268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson

[Adele]

WIFOM means "wine in front of me" and is referencing Vizzini's speech in Princess Bride where he considers which wine glass is more likely poisoned. The way it's used lazily in mafia games is when people say "oh, he brought up a situation that looks right from one angle, but not another! WIFOM!" as though the person who brought up the subject is somehow at fault for doing so simply because it can't be known for sure. Lawyers must employ the "which makes more sense" arguments all the time. Does the opposing counsel say "WIFOM"? Or is the opposing counsel forced to show how his/her case is the stronger? I'm saying that anyone who counters a case with "WIFOM" is attempting a shortcut and, basically, saying "I don't have a compelling counter-argument."

I've gotta disagree with that analysis. The point of WIFOM is the "but that's what he

wants

me to think" regression that turns an otherwise potentially relevant argument into Stone-Paper-Scissors.
For example, in a recent newbie game I argued to the bitter end that Tamuz must be innocent because Kain (the previous day's lynch, and scum) had fought with him; each had sought the lynching of the other, which doesn't make sense if they're both scum. Except Tamuz had banked on someone arguing that when he attacked his scum buddy. The game was a win for him and a lose for me as a result. The point of WIFOM is that "which makes more sense" arguments are very often

not valid

in a mafia context.
When you accuse someone of WIFOM, you're saying a vital aspect of their argument is invalid. Seems like a fairly compelling - if short - counterargument to me.

[Pariah]

Well, this is the way I see it.

No offense to the mod,

but maybe the set up isn't balanced.

It's rather unusual for the mod to say "names that are good = good roles" and "no name claim day 1."

But, then again, the mason traitor theory is also interesting.

So, for right now, I'm not content to vote for anyone, and would prefer to hear more discussion.

[broomhead]

you're saying, basically "don't listen to her -- lynch, lynch, lynch." I think the lack of more votes might indicate that my posts are at least being considered

well when you put down a challenge like can't be night killed-weather for good or bad- it is mighty tempting, just thought i'd let you know.

and thanks for the princess bride lesson, i just saw that movie.

thoughts for now:(all my own, and from my beliefs, not necessarily yours.)
people alive:
Adele
broomhead
chaotic_diablo
Fritzler
MeMe
Pariah
Tamuz

i am going to guess 2 scum left because i believe that that's how the mod tried to balance out the game 3 masons + doc and cop, and 4 mafia with varying night abilities(yes that's what i think, i even think the mafia have their own doc or something as good as that)

so here's my break down on the people

Adele-town, i believe mason-ship is good and pure, no questions(and MeMe i know you have a problem with this mason thing, deal with it)

broomhead-me-i know i am town, say what you like

chaotic_diablo- the person i know least about and has given the least impact full information-good scum trait- so for all intensive purposes, your kinda going to be scum in this little scenario. oh and i know you are supposed to be the cop and all, but giving information after MeMe reveal more about her flavor was kinda scummy to me, maybe it was just bad post timing, maybe not. in the field of scummy-need you and tam are interchangeable

Fritzler-see adele's(yes MeMe, i do believe he is innocent)

MeMe-scum, yes i know you want reasons, scroll through the forum, you've been on people's scum-dar since day one and people have been coming up with reasons for a while.

Pariah-doc- i am hoping, if anyone sees any reasoning to not trust he is the doc i would love to hear it, i mean i see no reason to doubt him so i won't.

Tamuz -hrmmm, tam... what to say, i guess you have a 51% chance of being scum over C_D. lost me steam for this post about half way through.

[broomhead]

It's rather unusual for the mod to say "names that are good = good roles" and "no name claim day 1.

when did the mod say that? i mean, i have thug in my name and i was assured i was good. when did he say this?

[Pariah]

It's rather unusual for the mod to say "names that are good = good roles" and "no name claim day 1.

when did the mod say that? i mean, i have thug in my name and i was assured i was good. when did he say this?

Character

names.

[Adele]

It's rather unusual for the mod to say "names that are good = good roles" and "no name claim day 1.

when did the mod say that? i mean, i have thug in my name and i was assured i was good. when did he say this?

A good rule of thumb: If your character was a hero or a comedy 'sidekick' in the movie - you are town. If you were the villian in the movie you are scum.

(by my reckoning, this rule of thumb neither clears nor condemns MeMe aka Lena)

And I agree with broomhead - I think there are 2 scum remaining. Chaotic, assuming you survive the day, could you by any chance investigate Tamuz tonight? He's pinged my scumdar a lot, but has a really solid claim.

