Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[Sotty7]

Okay, so I have spent some time catching up with the whole DH/Fluff/mith deal and I find myself siding with the latter two in the argument.

Post 55 is a big crux of why I am finding DH scummy. I realize this has talked about a lot recently by these three players, but I think DH was trying to appease LlamaFluff slightly with his “Equi could be scum” spiel. I don't buy his explanation of “anyone could be scum” it just feels like he put that statement in there to soften the blow of him attacking Llamafluff over meta. Even more so with his reaction when Llamafluff asks him wagon Equi with him. "What? No I don't think she's scum!"

The FOS followed by a vote on Llamafluff for “twisting” is pretty poorly reasoned and a stretch. I don't like it.

DH then gets into it with both Pie and Mith after this and pretty much does nothing with his Llamafluff vote. I'm reluctant to say he isn't scum hunting because the game has barely started, but that's exactly what it feels like. He's hiding away in his defense mode and not commenting on anything else, or if he does it is in passing.

His unvote is null. Town or scum would unvote there when the reasoning for the vote has been debunked as a mistake. I really want to see what his re-read reveals because I like him a lot as scum right now.

[Sotty7]

This thread needs more Thor.

Also reading Socio's case on DGB now. For reals.

[Sotty7]

Okay, interesting. I like that.

Lets get some pressure going here. Vote number 5

Vote: DGB

Bubblebubble

[InflatablePie]

Alliance of Awesome is go! Welcome aboard, Equi and Sotty!

[TheButtonmen]

D1VC6:

DGB (5): Socio, Thor, IP, Equinox, Sotty
Llamarble (3): LlamaFluff, Sevei, ChrisB
Socio (2): DGB, Klazam
DH (1): mith,
Sotty7 (1): Llamarble

Not Voting: DH

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.
DGB is V/LA from May 19-24.

[Thor665]

@Sotty - yeah, I know. I'm dropping the ball here and in [redacted] I blame other ongoing [redacted]s that were fluttering around deadline. I'll be catching up here and in [redacted] tomorrow as I just read the last page and a half, realized interesting things were being said, and yet managed to have my brain produce nothing but a fizzing noise.

@IP - Town read attack, ho!

Llamarble: It's a bit early for me to be looking at pairings, but I find it interesting that you asked a question which Thor665 was the first to answer, and you were able to find and provide better justification for his answer than for your own. Feels a bit staged somehow.

There's your question though.
Llamarble has a town read? I need to attack it and break it down in front of everyone, I also need to note how he was able to find better justification for his town read than his own defense because...y'know...that's scummy as hell...for BOTH of them, amirite?

That's a direct translation.

[InflatablePie]

That's a direct translation.

[mith]

DemonHybrid: "You keep saying that it has nothing to do with my read, yet you keep talking about it." - Bweh? I said that

finding you agreeing with an imaginary Equinox stance scummy

had nothing to do with your read on her; that's a separate issue from what you're responding to here (finding it odd that you didn't share your read sooner).

Whether you misread LlamaFluff's statement as a conditional or not is pretty irrelevant to my case; it's clear from context and the timing of the game that a statement of "Equinox and IP are scumbuddies" would have been based primarily on Equinox's play (since LlamaFluff was attacking and voting her), and would not be something LlamaFluff held as absolutely certain. (To be fair, I'm not sure I would find it all that less scumstastic if you were trying to push him from his stated vote to a L-1 even if he had presented perfectly symmetrical cases on the two of them. "You like this pairing, why don't you vote for the other half?" just resonates with me as a strong scumtell.)

---

I started rereading DGB with the feeling that this wagon is dodgy (and thus she's probably town), but now I'm not so sure:

1. I dismissed this part when reading SocioPath's case because it's not really a contradiction, but the whole "I can't tell the Llamas apart" thing seems like an act (178's "I hope I the right Llama [sic]" especially).

