Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[ReaperCharlie]

P.S. You should all sheep me because I am excellent and sexy.

[LlamaFluff]

But seriously, a cult recruiter getting lynched D2 is amazing and worth the death of an amnesic cop if there is one. If you investigated a player and sent a result to me or anything like that, claim so we can lynch this person.

[Toon Fighter]

vote: Kublai Khan

He opportunistically jumped Surye's wagon yesterday and rode it till the end, contributing little on the way. He has 7 posts, only one of which has some content. In that post, he jumps Surye's wagon and attacks half of the living players. He hasn't done much scumhunting D1 (I know he was only in for a couple of days, but his posts barely have anything). Also, his replacee, bamboom, has only 2 posts, one in RVS and one commenting vez's situation. I can't see much more, for he was a lurker, but I hope KK comes out soon to join the discussion.

Also, I'm not liking Llamafluff's play. He is almost sure he was lied to, but still wants a possible cop to come out. I don't really see scum pulling a move like that [Llamma's] but I want to see where he is heading

[SensFan]

Toon, stop being an idiot. If a Cop comes out because of what LF says, then he's not being lied to. You can't combine both that he's rolefishing and that he's talking about something he thinks is a fake.

[Toon Fighter]

Either one or the other, I didn't say both were happening

[LlamaFluff]

Unvote
Vote GummyBear

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES: Can you explain why you went from the Furcolow wagon over to the Surve wagon, while at the same time attacking me for not being on the Furcolow wagon?

Town tell; inconsistent application of principles: you went after vezok hard for his VT claim, then went "meh, whatever" when Furcolow claimed VT.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

P.S. ®_©, shut up.

P.P.S.

Vote: ToonFighter

[Internet Stranger]

Why not just lynch LLamas target anyways? Then we can save the cop for later (if there is one)

[AGar]

Pure and shameless post to avoid being prodded about the day's start. Will read tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

Why not just lynch LLamas target anyways? Then we can save the cop for later (if there is one)

What if they are lying and the person who sent that was scum? We wouldn't know who sent it.

vote Internet Stranger

[BrianMcQueso]

I see no reason for the amensiac cop (if any) to claim. If we wanted to test Llama's information, we can just have him fullclaim it and lynch his target to test the information. Llama's information reveal has a number of possibilities:

a) Llama is telling the truth, there is amnesiac cop, and that cop nailed a cult leader.
b) Llama is telling the truth, but the information was from an anti-town role trying to trip him up.
c) Llama is lying.

Let's go into some setup balance, which is my favorite part of MafiaScum

In regards to (a), I'm skeptical of the presence of a cult because of the three nightkills. If you assume one vigilante, that makes two anti-town kills. Two anti-town groups

and

a cult? Nah, too imbalanced against the town. I could see a cult is if it was one anti-town kill and two vigilantes, which is unlikely, but possible.

In regards to (b), an anti-town role that allows them to send fake amnesiac cop results to players sounds very powerful. Such a power, if it existed, could allow that player to essentially dictate two lynches (in our example, one lynch on Llama's result, one lynch on Llama for "lying to the town") while remaining completely anonymous.

Unless there is a possibility I'm missing (admittedly possible), we either have a "two vigilantes, one scum group and a cult" setup; or Llama is lying.

[Internet Stranger]

Slow down there trigger finger. I'm not stupid, im well aware that it could be a lie. But would you rather take the chance on revealing a cop on day 2 or taking a shot at a god damn recruiter? I prefer keeping the cop hidden, what do we have to lose anyways? We don't have any leads right now. So either we lynch the name or we go after someone else, like Kison.

[Porochaz]

unvote

You are correct although it would have been better if you had said that to begin with. However what BMcQ says is relevant however I dont see a reason for Llama to lie here, what would be the point?

[BrianMcQueso]

The motivation for Llama to lie is low, considering it's Day 2. Still, if he is scum, he's given himself enough leeway to possibly talk the town out of his lynch on Day 3.

