Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[Amrun]

LLamarble, get a hold of yourself. I never said I agreed with all of Sevei's arguments. I said I think Sevei is town. I do not understand this leap of logic.

I also have no control over Klazam. He was kind of flaking, obviously, and selectively posted some things I screamed the loudest about. I guess he didn't agree about my read on you.

[mith]

Can someone read my 759 and DH's 762 and either confirm that he's floundering scum talking nonsense or otherwise explain how his reply (particularly the last line) is in any way grounded in reality or the context of what we were talking about? I'm getting pretty bored with arguing with him, and don't understand why he isn't dead yet.

Llamarble, I want answers to the questions I asked in 722 - in particular, why you think Amrun is scum with anyone but DH.

(Freudian slip in 773 when he calls the Sevei wagon not good?)

[DemonHybrid]

Can someone read my 759 and DH's 762 and either confirm that he's floundering scum talking nonsense or otherwise explain how his reply (particularly the last line) is in any way grounded in reality or the context of what we were talking about? I'm getting pretty bored with arguing with him, and don't understand why he isn't dead yet.

Llamarble, I want answers to the questions I asked in 722 - in particular, why you think Amrun is scum with anyone but DH.

(Freudian slip in 773 when he calls the Sevei wagon not good?)

1. Continue to ignore meanings behind words.
2. Call me scum.
3. ??????????
4. Profit!

You don't "notice" Chris' scummy behavior. You glorify it by saying "Even IF he did this" and "Even IF he did that", completely dodging any implications of guilty behavior.

Oh, here. I have your reply all typed out here, just for your convenience, seeing as how you're a busy guy:

DemonHybrid: Jesus, that post 777 is scummy. Why aren't you dead yet? That couldn't even begin to be more scummy. Obviously, I was right in the first place and you're scum. Why aren't you dead?

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, and Amrun:

WTF?

Olinea BOLDED the god damn DETONATE, twice! Is that not enough proof? What was his answer as to why he did it? A joke? Really? And people are out there defending him? WHY?

He should be hanged already. This reeks of scum. Furcolow is right, how do we know his partner didnt shut down Furcolow votes on any of the scum the night before? Makes it pretty damn convenient for Olinea, doesnt it?

Olinea would have been safe had he just came out and said "I though Chesskid was scummy, so I blew him up". But Olinea cant use that line because he came out of the gate swinging and ready to play mad bomber right away.

I still want to know why Olinea would post a bolded detonate twice. TWICE!

This is pretty much a slam dunk for me, his actions are anti-town regardless of his excuses and blatant lies. DemonHybrid is right, Olinea is a straight up liar.

unvote: Xalxe
FOS:Xalxe

Vote: Olinea

One of IS's FoS's. FoS with an unvote.

Who came up with the first observation of the detonator?
Who are all the people that said the word detonate before Cooldog/Chesskid got blown up?

I dont understand why no one else cares about this.

Also, whats up with Ender? Is he just trying to ride off wagon for a reason?

FOS: Ender

By the way Tajo, I already unvoted Olinea. Although, I still think something fishy is going on. Wasnt Olinea the one that claims to have submitted both the lovers and detonator roles?

Just an FoS.

Oh and I forgot to mention Plum. Looking at her lovering role, what exactly does that role do for the town? I sense more scum uses than town ones. I would have just voted for her, but im thinking she is going to be investigation bait anyways.

FOS: PLUM

Another FoS, as an aftersight.

first I want everyone to answer this few questions:
a) did you read my gambit on Olinea? (the full description of the Gambit can be found in this post.)
b) what do you think on the result?
c) if you think it makes Olinea scummy, why aren't you voting yet?

We should probably be a little more willing to lynch Oli than other players, particularly when LYLO approaches. Same goes for any role that's better for scum than town. Lylo is a very long way off, and one way another Oli may die or have an obvious alignment before then. I'm definitely not saying Oli should be lynched at this stage.

if you state we should be more willing to lynch Oli later, why shouldn't that apply to now?
I actually don't like how you constantly repeat how scummy Oli reacted to my gambit but then always find reasons not to vote him.
Possible buddy here.