2. "Then why not vote Sociopath instead of Klazam? Klazam hangs a bit lower than Sociopath on the fruit tree." in the same post is exactly the sort of scummy nonsense that DH-scum is guilty of.

Sticking with DemonHybrid for now, but I'm starting to talk myself into DGB-scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Im starting to get a little flustered with reads here mostly due to how unreadable I always find DGB and SP, although part of my team at least thinks DGB is scum.

What I do think though is that DH is actually more likely then not town, despite some of his early things. Not a strong read, but a read nonetheless. Still like my vote enough to leave it for over my V/LA though, especially as most of my secondary picks are going "oh I think marble is scummy, BUT I will vote X"

[DemonHybrid]

Whether you misread LlamaFluff's statement as a conditional or not is pretty irrelevant to my case; it's clear from context and the timing of the game that a statement of "Equinox and IP are scumbuddies" would have been based primarily on Equinox's play (since LlamaFluff was attacking and voting her), and would not be something LlamaFluff held as absolutely certain. (To be fair, I'm not sure I would find it all that less scumstastic if you were trying to push him from his stated vote to a L-1 even if he had presented perfectly symmetrical cases on the two of them. "You like this pairing, why don't you vote for the other half?" just resonates with me as a strong scumtell.)

Not that this matters anymore, but voting for someone with 0 votes as opposed to voting for someone who has 4 or 5 votes already on them and stating that they're a scumteam. I don't know how many times I need to tell you that that just seemed weird to me.

Bweh? I said that finding you agreeing with an imaginary Equinox stance scummy had nothing to do with your read on her; that's a separate issue from what you're responding to here (finding it odd that you didn't share your read sooner).

So, two separate issues? I explained both of them. A few times now. You keep ignoring the motivation (Point #1: Agreeing with a stance that I thought was obvious and implied, but happened to misunderstanding. Equinox's RVS tell on IP was only slightly different than mine anyway; Her's was team meta, mine was preference meta. Point #2: I just didn't feel the need to state my read since it was implied.)

Now, if for point #1, my motivation was just to get out of RVS, you'll see me and everyone else grab onto whatever they can. I thought what Equinox implied was clear, so I used it to get out of RVS and it wasn't. Since then, our case reasonings have split and that was that. You're literally focusing on ONE end-of-RVS post, when everyone was grabbing onto whatever information they can to leave RVS. Surely you find the act of focusing on that just absurd, right?

For point #2, if both 1. I didn't find the need to state my read and 2. I felt that through my exchange with Llama and IP it was implied, then what's the big deal? Because you didn't read it properly to get my stance on Equinox and you felt like I answered your question about my read on Equinox with weird timing? You got your answer. I explained where I expressed that Equinox wasn't a scumread. I really don't know what else you want. I really didn't mean or even imply in the least that I thought Equinox was scum when I told Llama that "Equinox could be scum, but...", since Equinox was a major player in our back and forth and the only point that I wanted to stress with that statement is that Equinox isn't confirmed or obvious town to me to support my argument. That is all implied and it's not my fault that you didn't pick up on something like that. Again, it wasn't my intention to make it some sort of elaborate puzzle to figure out my read on Equinox, but it's really not that hard to deduce. I just didn't find it all that important to clearly state "OH BY THE WAY, I FIND EQUINOX TOWN." in big bold letters.

Anyway, I'm still reading. I'll have a big post tomorrow with reads on everyone and come back with a fresh mind.

[SocioPath]

I like mith's latest post.
Good times.

[Klazam]

I'm giving up on ever getting anything useful from sociopath. 

Let's try a different line of questioning. 

MITH: can you answer the following questions:

If DH flips scum, what does that make Equinox?
If DH is town, what does that make Equinox?

If equinox flips scum, what does that make DH?
If equinox is town, what does that make Dh?

What do you think DH's stance (or lack thereof) on equinox means?

