Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

It troubles me because it makes me wonder if Kison is actually your main suspect. There could be six people you find scummier elsewhere and you'd be ignoring them.

(shrug) Not really. I still think my day 1 arguments against ML are valid, but I've cooled a little on that one. I didn't really have any other strong suspects, so i decided to take a closer look at the wagon on the townie we lynched yesterday.

And I think Agar is likely town; the hardcore meta defense of Vez based on previous play with him is something I'd expect to see from a townie. His vote for Surye was a part of that over the top defense of Vez, and I don't have a problem with it.

AGar voted Surye not as part of the defense of Vez. He was voting Furc at the time, so he just switched from wagon to wagon.

Not quite. Agar voted Surye in his post #8, primarally because he didn't like the way Surye was attacking Vez.

Lololololololol.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge the possibility. I'm saying it's highly unlikely, and I'm more apt to pursue other avenues today. Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1 without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action) for me to consider his lynch today, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.

VOTE: Surye

Both of them are making very concentrated pushes on Vezok for the flimsiest of reasoning, and are ignoring pretty much everything else going on in the game. Oh wait, ABR took the time to attack someone attacking him for his bogus "win con" attack on Vezok.

I do call that part of his defense on Vez; he was sure Vez was town, and was attacking people for attacking Vez. That was why he votes Surye in the first place.

Later, he did move his vote to Furcolow, in response to Furcolow voting Vez.

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

^ This.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Furcolow

Furc needs to die.

He then later moved back to the Suyve wagon close to deadline. My impression is that he would have been happy with either a furcolow lynch or a suyve lynch, both because he didn't like the way they voted Vez.

All in all, Agar looks to me like a person who has one townie read he's absolutely positive of, who then bases everything else on that one read. It's not unusual for a pro-town person to do that. To be fair, that's also a kind of behavior a scum can fake, but all in all, Agar looks townish to me.

[

I don't really agree with you about Albert. The very aggressive "lynch vanilla claimers, lynch self voters, lynch people who make horrible anti-town plays, I don't even care what alignment they are they just have to die" stuff he was doing seems like something more likely to come from a pissed off townie then from a scum who was worried about long term survival.

That's not even the main point of the case. The problem wasn't that he went "lynch vanilla claimers", it's that he was okay with Vezok after he claimed vanilla town until the crappy wincon thing came up, then retroactively changed his argument for lynching Vezok twice and then proceeded to hop on every crappy wagon we got, for even crappier reasons.

What I find especially amusing, or sad, or hypocritical, or whatever way you put it, is that it's apparently totally okay for Albert to do completely idiotic anti-town crap because of his meta, but you were very eager to run Vezok up for it, with half the town showing you that his meta was to do stupid crap.

I actually don't think Albert's aggressive playstyle is anti-town; it was when he first started playing, but he's actually toned it down a great deal to a point where it's often more helpful then harmful. You wouldn't want to have many people in a game playing like that, but he can often shake some scum loose.

But, don't worry; if Albert had started out this game with a vanilla claim, I would have voted him as well.

Seriously; if, like you're suggesting, Albert had been scum who was actually trying to mislynch ML, why would he done it like that? All he would have had to say was "I'm voting ML because I agree with Yosarian2" and people would have been fine with that.

Let me just answer this question as well because I agree with Lainy: MBL gives me the creeps. Read him. He mostly just asks stuff and gives some small inputs, but he avoids giving any actual opinion on both the Vezok and the Furcy wagons. He also nicely avoids the Surye wagon and everything related to it.

MMm. That's an interesting point; be interested to hear MBL's response to that.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Mod

, VC PLEASE.

[MrBuddyLee]

Kison, you're way thin on suspicions. In fact, after reading your post history, I'm not sure I can peg a single current suspect of yours. If you're not careful, people might mistake that kind of behavior for actual Cult Recruiter behavior.

Porochaz, same applies to you.

GummyBear, same applies to you.

McQueso, Hez, IS, same applies to you.

If you guys were my scumpartners, I'd slit my wrists.

[AGar]

I notified MoS earlier today that I'll be replacing out. I may have cost myself my job last night, and I need to focus on actually getting my life straightened out rather than playing mafia right now.

-AGar

[Kison]

Vote: Primate

I forgot he was even in the game until I saw his post from last night.

His Day One On Surye:

- May 02, Iso #7: Approves of Surye's Vez stance.
- May 02, Iso #10: Has no read on Surye either way.
- May 09, Iso #11: After disappearing, says he has caught up. No mention of Surye.
- May 16, Iso #12: After disappearing again, he comes back and votes Surye. Clearly states he believes Surye is scum yet fails to explain why.
- May 21, Iso #16 & 17: Reiterates his vote and belief that Surye is scummy.