FoS: Fishy

Tasky

I disconcur with your Olinea views and stance on massclaim.

how about telling me WHERE my case on Oli is wrong instead of just telling me you don't agree?

Tasky's Question:

Why do you sound like you want people to vote for you?

is this some kind of joke or what?

FoS: Xalxe

(this is actually for the whole post, this, etc.)


@StrangerCoug: shouldn't you be pushing my lynch much harder than you pushed on Tajo's considering it is based on "LynchAllLiars" and considering I pulled a gambit in which I lied? I could see plenty of reasons for ignoring me if you were Oli's scumpartner.

FoS: SC

@Sevei, how likely do you think Olinea is scum (considering the incredibly scummy reactions to my gambit). do you think Xalxe/Oli is a viable scumteam?

@Interned Stranger: Where do you draw the line between not giving scum information and giving town the information they need to make a viable lynch? This is related to reads only.


_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

If Olineas original response wasn't enough to make me convinced he is scum, then those definitely are:

Is not strong reasoning, and

appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.

I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out

-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.

contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information.
btw, false PR-information are quite rare, and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.

I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an

extremely

vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an

"Oh, you found me out? You die now"

kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.

scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.


_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_

d) why aren't you voting Olinea now?

PS: I will only tolerate the following two actions at this point:
i) vote Olinea.
ii) adress the points in my case you believe are wrong.

I will consider everyone who ignores my post a likely scumbuddy of Olinea's

Tasky's FoSes. All in the same post. All in different paragraphs with differentiating reasons.

Whoever is scum chose to be, so:
Why did each of you choose this game / why should I believe you're town?
Who are your teammates?

I picked this game because I like the "pulling tells off mafia lovers" concept and I'm not power-hungry.
I'm town because I like it significantly more than being scum; I'm a scientist and my enjoyment of mafia is the fun of reading people / solving a unique type of puzzle.
I like the 'convincing other people to lynch who you want them to' aspect as well, though I guess that applies to both alignments.

I'm with Conspiracy, SSBF, and Animorph.

FoS

:
Sotty, DGB, & Equinox for having strong scumgames. And Chris B for being possibly an alt to mask a strong scumgame.
Equinox utterly hosed a town I was part of and the other 2 have scummies for proficiency at evil.

Llamarble's FoSes in this game. Not only is this near RVS reasoning with bad reasons for FoSes (and therefore, could be just Llamarble pushing for information), they're all in the same line for 2 reasons (Chris B was a special case. Sotty, DGB and Equinox were all for the same meta reasoning).

[Amrun]

But why are Tasky's FoSes scummy and Llamarble's not?

[InflatablePie]

Amrun wagon's been the same for a while, so I'll move my vote to be more useful. Since my only other choices are mith and Sotty...

Unvote, Vote: DH

Gonna go on my V/LA now. *waves*

[Llamarble]

LLamarble, get a hold of yourself. I never said I agreed with all of Sevei's arguments. I said I think Sevei is town. I do not understand this leap of logic.

You specifically said your townread was in large part based on you agreeing with Sevei's post BEFORE she made it:

(Marble doesn't talk about [DGB], either--but I bet he will now.)

Sevei

I'll quickread DGB now and then be off for most of the day.

DGB makes a lot of sense to me overall. I like her readslist, her Sociopath case, and her Equinox townread.
Quickread is as town, but I'll deepanalyze later.

Marble, you make no mention of anything I said about you or DGB in 217, yet you feel the need to announce you are now going to look at DGB out of the blue? Why DGB at that point specifically? Because aside from my comments, there doesn't seem to be any reason for you to have done that at that particular point in time.