[mith]

DemonHybrid: "You're literally focusing on ONE end-of-RVS post..." - Er, no, I'm not. I pointed it out as strange initially, and since then all I have said about it was clarification because you seem to keep misunderstanding what my issue was. I'm not sure why this has been so difficult for you to get (unless you're deliberately being obtuse), but now that you do get it I don't really have anything else to say about it... you say it was a misunderstanding of Equinox's case, I say "meh, I'm not sure I buy that".

To follow up on that point: You said you agreed that InflatablePie has a preference for being scum. What made you agree with that? (Obviously, IP has since confirmed it in thread, but what had he said or done prior to this game that led you to think that?)

Also: Who do you find scummy? Sotty is right, you've done very little scumhunting. I'd rather you ignore me grilling you for the moment and give us some reads - easier to catch your scumbuddies that way.

Klazam: I think the soft-defense/push toward IP points toward DH and Equinox being scum together; a DH flip would push Equinox a bit toward DH's alignment either way, and vice versa. However, I feel more strongly that DH and IP

aren't

scum together than that DH and Equinox are; DH's "Why aren't you voting IP?" could just have been him trying to push a fast mislynch on a townie, but it doesn't make sense for him to push LlamaFluff toward a scumbuddy sitting at L-2.

[Thor665]

@IP - you're certainly entitled to that opinion but considering the timing of the discussion...naaaah. I stand by that read.

I don't really like the Sotty or DH votes, can those wagons die please?

Putting DGB to L-1 yesterday would have been tech. Putting her on it today should at least get other people to comment on the wagon more, so it's at least partly tech.

[Thor665]

@mith - you really love you your scum pairings. How does DH flipping town in any way reflect on Equi's alignment exactly?

[mith]

It's not that a DH town flip reflects well on Equinox (aside from DH having a town read on Equinox); it's that the possible link between them makes Equinox a bit more likely to be scum given that DH's alignment is currently unknown. If DH were to flip town, it would remove that link as a possibility - it's just simple probability.

[Thor665]

You've indicated that you don't see the DGB wagon as dodgy. How does being the L-1 vote strike you, because you really need to start screaming a heck of a lot more if you want that DH one to go anywhere. I'm fine with either option, I like a good howling match as much as the next guy (unless the next guy is Socio or Fate) but would love to see you go with one of those options.

[Thor665]

Oh, and happy day of womb escapage Shotty...this thread needs more Shotty

[Klazam]

All right. The buzz in my hive(My teammates, if its not being obvious) is telling me to look @ DGB.

I'm looking and i'm finding DGB very unreadable.

Am i correct in assuming that the main case on DGB is mainly about how DGB cannot say Sociopath is town? What else? If you all could clarify this, it would be awesome.

[Llamarble]

The votes for me are badly reasoned.
Thor is scum though. Yeah he has townpref meta, but he's certainly not _bad_ at scum.
"I'll scum this game since I'm good at it, I haven't been scum in awhile, and I get bonus wifom" makes sense.
I noticed other stuff including excessive eagerness to lock in lynch wagons, lack of casemaking and terseness,
but I have to go so I'll properly make my case later.
VOTE: Thor

[Thor665]

Though i consider my skills reading DGB to be roughly akin to my skills reading braille, my team of birdies all generally agree that DGB 1. doesn't care for town games and 2. would have been more...DGBish (derpy? I dunno) if she had been town. Since I can't read the silly bint anyway, she's a solid A1 lynch in my opinion.

@Llama - terseness as a scumtell...yeah, I'll look forward to the actual case.

[SocioPath]

Lets go back for some funs.
DGB is scum, we already know this much.
But we have to ask ourselves...what does this mean?
WELL FOLKS. LEMME TELL YOU.
First, Klazam's posts are all wonderfully independently scummy on their own, but then the massive chainsaw for absent DGB warms my heart.
But we aren't here for him, he is small time.

ITS TIME TO GO FOR THE CHAMP.
This time, ITS ALL ABOUT...mith.