Primate:

Please explain why you believed Surye to be scum. What changed between May 2 (May 9?) and May 16th?

I also find your recent vote on Gummy Bear suspect. You have never once mentioned them and vote them without explanation. Clarify that vote.

[Zindaras]

@Zindaras: Point out one question I asked about vez or Surye that wasn't an honest attempt to figure out their alignment or the alignment of the players on their wagon.

I pointed out that scum were as likely, if not more likely, to be OFF the vezwagon yesterday, based on my read of a previous game vez did this in. Do you really find the way I stayed off the vezwagon (or Furc or Surye-wagons) scummy? While I drew attention to the fact, based on research, that scum were as likely or moreso to be off that vezwagon?

I was focused on ToonFighter, MedicatedLain and GummyBear yesterday while you were pushing the Surye-wagon. I believe you agreed with two of those pushes of mine. Please clarify if you really think I'm scum.

Allow me to explain myself better. You asked a lot of questions to people on the Vez and Furc wagons. I like that. My beef with you is that you never actually say "I think Vez is town" or "I think Vez is scum". You'll notice that in my big recap post, I mentioned a couple of people whose opinions I couldn't find. I noticed that this was the case with you on both wagons. Like you said, scum was likely to be image-conscious on the two wagons. But both the players actively attacking and actively defending them would be found scummy. So the best move, as scum, is just to not touch it at all. And your play fits in that strategy: your questions meant that you touched the wagons, but without actually ever providing your own opinion on them (also, I just reread your posts and noticed that you never provided any input on Surye either). That's what gives me the creeps.

Interestingly, Zindy, you're attacking Albert, who defended Surye stridently, because he didn't come up with with a strong enough alternate wagon. You're attacking me, who came up with good alternate cases, because I didn't say enough explicitly about Surye. Why is your focus on two players who were on the right side of the law yesterday, and for good if not perfect reasons?

Yossy asked me a direct question about people off the Surye and Furc wagon. So, obviously, I reply with my read on you. But you're not my main suspect. You're not my second suspect either. I'm not sure who is my second suspect either, but putting it in groups of (strong suspect; suspect; iffy; neutral; okay; good; town) you're in the iffy group.

He then later moved back to the Suyve wagon close to deadline. My impression is that he would have been happy with either a furcolow lynch or a suyve lynch, both because he didn't like the way they voted Vez.

But his vote should simply be on the guy he suspects the most, especially at that point. That's what I disliked the most about it, it's just not necessary.

I actually don't think Albert's aggressive playstyle is anti-town; it was when he first started playing, but he's actually toned it down a great deal to a point where it's often more helpful then harmful. You wouldn't want to have many people in a game playing like that, but he can often shake some scum loose.

But, don't worry; if Albert had started out this game with a vanilla claim, I would have voted him as well.

Seriously; if, like you're suggesting, Albert had been scum who was actually trying to mislynch ML, why would he done it like that? All he would have had to say was "I'm voting ML because I agree with Yosarian2" and people would have been fine with that.

Because, apparently, it's better to vote someone for having a duplicate avatar than to use any arguments, because most of the town is just plain ignoring it.

[Yosarian2]

Because, apparently, it's better to vote someone for having a duplicate avatar than to use any arguments, because most of the town is just plain ignoring it.

Meh. It was a quick vote to get reactions, and he pulled it off not long afterwards. If he had actually intended it as a serious vote that he was at all considering riding all the way to a lynch, he would have given a real reason; you don't get away with actually lynching someone with a vote like that, and he knows it.

I'm pretty sure he was never intending to allow his vote to help lynch ML, at least not unless she gave him a better reason to do so later. If he had, he would have gone about it differently.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

^scum

[HezLucky]

Not going to bother anymore with explaining slight differences in points. It will come down to "I like this person's
reads" and "this person isn't even trying" with the +1/-1's, so only going to point out interesting things.

Nevertheless, Llama looks like he is legitimately scumhunting from post #759. He has gone from scum down to a neutral
read. His list in that post was: ML, TF, maybe Surye, BMQ and CPE. DN possibly as a policy lynch. I don't agree with
all of it but a good part of that list is legit (ML/TF/CPE until he flipped, and Surye wasn't bad then)

GummyBear #762 - seems like a faux-attack on AGar, an attempt to paint him in a bad light. I don't like the fact that
GB is a hydra account and yet still manages to OMGUS. It seems more likely that the two heads of the hydra agreed that
they would attack AGar in that post, as opposed to it being any sort of legitimate response. (yes I am aware that
they posted separately, but it doesn't mean anything to me)

I also don't like their ML town read. And in retrospect, them finding Surye innocent (and he did pop up innocent!) is
almost as if they knew his alignment beforehand.