This post of Sevei gave Sevei MAJOR townpoints for me, since this is something I had noticed and given Llamarble scumpoints for before Sevei actually posted it.

His analysis of the wagon on him today also keeps me at a fairly solid town read on him. The wagon on Sevei is absolute shit.

This means you agreed with some of 'You didn't defend my points from 217' (false) or 'you're scum for reading DGB after I pointed out you hadn't read her enough without specifically mentioning my post' (retarded). Before Sevei's post was made. Buying an insensible argument is meh. Claiming you had the same bizarre illogical thought before she did to assign her townpoints is not something I buy from town.

I also have no control over Klazam. He was kind of flaking, obviously, and selectively posted some things I screamed the loudest about. I guess he didn't agree about my read on you.

If I was your top scumread as your list suggests, I don't see how the only thing Klazam says about me is 'seems meta focused; null.'

@Mith: Reading has been higher priority than working on the network, but I'll be getting back to that before day ends.
I think Amrun is most likely to be scum with one of Sevei, Chris B or Fluff considering those three were the counterwagon on me during the DGB wagon. I would not be stunned by Amrun + DH, or really most pairings containing Amrun other than Amrun + Mith.
If it's DH vs Mith vs Sotty my vote is going to end up on DH, but I don't want it to be that.
I mixed up Sotty's name with Sevei. Woo.

[Amrun]

I agreed with the latter, not the thing about 217. I don't see how discrediting my town read on Sevei by calling it "retarded" accomplishes anything pro-town.

[Llamarble]

I don't disagree with "I had same thought as X before X posted it -> townread on X;" This is logic I use all the time.
I am saying given Sevei's argument making no sense, I do not see town coming to the same conclusion before she did.
I have "say I agreed with something my scumbuddy said before they said it and give them a townread" in my scumbagotricks, so I think you did this but failed to evaluate whether it was actually possible for you to have had that thought before Sevei did.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm talking with my teammates and they're seeing a Sotty scum read, but I don't quite see the same thing they do.

Can someone condense the case on Sotty? I'm just seeing genuineness from her and I don't understand what people are seeing that's scummy.

[DemonHybrid]

But why are Tasky's FoSes scummy and Llamarble's not?

Tasky's is rather spread out and dealing with many different cases. Llamarble's more like a general RVS FoS for a few different people for the same thing. It just reads off as a townie thing to do.

[Thor665]

I'm talking with my teammates and they're seeing a Sotty scum read, but I don't quite see the same thing they do.

Can someone condense the case on Sotty? I'm just seeing genuineness from her and I don't understand what people are seeing that's scummy.

Have you asked your team this as well?
I just gave my Sotty bullet points a page or two back, and a case about five pages back.

[DemonHybrid]

One of them told me that I'm a derp for suspecting Chris and that Sotty is scummier. I'm waiting for them to get back to me with their case. Ill check yours out, but I'd like a few peoples' summarizations if they would.

[Sotty7]

Thor is being... I don't know what, but he has no case basically and it's gut.

Llama's case is that I bussed DGB

Chris' case was that I bussed DGB but he actually spent time linking me to DGB in other ways outside of my vote on her. He was wrong, but not as wrong as Thor and Fluff. I don't know why Amrun or mith suspect me. They have both been pretty vague about that. I think I am null/town to everyone else though.

Slow game is slow...

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah... back and forth some more

unvote
Vote mith

This game day needs to end soon due to deadline banking. Also im not insane, partners agree on my mith and amrun reads.

[Amrun]

I don't disagree with "I had same thought as X before X posted it -> townread on X;" This is logic I use all the time.
I am saying given Sevei's argument making no sense, I do not see town coming to the same conclusion before she did.
I have "say I agreed with something my scumbuddy said before they said it and give them a townread" in my scumbagotricks, so I think you did this but failed to evaluate whether it was actually possible for you to have had that thought before Sevei did.