[MeMe]

(and MeMe i know you have a problem with this mason thing, deal with it)

broomhead. Let's say you

weren't

a mason but were pro-town. Now, honestly, wouldn't you have a bit of a "problem" with it? And wouldn't you have further problem with one of said masons telling you to "deal with it"?

MeMe-scum, yes i know you want reasons, scroll through the forum, you've been on people's scum-dar since day one and people have been coming up with reasons for a while.

And people who are on a "scumdar" are

always

scum and I should just say "oh, right. Well, if it's been happening since day one I guess I just have to concede." Is that it?

Furthermore -- mine's a provable role. Lynch someone else or no-lynch and let me vig someone. Neither would lose the game even if I AM scum.

Interestingly, the four-person scum group was initially MY idea and I got a lot of flak for it when I suggested that we tread carefully for fear of losing the game to a four-scum group outright. Adele's "must keep claiming" agenda prevailed, however. Ah -- good times.

As for the WIFOM disagreement: whatever. I don't have any problem with your explanation -- but your example isn't at all applicable to this particular situation unless you're suggesting that you and I are scum together or that I'm scum who was willing to 1) ignore the fact that you'd likely be protected and 2) was hoping that your death

wouldn't

make it more likely I'd be bandwagoned in an instant by your grieving, trusting partners. The first would be idiotic for scum desperate for town deaths...the second would be idiotic for me. So, just come out and say that you're calling me an idiot rather than pretending that "WIFOM" is valid here. 'kay?

[Adele]

But I'm

not

calling you an idiot, MeMe.

scum who was willing to 1) ignore the fact that you'd likely be protected and 2) was hoping that your death wouldn't make it more likely I'd be bandwagoned in an instant by your grieving, trusting partners. The first would be idiotic for scum desperate for town deaths...the second would be idiotic for me.

I thought the likelihood of me being protected was the same as Fritzler and broomhead, and that scum might well think it's worth the 1/3 no-kill risk because (assuming for a moment that all masons are innocent) the scum have to night-kill the masons as quick as possible (that's my opinion, based on the fact that it's unlikely any of us will be lynched soon). And I don't think that you'd be in so much a worse situation if I were dead this morning.

[broomhead]

Furthermore -- mine's a provable role. Lynch someone else or no-lynch and let me vig someone. Neither would lose the game even if I AM scum.

okay, say we left you alive, who would you kill?

[broomhead]

uh, the quote above was MeMe's not sure what happened there

[chaotic_diablo]

[qoute]Pariah-doc- i am hoping, if anyone sees any reasoning to not trust he is the doc i would love to hear it, i mean i see no reason to doubt him so i won't. [/quote]

Pariah isn't cleared. If you imagine him as scum from the beginning instead of finding what scummy things he did, you can quite clearly see that his actions could just as well be a set up.
I'm not quite sure of Pariah's innocence partly because of his actions with maz and what maz said yesterday. I don't get why Maz said the town was gullible and I don't understand why Pariah outed himself as doc if he said himself it wasn't necesary.
What's even more interesting to me is why scum would target someone else rather than the doc. It's clear that scum was smart enough to kill the cop when he first claimed, yet why not the doc? In addition, why didn't pariah protect the cop? There's alot of strange things in my opinion going on with this doc role that seem to be unexplained.

[MeMe]

OK, Adele. We still disagree on the subject, but it doesn't look like either of us will concede any time soon.

broomhead -- I'm open to suggestions.

[Tamuz]

I think CD got a result on me.

And I can see Pariah being scum. He has done the no kill during the night gambit as mafia before with success, I can see him trying again.

[Adele]

I guess we

could

lynch someone else (say, Pariah) and challenge MeMe to vig Chaotic_Diablo. I'm up for that.
What would people think of that plan?

[Fritzler]

I guess we

could

lynch someone else (say, Pariah) and challenge MeMe to vig Chaotic_Diablo. I'm up for that.
What would people think of that plan?

ME too.

[Pariah]

[qoute]Pariah-doc- i am hoping, if anyone sees any reasoning to not trust he is the doc i would love to hear it, i mean i see no reason to doubt him so i won't.