MBL post #764 is good, as it repeats the Gummy suspicion I just mentioned above.

GummyBear #767 - now the Gummy hydra votes Furcolow? I've already stated my displeasure for this wagon multiple times.
It seems like they aren't even trying.

Toon Fighter #795 - I'm sorry but I just don't like TF's constant pushing of the Furcolow wagon.

Zindaras #799 - I dislike any suspicion of Amrun here. And not because he flipped town. Though he changes tune later
on in the same post, which does make me comfortable. (Legitimate and expected response to a reread)
At the same time, he liked CPE. Given how much I didn't like CPE (Zindaras claims to "like" CPE's arguments) and given
that CPE has flipped town, once again seems like a case of "I like CPE because I know his alignment is different to
mine". Also, the town reads at the end of the post just don't make sense. Brian, IS and CPE as town? I have no doubt
Zindaras is reading the game based on that post, but real scumhunting is another story. *back up you go*

Amrun #801 - this post is noted ONLY because Amrun is dead and has flipped town. He feels MBL is making weak, passive
attacks towards him which I can definitely see the perspective of.

McQueso #805 - I would like to see McQueso push someone's lynch hard. The identity of that person, I feel, would give
us a lot of info regarding McQueso's alignment (I'm having a tough read here)

Yos #806-808 man this guy is SO TOWN

(FYI SensFan #818 - if Surye flipped scum, this would heavily implicate you)

BrianMcQueso #832 - you obviously have not read my posts. I have been heavily opposed to the Furc wagon all of
yesterday. I am in no way "lynchable" for changing my vote to Surye. Though I'm sure upon reread you found that out,
this still merits scumpoints on your part. (at least Zindaras #842 caught onto this - case on Agar is noted!)

Kublai Khan #850 - ABR voted for Furc AND vezok? But on the other hand, he hates vezok... Good post on Kison though.

though Kison #857 is good. Ugh. He's right on the consistency point thoguh. Didn't catch that.

Llama #885 seems like townie confusion. It's so weird I had him as scum early game.

I don't understand ReaperCharlie's hammer at all. Yes, he obviously looks very bad for not having caught up. But I'm
guilty of the same thing --- in every game I'm in -_-.


---DAY TWO ---

I like the ToonFighter votes to start the day. I don't like SensFan's vote of Llama anymore, as Llama seemed pretty
good toward the end of the da,y especially seeing as I read the end of Day 1 with the knowledge of flips.

Agree with everything that has been said about the Cult Recruiter bit. Much more likely to be scum, but if Kison is
scummy (and he is) I won't hesitate to lynch him.

What does everyone think of Kison #918, as he was the one that popped up as Cult Recruiter?

Toon Fighter #927 - okay the Kublai Khan vote makes NO SENSE. And he doesn't like Llama anymore? Llama's been town
since the second half of Day 1.

As mentioned earlier, SensFan really should've voted for TF's crap #927. He didn't. I'm happy with a lynch on either
one of these two.

Like Llama #947. This is making me uncomfortable, because I am aware that Llama is very good scum.

MBL #954 is playing the "white meta knight" - basically calling out other people on not giving explanations (in this
case, IS, in later posts, he calls out a whole slew of people including myself) -- I don't like how image oriented
that is.

I'm not saying the ReaperCharlie wagon is inherently bad, as he might be scum (I don't know because he WON'T POST
ANYTHING) but the people on that wagon have no busiuenss being on that wagon. SensFan as #2 and Porochaz as #3 reek
of scum. How can you guys not have better targets at this point in the game?

DeathNote is correct in #965.

MBL #966 -- GOOD POST. WOW. (-4)
Not only listed the problem I had with Porochaz but ADDED MORE STUFF TO IT. Amazing. Oh look, he uses the word
"image-oriented". That's why it was stuck in my head.

CES #972 is bad. He has not played this way in the few other games I've been in with him. It's not that he's making
cases, but who he's making cases on. Yosarian's post was not bad but CES tries to spin it in a poor light.