Of course it was possible for me to have that thought before Sevei did, as that is what happened. You clearly have never understood what Sevei was saying to begin with, so arguing about it is like arguing with a brick wall as you refuse to understand or see anyone else's point of view - and also seem to think disagreeing with you is a scum tell, which it is not.

Sotty: I don't fully suspect you, so I won't give a case. It's mostly that my gut is less comfortable with you than it is with some other people. I could point out a couple of posts here and there that struck me the wrong way, but I won't since I don't want to lynch you today. If I were trying to get you lynched, I would have posted a case on you long before.

[Sotty7]

Fair enough Amrun.

And Fluff I'm starting to think you are just screwing with me now. Any explanation for the switch?

[Chris B]

Thor is being... I don't know what, but he has no case basically and it's gut.

Llama's case is that I bussed DGB

Chris' case was that I bussed DGB but he actually spent time linking me to DGB in other ways outside of my vote on her. He was wrong, but not as wrong as Thor and Fluff. I don't know why Amrun or mith suspect me. They have both been pretty vague about that. I think I am null/town to everyone else though.

Slow game is slow...

Sotty, that wasn't my case. My point was that your position on the vote didn't clear you, and that you may have bussed, not that I'm certain you bussed. I think the stronger point about you is that DGB tried so hard to clear you.

[LlamaFluff]

And Fluff I'm starting to think you are just screwing with me now. Any explanation for the switch?

No.

I just keep going back and forth between you and right now, I lean mith. This is all frustrating though since DH is the more inevitable lynch today and is getting stalled out for some reason.

[Equinox]

AAAAAAAHHHHHH!

DO YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO TWITCH ALL OVER? IT'S TERRIBLE! TERRIBLE, I TELL YOU!

I'm going to confess right here and right now that I'm losing it, and I haven't had the motivation to do any of the rereading, metagaming, or analyzing that I said I'd do because, when I look at this thread, I just want to roll over and die. Whatever the reason, I can't get myself moving, and I don't think I've ever felt so apathetic about a game before. What experience is telling me is that there's a reason for this demoralization and that I should be starting from that reason to look for the manipulative scum puppet master, but I've tried and didn't get anywhere due to aforementioned apathy. Isn't that awesome?

Maybe I'm more than a little miffed that we've gone from "Hey, guys, this would make a nice town bloc" to "LET'S BREAK THE TOWN IN HALF." Do I think there is scum involved in this? Yes. I just don't have any idea where that scum may be. I'm tempted to just wagon one of the mith and Sotty7 wagons, get a flip, and then move on with life, but the fact that we went from consensus to chaos in this amount of time bothers me a great deal.

I've caught up in the thread, and I don't even understand half the cases being pushed. I put quite a bit of stock in my early reads, and some recent experiences tell me that I should be doing that more. What that means is I will not be partaking in the mith or Sotty7 wagons. DemonHybrid is going on a steep uphill climb with his Chris B case and taking a lot of heat for it, and I feel that's counterproductive to scum; I won't be joining that, either. If you guys have something really damning on any of those 3, put it in one concise post. I refuse to slog through all of this again without a flip.

LlamaFluff switching back and forth between the mith and Sotty7 wagons on what appears to be whimsies is driving me insane. It's like he's purposefully trying to be unreadable. I've questioned him left and right to see if I could read him better, but I've come up with practically nothing in either direction. If I were to say what I think of him now, I'd say I have a "logic" null read of him, but my gut has been on fire, and I'd dayvig him right now if I had that option. Sevei would be second because she's gone and disappeared again, which really is fantastic.

tl;dr - Wagon and flip somebody already, please. Though I'll be a good little scumbag and keep my mitts off the current hot wagons because I want this flip above all else. If some of you back-and-forth arguers would shut up for a minute and make your case within one post without building a giant Jenga tower of quotes, I might look at it.

Vote: LlamaFluff

Screw you all.

[Thor665]

I don't agree with the LF vote, the Sotty town read, or the histrionics - but I approve of the message above.