First, lets get into mith's mindset:

(On a completely unrelated but important note: I refuse to use the M word when discussing this setup.

It puts us in entirely the wrong mindset.

I was winning Vanilla games when some of you were still in diapers. Probably. I don't know how old you are.)

Ah that good ole M word.
The "us" he means, is him and his scum buddies.
Cause bussing is not the order of the day here, and it will be a reoccurring theme.

Keep in mind, that with DGB flipping scum, let us take a look at our buddy mith.
Mr. DODGE THE WAGON himself.
Everything clicked after my DGB case dropped.

Before the case this can help set the mood:

SocioPath - Just barely above the non-active line; multiple posts with little content. [edit]Until the DGB one; don't feel strongly about it, but it makes me feel better about Sociopath that he spotted the possible slip.[/edit]

Sets up the whole DGB feel.
We'll ignore how I'm so apparently contentless for now, and work with the fact he likes my post regarding DGB.
He notes it is a possible slip.
So possible that he doesn't feel strongly about it.
But he feels better about me though, for something silly like a slip.
Slips aren't exactly little things with a large grey zone.
Either they are slips, or not.
So either you think it is a slip, and act accordingly, or don't think its a slip and then act accordingly.
But no, mith plays both sides of the table with the whole "possible slip" and "don't feel strongly about it".

DrippingGoofball: I'm loving a DemonHybrid/Llamarble/Equinox group right now; they were my top three independently, but DH/Equinox makes a lot of sense given the above, and I quite like Llamarble/Equinox for the sheeping, plus the end of 179: "If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.".

Coaching along with how things are going to go down.
Apparently sheeping is death-worthy above all else.
Yeah, that totally feels natural.

DGB, you might want to try reading my post again. And paying extra special attention to the first eleven characters.

Oh, DGB has an inability to read mith's post correctly.
Perhaps scum skimming scum.
PERHAPS.
mith doesn't mind.
In his mind DGB is infallible.


ALRIGHT.
NOW THE MEAT OF THINGS.

Reading through SocioPath's DGB case... mostly seems to lack substance (and has that distinctive OMGUS feel), until the last two points (about DGB trying to negate a town read on SP by calling it a null tell; and the DGB/Equinox obvtown link). Of the leading wagons, I would still feel more confident switching to Llamarble.

Case dropped, and let us look at how mithyboy handles it.
Eludes that my case is OMGUS. Thats a good dismissal of it to try and undermine its content.

Likes that happy link I was talking about between DGB and Equinox.
This is gold.
Remember at this point his scum of 3 is "DemonHybrid/Llamarble/Equinox".
So he likes that I like Equinox for scum because that rides in with what he was wanting.
Because he already had a scum read of Equinox.
But that would rely on DGB being scum so lets ignore the DGB part.
Because even though Equinox being scum would really tie into the DGB being scum part, lets ignore that little niggling detail.
CAUSE LET US GO AFTER LLAMARBLE INSTEAD.
Thats a better wagon! Look at its steam!
He is a SHEEP!
HE MUST DIE.
Sheep and scum both start with S, therefor marble MUST BE SCUM.


Now for some more fun...

I started rereading DGB with the feeling that this wagon is dodgy (and thus she's probably town), but now I'm not so sure:

Starting right off the bat that the wagon is dodgy.
Cause thats obvious. I mean, it came from me, right?

1. I dismissed this part when reading SocioPath's case

because it's not really a contradiction

, but the whole "I can't tell the Llamas apart" thing seems like an act (178's "I hope I the right Llama [sic]" especially).

You can take this one to the bank.
Says DGB's LLAMAPROBLEM seems like an act.
But who cares, mith will ignore it for now.
THE FACT THAT HE IGNORED IT BECAUSE "

it's not really a contradiction

"?
REALLY NOW?
REALLY?
You are going to sit there and dismiss something because you DON'T FEEL IT WAS A

CONTRADICTION

?

