot at trying to lynch Incognito, and met with too much resistance, so he unvoted, but kept attacking him to keep him open as a lynch for later. He attacked me, but that wasn't going to go anywhere, so he dropped it. Finally, he went back to PeregrineV for the lynch. It really looks like all day he was doing a series of probing attacks on various town people to see who he'd be able to get a lynch on, and who he could plant seeds on so he could go back to them later.

[Yosarian2]

Camn seems really iffy right now, and I don't get why she claimed "power role" with two votes if she didn't want to claim today. That being said, we could wait a day on her, see what happens overnight, and get a full claim from her tommorow if she's still alive.

Incog is still pretty much obvtown. ML seems better to me then she did earlier, she's not acting like I would expect her to act is she was scum. I don't really get the votes on Pine, either. GC is more borderline, but he gets some town credit for going after battle mage on day 1.

Yeah, I'm going to stay on the Trip wagon for now. Not only does he looked connected to BM on day 1, I'm having trouble believing he's town at this point by process of elimination if nothing else.

[Yosarian2]

Let's go on the Incog lynch. If he flips scum as expected, I'll be looking hard at Lain. Looks like chainsawing and advocating any counter-wagon that looks like it'll move. Town protecting Town would work more on clearing Incog than just diverting votes and attention.

Long couple of days at work. Bear with me.

Pine, we're not lynching incog today. He's town. Find a better wagon.

[Yosarian2]

(B)

BM also did that whole distancing thing with Yos. Here’s a follow up post explaining why it makes sense.

Don't you get what BM was actually doing there?

His entire goal in the posts where he attacked me for "being inconsistent" in the difference between my BM and my Trip reads was to manipulate me into explaining why he wasn't scummy (IE: into defending him). He was trying to create a fake connection between me and him, and to get me to call him town. And then when I did, he dropped it. It's the opposite of distancing. It was a pretty skillfull scum manipulation move; if you're scum, once you can force or trick someone into calling you town and explaining why they think you're town, they're much less likely to vote for you, and they look worse if you get lynched.

The other likely reasons for BM's attack there were to undermine Incog's defense and, I strongly suspect, as a chainsaw defense of Trip. Trip's attack on Incog wasn't really much like BM's attack at all, so why did BM jump in to say "Why are you attacking Trip and not me for that?" It really looks like an attempt on BM's part to derail the trip wagon. (I also think it would appeal to BM's sense of irony to attack me for being "inconsistant" for attacking one scum on a town wagon while ignoring another.)

All in all, it was really a brilliant play on BM's part. Of course, it would be a terrible play on his part if he was trying to distance from me, like you keep claiming he was, but that clearly wasn't his motive.

(7) The remainder of Yos’ posts is defending Incog, defending himself against me, and several multi-day gaps in posting (one of which was, to be fair, July 4th weekend). Oh! And there’s a suggestion that Trip should be lynched as the most likely BM partner. But you guess it! No reasoning as to why this is the case.

I've gave reasoning over and over again on that. BM did a mega chainsaw defense of Trip as soon as Trip was attacked. Not only have i already said this, other people have as well. Now I think you're the one who dosn't seem to be reading the thread.

(D)

Yos is Incog’s champion and white knight. Yos engages in blatant partnering with Incog that is spread out over the course of the game so not to be obvious. I think this has rubbed off on Incog because he has repeatedly said that Yos is town, and has taken issue with my suspicions of Yos in the past, but never has clearly articulated why (or when he did with my distancing argument he failed to respond to my clarification). FYI, Incog: you said yourself that you’ve been duped by partners in the past, and here (unlike bvoigt) Yos isn’t being “blatant” in terms of repeated vote-following.

Incog is pretty clearly town here. I've played with him many, many times, including hundreds of games in-person at three different scum meets, and I have a good read on his meta. This is Incog town. This is how Incog town plays. I don't care if you think that's "buddying"; I am not going to sit back and let people lynch my strongest town read in the game for weak reasons. There's been a strong push from many people, including one confirmed scum, to go after Incog all game, and the reasons for it are and have always been crap.

[Yosarian2]

Deadline is tomorrow - I'm actually pretty emotionally comfortable with either of the current leading lynches./quote]

No.

Incog is pretty clearly town here. I've played with him many, many times, including hundreds of games in-person at three different scum meets, and I have a good read on his meta. This is Incog town. This is how Incog town plays.