[mith]

I was about to shoot off another snarky reply at DemonHybrid, but I realized that the inability to follow the thread of an argument is not, on its own, necessarily a scumtell - I only need to look back to the last game I played and the trainwreck that was Kmd to remind myself of that. I think there are more compelling reasons to think DemonHybrid is scum (summarized here), and this argument is just distracting from that.

Anyway, here's a summary of our Chris B discussion, as I see it; I'll try to keep the sarcasm to a minimum, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

DH 588/589 - DH calls me out for "a lack of hounding" of Chris B for his mere 15 posts, coming to the conclusion that "mith's notification of ChrisB's lurky and scummy behavior but unwillingness to explore that really shows a connection between the two."

Already, I'm unsure what he's referring to with the latter comment. I did point out that Chris B was V/LA, and noted that Chris B being off wagon + the "should I hammer?" post looked bad given the DGB flip, so maybe that's what he's talking about?

I wait for an answer to Equinox's questioning about Chris B's slip (which DemonHybrid tries to brush off as null - first as him possibly meaning "team talk", second has him being coached in what to say to look town), then am away for Saturday.

DH 650 - DH tries to make something of this absence.

mith 701 - I am understandably annoyed at the comment, particularly given the irony of being called out for not responding to something by DH, given his previous record in this game. I move on from that to explain why I haven't hounded Chris B:

a. I think he's town, and haven't had much reason to doubt that read throughout the game.
b. I don't hound people for their post count anyway, so long as they are posting regularly and with content.
c. Chris B hadn't posted from the start of day 2 to his "slip" post because of a stated V/LA, and the day talk stuff has further reinforced my town read.

DH 712 - Apparent annoyance at me responding to the original point of contention (and in doing so, I have "totally cleverly avoided talking about his play")... damned if I don't respond, damned if I do. Then a subtle shift from "Why isn't mith hounding Chris B for the lurky and scummy things he noted?" to "Why else is he town?".

mith 722 - I point out that while he may have already discussed it and recanted,

I

hadn't discussed it, and was doing so as promised. I then quote to where I have talked about his play and why I think he's town, before delving into DemonHybrid's case.

The conclusion here is: There are some things I don't like about Chris B, mainly related to the DGB flip, but his posts read as genuinely town and the day talk thing is unlikely to come from scum. I have him as town. DemonHybrid's case attempts to brush aside the "slip" as null, and his list of scumtells to me both because I don't think everything on that list is a scumtell (in fact, his characterization of "spread-out mini-wall posts" coming from Chris B as a sign that he needs time to put together fake cases is something of an ad hominem of Chris B's cases, sidestepping the need to actually analyze the content of the cases), and I don't think it has been established that he is doing the others.

DH 724 - This is the post which begins with "But you have nothing to say on the scummier parts of his play? You know, how his posting fits in more with active lurking? And how he avoided voting DGB?"... all of which I have talked about in the previous post.

He also invokes Sotty here: "Also, ask Sotty about how his cases lack substance. And his vote on me is just lulz-worthy." This is a really interesting comment, and one that got a bit lost in my utter disbelief at what he tries to do in his next post:

In the post where DemonHybrid first votes Chris B (628), he states "

In fact, with his weak pushing on Equinox, me

AND his fencesitting on DGB along with his lurkiness, I'm willing to vote him over mith" (emphasis mine). It is this first part which I ask about in 722: "and I'm not seeing where you've made much of an argument for him "making up cases with weak basis"... there's no elaboration on that point."

Rather than responding directly to that, by pointing out where Chris B's cases have been "weak", he makes yet another vague statement... now implying that his case on Sotty "[lacks] substance", but again with no elaboration.