I'm mostly just having trouble believing this game has a cult. Sure it fits with the flavor of Agent Smith (and if I was designing a Matrix game, I'd go that route), but the three nightkills is something to be considered.

[Porochaz]

Yeah but its a risk. Llama to me isn't a risky player, he's aggressive like hell, but I can't see him pulling off a gambit like that. That said I agree with the cult route although site generally dictates that this is mentioned beforehand these days (at least from my perspective) but then MoS has been away for a while... 3 NK's is possible, and if there is say a SK+Vig as well then it might be whats making it balanced... gut says there isn't one though.

[Yosarian2]

In regards to (b), an anti-town role that allows them to send fake amnesiac cop results to players sounds very powerful. Such a power, if it existed, could allow that player to essentially dictate two lynches (in our example, one lynch on Llama's result, one lynch on Llama for "lying to the town") while remaining completely anonymous.

Meh. Not that powerful. The "messanger" role, or whatever it's called these days, basically lets you send an annonomous message to another player by first sending it to the mod and then the mod fowards it. It's a fairly weak role, for either alignment, because people tend to not take weird annonomous messages all that seriously, for good reason.

I doubt there's a cult recruiter. That being said, I also don't have any strong reason to think Llama is lying. He probably got that message. Even if he did, though, that dosn't actually tell us anything about Llama's alignment either.

The whole thing is probably just a giant red herring of some kind.

[Albert B. Rampage]

LlamaFluff makes sense. Unless the amnesiac cop steps forward, the information is worthless.

[HezLucky]

Also a shameless post to avoid prod -- will resume read soon.

Though offhand Toon Fighter's last post looks awful and SensFan looks just as bad for not calling him on it (despite being the very next post)

[HezLucky]

err I mean his #927, the vote for Kublai that came absolutely out of nowhere and amounts to a lurkerhunt.

The part I don't like is that SensFan commented on the part of his post that wasn't necessarily scummy.

[Kison]

I prefer keeping the cop hidden, what do we have to lose anyways? We don't have any leads right now. So either we lynch the name or we go after someone else, like Kison.

Given the result looks fake based on the description provided by LlamaFluff, following it blindly doesn't seem like a good idea.

So I suppose that means you'll have to go after me.

But I'm too adorbz to be going after.

[DeathNote]

I like bryans analysis which just makes me believe that nothing this "cop" says should be taken at face value. I am just going to continue assuming Llama is town and being messed with as i can not imagine him lying this early on with something that puts his life in jeopardy.

[LlamaFluff]

The whole thing is probably just a giant red herring of some kind.

Bingo, which is why I think we are basically done talking about it at this point. The Amnesic should consider the fact that there may be other cops/trackers/info roles etc in this game though, so claiming is not a bad thing here. The fact that they may not get as fortunate as to hit town again can be a factor here and the result can be skewed easily by any scum who gets the result.

Now to bring it up one last time (paranoia again) I can see the cult being somewhat limited to only being able to recruit programs and killing anyone else (hell I would have recruited vezok in a heartbeat which scares the crap out of me, especially with Amrun being a decent scum hit and CPE a good vig one). Still, not sure its worth it to persue.

At this point one other thing needs to be addressed, and that is the vauge win condition. Reminds me of recent mini Jurassic Park where the wincondition had nothing to do with eliminating dinos, which the flavor made it seem like it should. This was due to my role being a veg-dino and miller because of such, that ended up catching the SK in a fakeclaim.

Now, this one really doesnt say "kill all programs" which makes me think we have a miller (or human scum). Either way, I think the miller should claim, soon. We have an amnesic cop (maybe), I would assume we have another varient at least. With the large amount of kills, I like bringing that to the surface sooner or not.

Poro has my basic mindset there too, scum is all about not limiting yourself for future moves, basically keeping as many doors open as possible while hiding them all from the town. Escape routes win games.

