Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[ReaperCharlie]

As per MoS' post against personal attacks, this is my last post until RC is lynched. See you guys tomorrow.

Lol. What a gigantic cop out.


I'll be continuing my re-read soon. Prepare for (more) glory.

[Ranmaru]

So Batt, do you have any reads?

[Battousai]

Sensfan 1501- No. In fact I expected you to glance at it, call it scummy, and ask for my head on a pike. Seriously, no matter what I could say, you would vote RC. If I said (before RC claimed VT) we were a cop and that xxx was guilty, you'd vote RC instead of giving the slot a day to prove (hell, you might even fake counterclaim).

Brian 1504- We didn't contribute because "we" were in quite a few games, working, and another game had priority since it had the BaM ruleset. We have contributed to the discussion, more now that I got a second brain (by the way, prodding at you like I've been is contributing). And of course I've been "covering our ass". It's a big ass with 4 cheeks. It needs all the covering it can get. Especially when some players keep throwing BS cases at it.

Yes, I expect you to go after those players you find scummy. Your case on RC is just that he is active lurking. When I ask you to tell me why that is scummier than someone who parks a vote on Surye with an invalid reason, and continues to pust just enough to hide in plain sight, you tell me that it's ridiculous. Fuck that. You are voting RC because he is easy. Plain and simple. He's here, in your face, and doesn't require much effort.

And it's not hard to make you look like crap when you post crap. If we get mislynched or vigged tonight, I am making damn sure that everyone notices what crap your case has been.


What is this that I'm not giving reads? Let me make it a bit clearer then

TF is scum
Furcolow is probable scum
Death Note more likely scum than town
Brian more likely scum than town (though this has been brought up recently)
Kison is more likely scum than town (though this has been brought up recently)

Normally I don't give town reads, but I'll throw out a couple for the record:
ABR
Ranmaru

I'd vote for TF right now if I had access to the hydra.

Concerning the possible Sensfan lynch: No. I think there is more chance that DN is scum than Sensfan, and I would support that. Sensfan has been playing more like tunneling town (helped by the fact I find furcolow scum)



Also, the more I look at the reason for the votes, it seems this is on the same level as the vezok wagon. It's not exactly a policy lynch, but RC and vezok were playing anti town (posting nothing/actively lurking, and claiming extremely early/playing to survive). The problem with this is that 1) Yes it isn't beneficial to town, but more importantly 2) Isn't beneficial for scum (hammering an inevitable lynch with no reason, VERY actively posting with no content (hell, shoving it in town's face). At least he is trying to make steps towards posting content (finally making reads, getting a hydra, etc.

[Zindaras]

I love the irony in the air here.

What, the part about how Albert was going to vig Zindy-scum but now he's going to vig obv-town people instead? You could call that ironic, I guess.

Nah, only Alanis Morissette could see that as ironic. No, the true irony is that after all the bad reasoning I called ABR out for, with you defending for him, now you're getting the same treatment and you're not liking it one bit. Quite frankly, if ABR started threatening SensFan as well, I would probably just laugh and replace out, because it couldn't get any funnier after that.

Yosarian analysis:

What I dislike about Yossy's play is his early game single-mindedness on Vezok. He blows up the VT thing to epic proportions, then drops it like a brick and doesn't really get back to it on any later occasion (despite the fact that we had, I think, four claimed vanillas already, between Vezok, Surye, Furc and Reaper). As I mentioned before, I felt his shift onto Medicated Lain was a peculiar one. After agreeing with SensFan on the TF case, which was fairly expansive, he winds up voting Lain over one post. Possible link to TF there, but that's for post-mortem analysis on either. He explained his move to some satisfaction after I asked him, but it still put me off. I think the Lain case is poor. I personally dislike his end-of-day posting. He mentions not liking the Furc-wagon, but he doesn't say a thing about Surye. He was V/LA in the weekend of the D1 Lynch, but Surye was a very significant wagon and he's not really saying anything about it. Going back in his ISO, I asked him what he felt about Surye before and he said null, and he later mentions he'd rather lynch Surye than Furc because Surye could be scum while he feels Furc is town.

Day 2 starts with this post, which both Cessy and I criticised him for:

Surye (13) - (Internet Stranger, Zindaras, vezokpiraka, Kison, Cogito Ergo Sum, HezLucky, Furcolow, AGar, DeathNote, Kublai Khan, Primate, LlamaFluff, ReaperCharlie)

Just for the sake of argument,

I'm going to assume there were at least some scum actively pushing this wagon

, from a reasonably early point.

It looks more malicious, though, if you go back and read his previous thoughts on Surye:

Yos: could you please tell me what you think of Surye, AGar, Albert and Brian?