DemonHybrid's attempt to enlist Sotty for his cause fails miserably, as Chris B quotes Sotty's own analysis of Chris B's vote for her. "He also has the best vote on me out of the three, case wise at least. I get the sense that he is trying and it feels genuine if off base." DemonHybrid tries to shift the semantics here, but while Sotty is clearly saying the case is "off base" (wrong), and one might even call a case "bad" if it's wrong alignment-wise, no possible reading of that post could come to the conclusion that Sotty thinks Chris B's case is "weak" or "[lacks] substance".

mith 759 - Here, I elaborate on my previous post, pointing out what he did in 724 (calling me out for having nothing to say about Chris B's play in the same post where he quotes and responds to me talking in some depth about Chris B's play).

DH 762 - His response to this is "Also, your tone was that of assumed Chris B confirmed town. Get real." Which apparently means I haven't

really

been talking about Chris B's play all along, or something? Yeah, I'm still confused.

---

tl;dr, for Equinox:

The argument between DemonHybrid and I over Chris B has shifted from "mith isn't hounding Chris B" (true, but understandable) to "mith is avoiding talking about Chris B's play, why is he town apart from this slip thing I want to stop talking about?" (false, and already answered) to "mith isn't talking about the stuff I say is scummy about Chris B" (patently false) to "mith is assuming Chris B is confirmed town" (not confirmed, no, but it's certainly a strong read). This might be a mild scumtell (harder to keep track of what you're arguing about if you don't believe in your side of it), but he could just be bad at this sort of thing. What I do find scummy out of all of it is:

a. His flinging of accusations that he doesn't even attempt to elaborate on (the claim that Chris B is making "weak" cases).
b. His hypocrisy in several areas, including point a (calling Chris B scum for making weak cases with no justification for that statement is, itself, a weak case) and the active lurking accusation (see DemonHybrid's play at the end of day 1).

As for why I think DemonHybrid-scum might have attacked Chris B: It could be as simple as thinking he had a case (and thinking he could nullify the slip as team talk). It could be a desire to manufacture town points (which is working to some degree - both you and Thor are leaning town on him because you don't see why he would do it as scum). I think he gave himself away on this by immediately invoking it as a defense.

I'm not opposed to a LlamaFluff wagon, but I'm not sure what the point is in placing a vote there at this point. We've got a soft deadline tomorrow, and two viable wagons. Make a choice.

[TheButtonmen]

D2VC13:

mith (3): Amrun, DH, LlamaFluff
DH (3): mith, Sotty, Chris, IP
Sotty (1): Thor
Amrun (1): Llamarble
Llamarble (1): Sevei
Llamafluff (1): Equinox


Not Voting:

With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Deadline with banked time is the 14th, deadline without using any banked time is the 9th.

[Sotty7]

Mod: Your last three vote counts have errors. The one above should have DH with four votes. Vote count 12 has me listed with 3 votes when I have only two. Vote count 11 has DH listed with 3 votes when he has 4 and me listed with 2 votes when I have one.

[Sotty7]

Sotty, that wasn't my case. My point was that your position on the vote didn't clear you, and that you may have bussed, not that I'm certain you bussed. I think the stronger point about you is that DGB tried so hard to clear you.

Yeah that's what I meant when I said you spent time linking to me to DGB outside my vote on her. I just didn't go into great detail, like with the others.

Equi, I feel your pain and I have been trying to drag this town to lynch the last couple of days but I'm getting little to no support. There are quite a lot of people stalling and it is making the whole game state drag which makes putting time in here a damn chore. I would love to wagon Fluff up with you right now, but I really don't think he has the support to lynch. If enough people come in and say they would switch votes, I will as well. However, I have worked hard to get DH up to only L-2 and I don't want to break down that wagon with out knowing for a fact we are going to push Fluff to at least L-1.

So I'm basically begging you here, either drum up support for Fluff quick, or join the DH wagon and finally get someone to L-1 here. Your only saving grace for DH at this point is that he is making a poor case on Chris B. Is that really enough to stop his lynch?

Mod: can we get a prod on Sevei please?