Pariah isn't cleared. If you imagine him as scum from the beginning instead of finding what scummy things he did, you can quite clearly see that his actions could just as well be a set up.
I'm not quite sure of Pariah's innocence partly because of his actions with maz and what maz said yesterday. I don't get why Maz said the town was gullible and I don't understand why Pariah outed himself as doc if he said himself it wasn't necesary.
What's even more interesting to me is why scum would target someone else rather than the doc. It's clear that scum was smart enough to kill the cop when he first claimed, yet why not the doc? In addition, why didn't pariah protect the cop? There's alot of strange things in my opinion going on with this doc role that seem to be unexplained.

First, I'm dealing with time issues. It's all rather stupid and involved, but eventually, I'm going to be not online anymore eventually (at at time I don't currently have set in stone). So, in lieu of getting a replacement, death works too. (If it's a good play, in any case.)

Second, I thought about it for awhile, and I realized that the cop was dead (this is before C_D claimed being a back up), and we have...three claimed masons.

Why didn't I protect the cop? Partially, I didn't think he would be hit. I remember reading something Internet Stranger posted a long time ago in a newb game about "taking the risk of protecting someone else than the claimed cop." There was a roleclaimed doctor. Why would the mafia hit the cop? I thought it was highly unlikely, and a poor choice.

That, and I thought with his claim, Maz was certain to be thwacked. I was internally conflicted over his claim of doctor, because it seemed excessive at the time, but I ended up picking to protect him since I thought he was number one to be hit. But when Stark died, and then Maz claimed to have this weird role involving failure of protection, I was sold to wanting him dead.

Also, please elaborate on this, will you?

Pariah isn't cleared.

If you imagine him as scum from the beginning instead of finding what scummy things he did, you can quite clearly see that his actions could just as well be a set up.

And I can see Pariah being scum. He has done the no kill during the night gambit as mafia before with success, I can see him trying again.

There's a world of difference between that game and this one. That occured in...the summer of last year, and I would think my play style might have changed slightly.

Not to mention the

mod from the game

is playing, and I expect MeMe would probably recall that "stunt" if I tried to pull something similar.

(Although, I do find it kind of fitting in both games I extensively paid attention to, I ended up claiming or being a doctor.)

As to why I wasn't hit, there are, currently, three masons who are "confirmed" with seven people remaining. I would say killing them are a higher priority than killing me, and I suspect Adele, the person I protected, was hit.

Further questions?

[Pariah]

Side Note: I shouldn't need to be replaced as of now, but I may be later.

[Tamuz]

Iunno, its a hard thoughtline. Balance between checking the mason, or checking a "free" player. erggggh

[broomhead]

well pariah's little end speach there was very nice, and i would have bought it too, if not for one little thing, *evil music* option B. DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNN! i mean who can resit, adele's suggestion, its so great, i'll quote it.

I guess we could lynch someone else (say, Pariah) and challenge MeMe to vig Chaotic_Diablo. I'm up for that.
What would people think of that plan?

i like that idea.

MeMe

broomhead -- I'm open to suggestions.

any suggestions for what? breaking the two of you up?

[MeMe]

So the suggestion is to lynch the claimed doc and have me give up my self-protection? Anyone

else

think that getting rid of all protection is a bad idea?

Um. Yeah.

[Tamuz]

I think this masonry needs testing, thats what I think

[broomhead]

and how do you propose that?

[Pariah]

well pariah's little end speach there was very nice, and i would have bought it too, if not for one little thing, *evil music* option B. DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNN! i mean who can resit, adele's suggestion, its so great, i'll quote it.

I guess we could lynch someone else (say, Pariah) and challenge MeMe to vig Chaotic_Diablo. I'm up for that.
What would people think of that plan?

i like that idea.

MeMe

broomhead -- I'm open to suggestions.

any suggestions for what? breaking the two of you up?

...

Wow.

I really don't like this post. And I don't like your doctor bait from eariler.

So, boiled down, what you're saying is...all the things I said were nice and dandy, but instead of actually presenting a reason why any of the things I said were...actually WRONG, you instead say "this plan is so great" without justifying it at all, and quoting it, then saying "I like this idea."

[Pariah]

and how do you propose that?

I'm pretty sure he's implying a lynch.

[broomhead]

OK calm down, i got a little over excited with all the killing. after MeMe's post i didn't realize how bad it made it seem. and tam, are you suggesting we kill a (in my mind) proven town to prove to the rest of the vanilla town(which there isn't that much of) that the remaining masons are clear? i'm not thinkin' thats such a good idea