[snip]

I'm kind of null on Surye at the moment.

The wagon against him feels town driven

, but I'm not really convinced by it. He could go either way.

Apparently, he's changed his mind from that earlier point.

I like his agreement with me on the LlamaFluff mystery PM issue, though I guess that's mostly theory. Then we get a mostly meaningless exchange about Kison with me, in which he does manage to explain his ideas a bit better. I don't really like retroactive explanation of moves, but it's okay. Post #67 is a good post, one of the few meaningful posts he made about Kison.

Post 71 is the first time Yossy even mentions RC or the RC-slot. At that point, the vote count looks like this:

Toon Fighter (6) - (LlamaFluff, Cogito Ergo Sum, Kublai Khan, Albert B. Rampage, Ranmaru, Kison)

ReaperCharlie (5) - (BrianMcQueso, SensFan, Porochaz, Internet Stranger, Furcolow)
Albert B. Rampage (3) - (Zindaras, Medicated Lain, Toon Fighter)
SensFan (2) - (ReaperCharlie, HezLucky)
Ranmaru (2) - (AGar, Primate)
Porochaz (1) - (MrBuddyLee)
Kison (1) - (Yosarian2)
HezLucky (1) - (Furcolow)

The RC-wagon was very serious throughout the day. He doesn't really discuss TF until later either, but he mentioned TF a couple of times on Day One and his read is consistent with that. What I do wonder, however, is why Yossy picks Reapy over Toony.

Not liking Yossy's defense of Albert in my earlier discussion with him. Reeked of making excuses for him. Undecided if it's a townie with a heavy town-read on someone or just defending a buddy or even a scummy townie for the brownie points.

:eyebrow:

If you don't agree with my logic, you could say so. It's really disturbing you apparently can't disagree with my logic, or else I'm sure you would have, but you want to attack for making the point anyway.

You were attacking him with weak arguments for an action that has fairly obvious pro-town motives. And when I point that out, all you can say is I'm "making excuses for him"?

Picking this out because I didn't respond to it. I disagree with your logic. You say he's fishing for reactions, but you also agree that it's not illogical to think his vote on Lainy was scummy. Making that vote and then finding the people that call you out on it suspicious does not make sense. If I made the same votes as he had to fish for reactions, I would find the people who joined me on the wagons far scummier than the people who'd call me out on it. As far as making excuses goes, I'm saying that because Albert never bothered to defend himself. The "fishing for reactions" thing is something you put on him as an outsider. I never put a label of "scummy" or "towny" on it.

Let me just answer this question as well because I agree with Lainy: MBL gives me the creeps. Read him. He mostly just asks stuff and gives some small inputs, but he avoids giving any actual opinion on both the Vezok and the Furcy wagons. He also nicely avoids the Surye wagon and everything related to it.

MMm. That's an interesting point; be interested to hear MBL's response to that.

I'd like to know what you think of the response and MBL in general.

Overall feeling: there's a bunch of stuff really off about Yossy. I especially dislike the interaction with TF. TF's a pretty major suspect for Yossy during Day 1 and 2, and then he pretty much votes RC out of nowhere (argument would be weakened if TF is Town, which obvobv we don't know right now). I dislike the switch from "Surye's wagon feels town-driven" to "Surye's wagon was driven by scum". I like some of the discussions I've had with him myself. Interaction yesterday was good, no OMGUS, inclined to give him plus points for the Albert interaction today. Dislike his recent posting, but that could be his emotions. "4 decent scumreads a couple of pages ago"? Between IS (Yossy's town read), me (felt like town at the start of the day, hasn't really commented otherwise) and Lain (sure, scum), I can see one. End conclusion: leaning to scummy, but not guaranteed per se.

Will have to go read some more people in isolation tomorrow (real time, not game time), but it's all difficult for me right now. I'm going to try to do both Toony and Reaper/Battousai tomorrow so that I can make up my mind on which wagon to vote. Right now, I expect to put my vote on TF tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Unvote, vote: DeathNote

[Ranmaru]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

Err, why did you wait so late in the Day phase? This isn't some gambit to derail the RC wagon, is it?

Not once have you voted him earlier in the Day.

Btw, if RC is lynched, would you feel satisfied with DK being vigged? Or would you rather it be the other way around? (seeing as we have 4 irl days now)

I mean, not to disbelieve your claim everytime you do so lol, but I'm trying to compare it to your past game as a cop.

Vote AGar

Stuff still bugs me, I will dig up the case on him later. Nothing else to report.

That was right when Day started.

Here you claim the guilty/track late in the phase.