Lynching Incognito is not an acceptable option, period. If anyone at all, for any reason, moves over and votes Incognito now, 24 hours before the deadline, I swear to God I will get you lynched tomorrow, come hell or high water.

[Yosarian2]

(3) In defending Incog, Yos conjures up this serving of congealed scumminess plucked from the lush fields of scumdom: “Inconstancy [GC note: “inconsistency”] is a town tell.” Uh… no. Inconsistency is a scum tell. It’s how you catch scum in lies. Oh yeah – he also used “inconsistency” (because it’s suspicious, see?) as one of his reasons to vote Pere. Hey, that’s inconsistent in and of itself! I think we may have entered into the meta-zone.

One of his reasons for voting Peregrine was "calling Haylen town while still voting for her." To me, this is an accusation of inconsistency with reads...a vote on a town read. But, like you said, Yos believes that inconsistency is a town tell. I feel like he may have been trying to push the mislynch of PereV with poor reasoning.

Not THAT kind of inconstancy, silly.

If someone is voting for someone and defending them at the same time, or attacking someone and defending them at the same time, or anything like that, it can be a significant scumtell. Scum know that the person they are attacking is town, and on some level they often admit it. More then that, scum know that if they get the person actually lynched they'll look bad, so they try to plant weasel words, to have it both ways. Scum rarely totally commit to an attack on someone they know is town, it's risky. It's similar to what I was attacking GC for on day 1.

The kind of inconsistency that I think is a town tell is different. If someone is attacking person A on day 1, but not attacking them on day 2; or if someone calls out person A for lurking but dosn't go after person B who's lurking just as bad; or calls something a scum tell in one situation but ignores it in another situation, or is opposed to a mass claim on day 2 but in favor of it on day 3, ect, people often attack them for "inconsistency". But I've found that that's not a reliable scum tell at all; in fact, it's usually a town tell. There's always a thousand little differences between person A and person B, and a townie who's actually scumhunting isn't just paying attention to the one scumtell, they're looking at behavior, meta, gut, all kinds of things. Or they change their mind about something as they get new information, or as the situation in the game changes. So they seem "inconsistant". Scum, on the other hand, tend to be very consistant; they're not relying on gut, they're not reading way to much into the exact way words are parsed or whatever to try to tell the difference between scum and dumb lurking townies, they're usually relying more heavily on simple, easy to understand arguments to make cases against people, and they usually carefully re-read their old posts to make sure they stay consistant, to make sure they're not doing anything they could be called out for. Townies generally don't care, they just do what seems right, and usually end up looking inconstant.

[Yosarian2]

Less then 6 hours to deadline now.

[Yosarian2]

Ugh, that was horrible. Why didn't anyone hammer? Pine and ML especally really need to explain themselves.

Anyway,

Vote:Trip

. I can't imagine that there wouldn't have been a lynch if he was town.

On an unrelated note, I am going to be V/LA for the next week, from tommorow through the 31st.

[Yosarian2]

Quick V/LA post

\
I don't hammer people when I'm convinced another person is scum. Hence my lack of hammer yesterday

Dosn't matter, Haylen; the fact that we no-lynched today was incredibly bad for the town. Now we're going to lynch Trip today most likely, and we gain nothing except a dead townie from no-lynching yesterday. You choosing to not hammer was an anti-town decision.

[Yosarian2]

Checking in real quick:

VOTE: Incognito

So everyone is voting me just because of BM's actions and PoE, right?

Not just that. I also thought you were suspicious even back on day 1, because even then I thought you were voting incog for a bad, scummy reason.

But yes, the link to BM is a big part of it.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, back from V/LA.

Perhaps so, Yos, but if I had voted Trip yesterday and hadn't been killed during the night, I would have been attacked for participating in a lynch that I don't believe in. Which could have potentially lost the town 3 townies if Trip isn't scum.

That's terrible reasoning, Haylen. If you're town, and you have a choice, then take the the pro-town option and be prepared to explain the next day why it was the pro-town thing to do in that situation if you get attacked for it.

Between "lynching someone you're not sure is scum" and "allowing a no-lynch to happen", lynching is the pro-town choice, no-lynching is the pro-scum choice. You made the pro-scum choice. Why? Because you didn't want to look bad? That's a scummy reason for making a scummy choice.