Furc #978 - based on #979, I am absolutely sure you aren't scum. As a respones to your #978, "skimming" is exactly
what I said I was doing in that post, so you aren't exactly breaking new ground. (As of this line, my strongest town
read is attacking me -- great -- AND his #980 is a good list too)

Zindaras #984 point #3 is excellent. And not just because it makes me look good =D. The Surye wagon needs to be
broken into parts before doing an analysis on it as it was originally in response to another town wagon.
(hmm my read on Zindaras is flipflopping like crazy ... Is Zindaras an eloquent player in meta? I need to take this
into account if he is.)

...but then he attacks Yos and Furc in the same post. WHAT THE HELL? (back up you go)

...Also, where did GummyBear go?

MBL #1053 - What? Is a suspect list not good enough? Please. This is the "meta white knight" (I'm sure you kids have
an actual name for it -- but it makes me sick)

Suspect List -
Toon Fighter - 63/100
SensFan - 61/100
Medicated Lain - 56/100
Zindaras - 56/100
Kison - 56/100
Porochaz - 56/100
GummyBear - 54/100
AlbertBRampage - 54/100
mozamis/CES - 53/100
BrianMcQueso - 52/100
ReaperCharlie - 52/100
Internet Stranger - 51/100
Everyone else - 50/100
Agar - 50/100
MBL - 49/100
DeathNote - 49/100
LlamaFluff - 48/100
Yosarian2 - 46/100
Primate - 46/100
Furcolow - 44/100


I want to vote either Toon Fighter or SensFan. TF has promised a post, and I am going to read it before deciding which.
Do I vote for the scummy-sounding scum, or the useless noscumhunting scum?

[Yosarian2]

^scum

Heh. Ok, CES is scum too. Damn, you're usually harder to read then this, CES.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

#1057 is just BSing about ABR's motives. Dude's an inscrutable fool.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I notice that you and Zindy are both from the Netherlands. Real life friends?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

No. Never met.

[SensFan]

Yo ABR, should I start ignoring anything that Hez posts because it's all useless IioA PbPA walls; because he keeps repeating over and over that I'm not scumhunting while contradicting himself; or because he literally just called me scummy for making a post that would look bad if a confirmedTown person were instead confirmedScum?
Or should I just go with d) All of the above?

[HezLucky]

^^^ Blatant misrepresentation of the point. You did not receive any points for the FYI. It was simply a thought that had crossed my mind.

You STILL have not done any scumhunting whatsoever. I would like to see where this contradiction of yours occurs.

[SensFan]

Don't worry. I'll rip your 'arguments' (read: fluff) to pieces first thing Monday morning.

[HezLucky]

Why not do it now? My main argument against you is that you post nothing but fluff, are actively lurking and seem to refuse to engage in any kind of scumhunting whatsoever, combined with your questionable votes.

The only way I could really see you "countering" my argument is by actual scumhunting, in which case I look forward to it.

[Yosarian2]

#1057 is just BSing about ABR's motives. Dude's an inscrutable fool.

ABR? Neah, he's not that hard to read, at least when he's playing like this.

Someone jumps onto a medium-sized bandwagon with a completely nonsense reason, and then gets off not long afterwords, the motives are pretty damn obvious. If you're trying to lynch someone, that's not how you go about it.

You should have been able to see that for yourself, you do reaction getting-bandwagony-votes yourself all the time. Zindy doesn't really play like that, so I'm not surprised by his reaction to ABR, but I am surprised by yours.

[SensFan]

Why not do it now? My main argument against you is that you post nothing but fluff, are actively lurking and seem to refuse to engage in any kind of scumhunting whatsoever, combined with your questionable votes.

The only way I could really see you "countering" my argument is by actual scumhunting, in which case I look forward to it.

If you bothered to read my posts at all - which, i know, is asking a lot of you - you'd know I'm on my phone right now.

Then again, if you read my posts, younprobably wouldn't make such baseless claims about me...

[ReaperCharlie]

Vote: SensFan

This is a serious vote.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ranmaru replaces GummyBear. Searching for a replacement for AGar.

[Ranmaru]

Confirm. I'm going to be making a pbpa because I feel that's the easiest way for me to get my thoughts over what has transpired over these 40 some pages as a replacement.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm going to not be reading your pbpa because I feel that's the easiest way for me to not care about the fact that a pbpa dealing with 40 pages is somehow a smart thing to do.

[Ranmaru]

Then what do you think is a better thing to do? (I

may

take it under consideration because i'm only on page 2 ;-; But another thing is I don't like to just start without really commenting on most that has happened)

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry, this game is getting a little away from me..

post later tonight.