Btw, who did you track? (What body, if you can out that info)

[DeathNote]

He claimed this late because he knows it is the easiest way to get me lynched, he could care less if I am scum or not at this point. Llama in most of my games, does not like me to make it very far.

[Yosarian2]

Nah, only Alanis Morissette could see that as ironic. No, the true irony is that after all the bad reasoning I called ABR out for, with you defending for him, now you're getting the same treatment and you're not liking it one bit.

(shrug)

First ABR said he was going to vig you. I didn't defend you, because I think there's a reasonable chance you're scum; you have to be pretty sure someone is town to take the risk of defending him, and I don't have that kind of confidence about you at this point. I don't actually think that Albert's attacks against you were bad reasoning at all.

Then ABR said he was going to vig IS, and I don't at all get why. I did defend IS, because I'm convinced IS is town based on his behavior.

Then Albert started talking about vigging me, apparently because he didn't like that I disagreed with him about IS or some BS like that, so I flipped out and called him an idiot.

I'm not sure what's ironic about any of that.

What I dislike about Yossy's play is his early game single-mindedness on Vezok. He blows up the VT thing to epic proportions, then drops it like a brick and doesn't really get back to it on any later occasion (despite the fact that we had, I think, four claimed vanillas already, between Vezok, Surye, Furc and Reaper).

(shrug)The fact that RC claimed vanilla is certainly yet another reason he should be lynched, albiet a much less important part then his behavior and posting.

Also, during the period when I was voting Vezok for the vanilla claim, really not much else had happened at all. Vez was the best lynch based on what we knew at the time, which wasn't much.

As I mentioned before, I felt his shift onto Medicated Lain was a peculiar one. After agreeing with SensFan on the TF case, which was fairly expansive, he winds up voting Lain over one post.

"Over one post"? That's not at all true. That wasn't even the first time that I attacked Lain this game.

Day 2 starts with this post, which both Cessy and I criticised him for:

Just for the sake of argument,

I'm going to assume there were at least some scum actively pushing this wagon

, from a reasonably early point.

It looks more malicious, though, if you go back and read his previous thoughts on Surye:

Yos: could you please tell me what you think of Surye, AGar, Albert and Brian?

[snip]

I'm kind of null on Surye at the moment.

The wagon against him feels town driven

, but I'm not really convinced by it. He could go either way.

Apparently, he's changed his mind from that earlier point.

?

When I said the wagon is "town driven", I was saying that the main push on the wagon (which, at the time, was mostly being made by IS) was probably coming from someone pro-town. I still think IS is pro-town. That being said, it's incredibly rare for a townie to get lynched without some scum supporting the wagon; not necessarily the people who start the wagon, but they likely have thrown their support behind it at some point (basically the same logic as in the ancient Jeep "third vote on the wagon is scum" tell.)

And, yes, of course Suyve flipping town affected how I thought about the wagon.

But again, I'm tried of arguing irrelevant theory points with you. What's important here is my actual analysis of people's play, especially Kison's play, CES's play, and RC's play (and, to a lesser extent, your play); their participation in a mislynch are a part of the reason they look scummy, but only a small part.

Picking this out because I didn't respond to it. I disagree with your logic. You say he's fishing for reactions, but you also agree that it's not illogical to think his vote on Lainy was scummy. Making that vote and then finding the people that call you out on it suspicious does not make sense. If I made the same votes as he had to fish for reactions, I would find the people who joined me on the wagons far scummier than the people who'd call me out on it. As far as making excuses goes, I'm saying that because Albert never bothered to defend himself. The "fishing for reactions" thing is something you put on him as an outsider. I never put a label of "scummy" or "towny" on it.

(shrug) "Fishing for reactions" isn't nearly as simple as "whoever votes for me is scum"; it's usually more like "let's see who flips out when I vote ML, and then look back at that reactions once we know ML's alignment."

In any case, I stand by my attack on you there. Albert's actions seemed obviously to be pro-town motivated actions, there is zero reason for a scum to act like that at all. It's quite obvious he wasn't actually trying to lynch ML there. I don't care if you like Albert's play or not, I was just pointing out that it didn't make any sense as scum play. You then ignored all that reasoning completly, never really responding to it, and just called me scummy for defending him. That makes it look to me like you were just trying to mislynch Albert, and separate Albert from his defenders, and didn't actually want to get into a detailed discussion about his behavior.

Overall feeling: there's a bunch of stuff really off about Yossy. I especially dislike the interaction with TF. TF's a pretty major suspect for Yossy during Day 1 and 2, and then he pretty much votes RC out of nowhere (argument would be weakened if TF is Town, which obvobv we don't know right now).