[Yosarian2]

I don't mind if someone refuses to claim; there are times that's the pro-town thing to do. However, that does mean that that we have to judge Camn's alignment based strictly on her posts. And this:

Yosarian OR Incognito.
Pine OR haylen.

is a scummy post.

[Yosarian2]

Well.. lets ask him.

Yos

: convince me. What is so TOWN about Incog this game?
He is usually a beacon of towniness.. but I am not seeing it. Enlighten?

Ok, let's go back to the beginning of the game. A lot of people attacked him for things that are actually town tells. The whole "hey, let me flip a coin to see who I'm goign to vote for" when he had two very early game suspects was not a scum tell at all; i can't imagine Incog doing that as scum, can you? It dosn't make any sense as a scum play, only as a townie having fun and trying to get reactions.

The way he questioned you about the whole "mass claim" thing, doing fairly extensive meta-research and quoting what you've said in other games, felt very town. From the way he went about it, it's pretty clear that his goal was to put pressure on you and get you to explain yourself; the town motive there was fairly obvious. On the other hand, if he was scum and you were town, I'd have expected him to either buddy up to you or try to get you lynched directly, not pick a fight with you and Haylen at the same time.

Based on BM's behavior, I think it's extremely unlikely that BM and Incognito were scum together. I already explained this before, but not only was BM attacking Incognito, he was trying to prevent other people from defending Incognito. If he was distancing from a buddy, he wouldn't have done it like that.

In general, if you look at Incog's posts throughout the game, it all looks like honest scumhunting to me. I can understand how it dosn't feel like that to you, since a lot of it has been directed AT you, heh, but he's generally been pretty aggressive and straightforward.

When Incognito is scum, there's a certain thing he does where he talks like he's thinking things through and he sounds reasonable, but his votes don't quite match what he's saying. He gets town v town fights going, and then subtly encourages them. It's subtle, but once you know what you're looking for, it's recognizable. He's not playing like that this game at all.

[Yosarian2]

@ Incog, and Yos, regarding my lack of a claim. I was thinking about this.. and I wanted to ask you both: do you really think I would be caught without a rock-solid fake claim as scum? You both know my penchant for planning.... so is this the argument that you are making? That I am withholding because I lack a decent fake?

(shrug)

Normally, I'd consider you refusing to claim to probably be a town-tell, if anything. This is kind of a weird situation, though. Tell me; did the fact that last time we played together and we were both town, that I refused to claim in the same way, influence your decision to not claim here? It's kind of a coincidence, and part of me is wondering if you might have done it expecting a positive reaction from me.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos - what are your thoughts here, I'm strongly conflicted by the whole camn interaction with the TMW wagon.

TMW looks uber bad, and his brilliant defense to me pointing it out is to say "oh" and as far as that goes it's par for the course as he looked functionally scummy yesterday. But camn is clearly suddenly getting religion on that point, and after all the headbanging from yesterday the sudden shift feels non-natural. I don't have your meta experience with her, but she really looks to be flopping around in an unhappy way. Her appeal to you for the claim thing makes sense and felt townish to me, the way she claimed initially did not feel townish to me in any way, and now the sudden flash of insight on Trip just feels canned.

I think we need to lynch Trip, and do so today. I would like to have you spell out some specific thoughts about camn prior to going into night as I'd like to have them from you on the table in case you end up deadified.

Camn could go either way. It really wouldn't surprise me if she flipped town here.

I don't think her unvoting Incognito is a scum tell. I don't know, I guess I just wouldn't be surprised to see someone finding my argument convincing, heh (especially someone with a lot of meta experience with Incog). In any case, if she was scum, I really don't see her dropping the suspicion against Incog quite like that; if she's scum, she would really want to lynch Incog either today or tomorrow, since she's in the top 3 suspects (top 3 suspects right now are probably trip, camn, incog).

Meh. She might be town. She is tricksy, though.

[Yosarian2]

What do you mean she is tricksy?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tricksy

trick·sy (trks)
adj. trick·si·er, trick·si·est
1. Smartly attired; dapper.
2. Sportive; mischievous.
3. Crafty; cunning; devious.
4. Likely to cause trouble and therefore requiring special care or skilled, delicate treatment.

Some combination of definition 3 and 4.