2. "Then why not vote Sociopath instead of Klazam? Klazam hangs a bit lower than Sociopath on the fruit tree." in the same post is exactly the sort of scummy nonsense that DH-scum is guilty of.

Takes a point, NOTING IT AS SCUMMY...AND THEN USES IT TO ALLUDE TO APPLYING IT TO DH.
Sounds like he is reaching for reasons to convince himself of other people now.
Applying DGBscum's to DH.

Sticking with DemonHybrid for now, but I'm starting to talk myself into DGB-scum.

YES. OF COURSE YOU ARE STICKING TO DH.
A DGB VOTE FROM YOU WOULD BE A GAME ENDER AT THIS POINT.

DODGE THAT WAGON.

The M is NOT for mountainous.
The M is for murder.

A DGB scum flip would all but guarantee a mith scum flip.

It's not that a DH town flip reflects well on Equinox (aside from DH having a town read on Equinox); it's that the possible link between them makes Equinox a bit more likely to be scum given that DH's alignment is currently unknown. If DH were to flip town, it would remove that link as a possibility - it's just simple probability.

DH town = Equinox scum...DHscum = Equinox scum.
KAY. GOT IT.




We don't even have to worry about the third buddy.
He knows who he is.
Although he acts like he doesn't.
'WHAT DO ALL THESE WORDS MEAN'
Yeah, keep riding that.

[Sotty7]

I don't really like the Sotty or DH votes, can those wagons die please?

Putting DGB to L-1 yesterday would have been tech. Putting her on it today should at least get other people to comment on the wagon more, so it's at least partly tech.

Mod: Pretty sure Marble unvoted me a page or so back.

I do agree that Mith's vote could be doing something better at this point. He has voiced suspicion of both Llamarble and DGB now, I'd like to see a move to either one.

I had forgotten about DGB's V/LA which sucks because now the power wagon lags as we wait for her to come back. Not cool.

Oh, and happy day of womb escapage S

h

otty...this thread needs more S

h

otty

I was starting to worry you might have gone against all I know and picked a scum role in this game Thor. But Marble's vote on you is so poor I'm slightly eased by the sight of it. Still, who are your top reads atm? I see a lot of Mith pressure but not a lot of actual statements about his alignment.

As for my impression on mith I think he has been less than impressive so far. I don't know if that's because he got stuck in the DH back and forth or if he is really scum. I still think DGB/marble/DH are much scummier than him however.

[Thor665]

Oh, and happy day of womb escapage S

h

otty...this thread needs more S

h

otty

Man, and it's practically a double insult. My bad.
In exchange I'll offer up help in reading;

Still, who are your top reads atm? I see a lot of Mith pressure but not a lot of actual statements about his alignment.

I still like Pie for the rope - the buzzing bee who thinks sarcasm is 'srs tell, srsly' and Mith also go on my scum list.
Let's lynch one of them, I still have dibs on a Mith hammer.

Mith is scum because he's bothering to take time to attack someone's town reads while not actually attacking anything else.

Mith is scum. He's probably currently actually my second top. I still have lingering doubts over Pie, but I think my preference for both of the others is significantly beyond my desire for him at this stage. DGB is public enemy number one.

...
...
...I left the hammer comment in on purpose, just so everyone knows. I want to sig that sucker.

As for my impression on mith I think he has been less than impressive so far. I don't know if that's because he got stuck in the DH back and forth or if he is really scum. I still think DGB/marble/DH are much scummier than him however.

I still don't feel Llama, especially not if I'm right about mith. I'm strongly thinking DH is townish at this stage, I've found him town and so have a number of my team who've read the thread which reinforces my gut and makes me feel proud of myself.

[Llamarble]

Thor's wagons:
Pie, Klazam, and DGB. The biggest wagons.
And he made efforts to help each go to lynch and then abandoned them for the next promising one.
And he is all pokes instead of deeply thought out insightful cases.

Specific (as opposed to the above holistic) scumtells & relational stuff when I have more than a couple minutes free.