Yosarian2 wrote:Zindaras wrote:
What I most disliked about your original post was that you so explicitly reduced the subset of players you were looking at. This troubles me.
I'm not sure why that troubles you. There's a lot of people in this game, it's really easy for scum to fly under the radar for days. The best way to prevent that is to try look at the game from a different point of view then the way everyone else is, to look at specific subsets of people and try to figure out where the scum are, to do different kinds of analysis and scumhunting then what everyone else happens to be doing. Focusing in on a certain subset that's almost certain to contain some scum and some town, and then doing process of elimination, is a good way to find a scum.
I don't have to find all the scum today; I'm perfectly happy just finding and lynching one scum today.
It troubles me because it makes me wonder if Kison is actually your main suspect. There could be six people you find scummier elsewhere and you'd be ignoring them.
And I think Agar is likely town; the hardcore meta defense of Vez based on previous play with him is something I'd expect to see from a townie. His vote for Surye was a part of that over the top defense of Vez, and I don't have a problem with it.
AGar voted Surye not as part of the defense of Vez. He was voting Furc at the time, so he just switched from wagon to wagon.
Let's assume for a moment here that Surye's wagon is scum-led and that all the people hopping on at the last moment were townies. Then, by reasoning, Furcolow's wagon must be scum-led as well. After all, these last six townies could have either voted Furcolow or Surye, both legit wagons. The people who tilted the scales are in this case not the early voters, but the late voters. Actually, that's not completely right either. All the people on the Surye-wagon helped tilt the scales together.
Honestly, my hunch is that all 3 wagons yesterday were on pro-town people, so that's not surprising. Especally if scum are hunting for power roles, it wouldn't surprise me at all if scum bandwagoned Furcolow to a claim and then went on to another wagon once he claimed vanilla. Who are you saying switched at a late date that you think looks scummy? Can you be a little more specific?
Like I said, I think AGar's jump was suspicious, and if Furc turns up scum somewhere later on (unlikely but possible), I'll be taking a really hard look at him. I would have to look closer at the last few votes and see if they were consistent with previously stated opinions.
Also, given your arguments here and in the cophunting argument, I would say the scummiest players are those that hopped on all the 'wagons. Town would latch onto one player they find scummy and go for that, while scum would be opportunistic and just hop onto any ol' wagon.
Vez wasn't going to get lynched for a long time.
Eh. He most likely got vigged, though, and fairly predictably so IMHO.
If he got vigged, then we have a bad vig. He was quite townish and he was hardly useless.
For example, while I agree with you that Kison is the scummiest person who jumped early on the Surye wagon, I do not think he is the scummiest player overall. That honour goes to Albert, for reasons I shall doublepost for.
I don't really agree with you about Albert. The very aggressive "lynch vanilla claimers, lynch self voters, lynch people who make horrible anti-town plays, I don't even care what alignment they are they just have to die" stuff he was doing seems like something more likely to come from a pissed off townie then from a scum who was worried about long term survival.
That's not even the main point of the case. The problem wasn't that he went "lynch vanilla claimers", it's that he was okay with Vezok after he claimed vanilla town until the crappy wincon thing came up, then retroactively changed his argument for lynching Vezok twice and then proceeded to hop on every crappy wagon we got, for even crappier reasons.
Yosarian2 wrote:
Albert B. Rampage wrote:I like ML, I dislike the avatar.
He voted for me, putting me under the pressure of lynch, yet saying that he didn't find me scummy.
How is this not the scummiest thing ever? A few days before deadline, a serious threat, and trying to play it off on a senseless idea about avatars.
Meh. I can understand why you'd think that was scummy. I'd be inclined to put it up to Albert's twisted sense of humor and his willing to take all kinds of crazy risks when town to get reactions. He normally will jump on bandwagons just to see what happens as town. I'd suspect he'd tend to be a little more careful as scum, but I'm not sure I have a good idea of what his scum meta is.
Anyway, I'm not especially interested in doing a detailed defense of Albert here. He doesn't have much of a wagon on him, and he can take care of himself. I was just responding to Zindy's post with my own thoughts.
Fishing for reactions, the catch-all defense of the scummy and the idiotic. "You counterclaimed the Cop!" "But I was just fishing for reactions" "Okididoki".
Albert's vote on Lain was stupid, senseless, and anti-town. There's no fishing for reactions there. There's no point. All the reaction you're going to get is "Albert, you're scum". Because that's what that move telegraphs to everyone.
What I find especially amusing, or sad, or hypocritical, or whatever way you put it, is that it's apparently totally okay for Albert to do completely idiotic anti-town crap because of his meta, but you were very eager to run Vezok up for it, with half the town showing you that his meta was to do stupid crap.
Sure, that can be true. So who do you think is scum who was avoiding bandwagons? I assume you're not talking about Albert here, since he was pretty bandwagon happy, often for fairly weak to nonexistent reasons.
Let me just answer this question as well because I agree with Lainy: MBL gives me the creeps. Read him. He mostly just asks stuff and gives some small inputs, but he avoids giving any actual opinion on both the Vezok and the Furcy wagons. He also nicely avoids the Surye wagon and everything related to it.
ShowFinished: 159 (120 Town, 33 Mafia, 5 Other, 1 Cult, 4 Cultivated)
68 Wins, 71 Losses
Town: 52 Wins, 54 Losses (2 Wins as Cult)
Mafia: 13 Wins, 15 Losses (1 Win as Cult)
Other: 3 Wins, 1 Loss (1 Win as Cult)
Cult: 0 Wins, 1 Loss
Cultivated: 4 Wins, 0 Losses
59 Survived, 31 Lynched, 60 Killed