(shrug) I was giving RC a reasonable amount of time to catch up and post something useful; he didn't take advantage of it. All in all, he's really likely to be scum.

As for TF, he's scummy, and I'm perfectly willing to lynch him based on his behavior. I've said so any number of times, and I dislike that you seem to be attacking me for having multiple suspects and not being able to vote for all of them at once.

[Yosarian2]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

...

Seriously?

I mean, ok, I'm inclined to just believe you and go along with this, but i find it kind of bizzare that you're claiming like this, especally after all that wierd "amnesiac cop told me Kison is a CR" stuff early in the day.

[Ranmaru]

@Llama: Oops, I confused Track with watch. Better question:

Why did you track Deathnote yesterday nite? Why haven't you even pressured DK at all to get reactions and such?

[Ranmaru]

Deathnote, when was the last time Llama has addressed you, or even spoken ABOUT you?

[DeathNote]

His first vote in this game was on me.

[BrianMcQueso]

Battousai, I'll address your post later. I have to go beat Portal 2 and bake a pizza and other stuff. We've got plenty of time before deadline, so don't worry. But when I do respond, it will be GLORIOUS.

PREPARE FOR GLORY

[/glory]

[BrianMcQueso]

Just kidding But you wouldn't have let me get away with a stunt like that, would you?

If we get mislynched or vigged tonight, I am making damn sure that everyone notices what crap your case has been.

Scum are concerned with not getting lynched. Town are concerned with finding scum. These are the basic fundamental motivations of the two sides in a game of mafia. You are obsessed with me, and only because of my case against you. (And SensFan, but for the same).

Brian 1504- We didn't contribute because "we" were in quite a few games, working, and another game had priority since it had the BaM ruleset.

If you don't have time to post in a game, then you don't post in a game. It's really that simple. If RC's activity was scarce, because of real life issues, I'd understand. But if someone does post in game,

quite frequently

, and they state over and over that they don't have time to post in the game, or plan on posting later, and all in all post nothing else of relevance? Then they are lying about not having time for the game, don't wish to make their opinions known, and are scummy.

-> Do you not understand that train of thinking, or do you disagree with it?

You are voting RC because he is easy. Plain and simple. He's here, in your face, and doesn't require much effort.

That is a pathetic argument. Look at how much crap I've had to go through addressing your points. If I wanted an easy lynch, I would've abandoned my RC case years ago and hopped on this ToonFighter case or whatever other bandwagon was active at the time.

What is this that I'm not giving reads?

I'm mostly referring to ReaperCharlie. The fact that you and him are a hydra together is infuriating to me. The way you play (Battousai), despite your craplogic at times, is overall more towards town than scum. ReaperCharlie's play is textbook scum behavior. You are two vastly different players with vastly different playstyles, but yet I have to treat you as though you're the same? It just doesn't feel fair. It makes me want to go get a hydra buddy of my own that plays nothing like me so I can disregard things people say against me.

Also, you did not properly address my question about the Surye-hammer:

If Surye would have been lynched anyway, then why did RC hammer regardless? If there was no reason behind RC's vote, then there wouldn't have been a vote. It was placed for a reason, and I think it's reasonable to ask what that reason was.

If RC did not vote Surye, it is likely that Surye would have died anyway. So RC's vote was to make sure that particular lynch happened. Why is that? Your response:

If Surye would have been lynched? It's safe to say that in 4 hours, the wagon wouldn't have switched to furcolow and you know it. Yes you can ask for the reason, but you've already made up your mind.

...skirts the issue entirely. You say "The wagon wouldn't have switched to furcolow and you know it." I understand Furcolow wasn't going to be lynched. But that has nothing to do with

why did ReaperCharlie vote for Surye?

[Ranmaru]

Brian, what do you think of Llama's recent claim?

[BrianMcQueso]

I have a guilty/track/etc on DeathNote.

...wut.

1) Seriously?
2) Why are you revealing this now, so close to deadline?
3) Or why not later, after more investigations?
4) Does this information claim come with a role name?

[BrianMcQueso]

Brian, what do you think of Llama's recent claim?

If LF is serious about this, then we test the cop. I'd like a little more information, though. (see last post)

[Ranmaru]

I agree.

[Ranmaru]

Mod: Please prod Nobody Special

[Ranmaru]

ML, Sensfan, I want your thoughts on this too.

[Ranmaru]

Hez, you too.

[BrianMcQueso]

Personally I would like everyone in the town to give their opinion on this tracker claim

[Ranmaru]

Haha yes same, it's just I was calling out people viewing.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote: DeathNote