Anywho

GB is the lynch for today, tomorrow we can discuss the amnesic thing more.

First we have GB entering into the game pushing pure policy on vezok while taking a scum stance on both AGar and Furc, this is compounded by there being no attacks on vezok past policy (ignored win-con thing). Still, we have GB pushing policy (on town) while still leaning into other possible mislynches who are being discussed (AGar is scum, Furc is scum, Surye can go either way). Not liking that post in the least.

When the win-con things is discussed, GB says its a towntell, and continues to push policy over everything else. Again, vezok is not ani, or CA, or Nat, or LLD... not a policy lynch. If the amnesic is real, all we had to do was wait for a town result, and vezok sheeps that player or the AC for the rest of the game and snap, town doublevoter.

Anyways, GB continues not to do any scumhunting, and instead just keep inching the VI players towards what are essentially policy lynches. At the same time they now are taking credibility snipes at AGar who is pushing them.

What really bugs me though, is that they seems to be posting from the mindset that the KNOW vezok is (was) town. All the points that are fearmongering are made from the stance that vezok IS town it seems.

TF wagon isnt horri-bad, but I get a few conflicting reads on him. Some of his posts seem too... i dunno... poorly thoughout to come from scum.

[ReaperCharlie]

Uggghhh falling victim to apathy/busyness/sleepiness.

Tomorrow is when it'll have to be, despite my (empty) promises.

>.<

[Zindaras]

Only the cop would know who it was.

LF says the PM said a specific player is the cult recruiter. I might be reading it wrong but I interpret that sentence as meaning that the PM included said specific person. Otherwise, it would make no sense for the whole "specific player" thing to be there.

It does, but unless the person who sent this claims to be a player who has absolutely no barring over who they target, if they live, I am fine. Also its about 90% false, I mean, town amnesic role cop who only gets the role name, but NOT character name, in a game where there is no role (ie Cult Recruiter) attached to the character?

Its false. Im saying this as much for the offchance that its true as that no one gets suckered by it in the future.

I trust the result even less (about 1% odds, in my opinion), but I just don't see why we wouldn't want it out there. We'd want it out there to ignore, but there's no real downside as long as we don't act upon it until we get some hard evidence. Also, if it

is

fake, then we know that the targeted person probably isn't part of the scumgroup which is trying to deceive us.

I see no reason for the amensiac cop (if any) to claim. If we wanted to test Llama's information, we can just have him fullclaim it and lynch his target to test the information. Llama's information reveal has a number of possibilities:

a) Llama is telling the truth, there is amnesiac cop, and that cop nailed a cult leader.
b) Llama is telling the truth, but the information was from an anti-town role trying to trip him up.
c) Llama is lying.

Let's go into some setup balance, which is my favorite part of MafiaScum

In regards to (a), I'm skeptical of the presence of a cult because of the three nightkills. If you assume one vigilante, that makes two anti-town kills. Two anti-town groups

and

a cult? Nah, too imbalanced against the town. I could see a cult is if it was one anti-town kill and two vigilantes, which is unlikely, but possible.

In regards to (b), an anti-town role that allows them to send fake amnesiac cop results to players sounds very powerful. Such a power, if it existed, could allow that player to essentially dictate two lynches (in our example, one lynch on Llama's result, one lynch on Llama for "lying to the town") while remaining completely anonymous.

Unless there is a possibility I'm missing (admittedly possible), we either have a "two vigilantes, one scum group and a cult" setup; or Llama is lying.

a) Mafia, SK, Vig or two Mafia, Vig are both quite realistic possibilities. As long as the scum teams are small enough, the danger of crosskills will balance the game back out.
b) This is a point I disagree with. All you need is a scum message-sender. I had that role in both Packrats Mafia and Artifacts Mafia. Beyond that, we'd never chainlynch based on this because it's not Llama's role or Llama's result.

The final dichotomy is just faulty. Llama may not be lying, he may simply have been fed false information. Three options, not two.