Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[InflatablePie]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

More comfortable being on a wagon with Socio than mith.

Make up your damn minds, people.

* = I read later that Thor665 voted SocioPath for his "/conform" post and not That Thing, which means what I said above no longer applies. That is still the thought process I had at the time.

You mean voted me, right? <_<

actual bunch of awesome content eventually when I feel like it and/or don't have plans most of the day for once

[Equinox]

You mean voted me, right? <_<

Whoops. Yes, I did.

Your vote reminds me that I had something I wanted to poke DrippingGoofball about.

You've obvtown... AGAIN. You just can't help it.

Is that why you had me vigged?

Seriously, though, in that game, you dismissed my high activity and devil-may-cry play in zoraster's game when people confronted you about your scum read of me. That should point to those two tells being null in your eyes; what changed between then and now?

[Equinox]

Part 2 of this totally amazing series that you should be reading: Chris B

I do question the motives behind posts made by anyone who's obviously done just that searching before I make a post in the game though.

Our team is playing to win the competition in addition to the four individual games. We will, and have, do(ne) the research.

Though if you're curious, we saw a name in the player lists we had never seen before, and this name had made zero posts on the forum. We assumed that there were 3 people familiar with you enough to put you on a team for something like this, and I was elitist enough to believe that 1) you'd be facing a learning curve and 2) the team would not hand you a scum role PM for precisely that reason.

I did consider your possible experience off-site a little, but I'll freely admit that I dismissed it. Unless said site is similar to the mafiascum.net style here, there's going to be some culture shocks; if you're scum, it would become fairly apparent. I think that, between the four of us, we've seen enough new-to-mafiascum.net experienced players to be able to spot them.

Not to mention the people who I think are on your team would expect this of the other Team Mafia players.

...all of that makes me sound like a total cock, doesn't it. Meh.

It strikes me more as trying to get a reaction, by implying I'm the total n00b of the team. So what reaction were you going for? It's the first time I've ever seen a read on someone before they've actually posted.

Eh, not really. That was a real read. I was prepared to completely switch if you'd displayed a poor reaction or something, though.

Oh, that was short. I don't know yet who gets the next awesome installment that is PART 3. It shall be a surprise, I guess.

[LlamaFluff]

Socio-DGB I think is town on town.

Wiki / meta corroborates Thor's story -> townpoints -> IT'S SHEEPIN' TIME.
VOTE: InflatablePie

What wiki/meta?

I haven't found the secretIPscumtell myself. I have some idea what sort of thing it could be though.
I was mainly getoutofrvs sheeping Thorprobtown after my attempt to wagon myself generated stunningly minimal interest.

marf?

Not to mention the "Equniox is obv town! (but im going to be wary of him)"

Pie and DH copying Soico's RVS was really bizarre. I don't like it much. Klazam's vote is probably the worst of the bunch though. He also completely ignores the “super secret scum tell wagon” on Pie.

You don't like Klazam & I think he's scum too. So why am I scum again? Your thought process feels incongruous.

This is what I was talking about too. You are trying to downplay the suspicion from Sotty on you because your suspicions are similar to hers. It seems like a very roundabout way of trying to clear yourself by not actually responding to points, but instead trying to flip pressure right back on Sotty because one of your reads is the same. Have you never had a game where you suspect a couple people, and one of them suspects another? It happens, and you are trying to cut down the strength of the case on it.

@mod

- Just bolding it, im going to have no access from about this time tomorrow until late Saturday (maybe early Sunday)

Unvote
Vote Llamarble

[Equinox]

Hey, LlamaFluff. You were all over me earlier in the day for being overly coy or something, and now it's like I've fallen off the face of the planet. I mean, I guess I did for a couple of days, but that shouldn't matter in the larger picture. So, what's up?

[LlamaFluff]

Hey, LlamaFluff. You were all over me earlier in the day for being overly coy or something, and now it's like I've fallen off the face of the planet. I mean, I guess I did for a couple of days, but that shouldn't matter in the larger picture. So, what's up?

What do you want?

I dont think you are super obvious town or anything along those lines. Infact I would be thrilled to have a cop check you tonight if we actually had one. Thing is though, im not going to get any support for your lynch, and the response to a few posts sounded like you thought your vote was correct. By no means does that mean that you are town, ive gotten myself out of jams by being "genuine", but I would rather poke around elsewhere for a little.

[Equinox]

In other words, you don't think I'm town, but you're not going to put pressure on me because the other skirts look prettier.

Cool, I guess.

[LlamaFluff]

In other words, you don't think I'm town, but you're not going to put pressure on me because the other skirts look prettier.

Not quite.

I just dont think a read can be furthered by continuing a back and forth and this point. I made my decision based on a few posts, and you responded. Anything continuing from there would be driving the game in a direction that it doesnt need to be driven at this stage of the game, instead observation and continual development of a read is going to be the best plan of action, eventually revisiting it if new reasons surface for you being scum, or abandoning it if my reads change.

Forcing an issue will normally just damage the town. See any game with RAGE posters in it for examples of how forcing the issue can damage the town.

[Equinox]

Okay, so I was planning on busting out a list of reads based on a full reread, but I'm falling asleep right now and I only got as far as the middle of page 7. Gonna continue this in the morning.

Unvote

[Sevei]

I'm finally caught up. A quick explanation: 1) I didn't check the thread Sunday because I wasn't thinking about the game or the fact that it was the 15th; 2) I volunteered to do a favor for a relative on Monday and thought it would only take a couple of hours, and instead it took fifteen; 3) I didn't have a chance to sit down and read all nine pages until late tonight. However, now that I've caught up, I should be able to stay up. (However, it's almost 5am, so I'm keeping this short and sweet.)

Vote: Llamarble

Sotty's made most of the points I have on him already, but I wanted to add that I think there he went a little overboard early on and gave a lot of superfluous information about why he is town in this game, and that coupled with his early FoS list just seems like he's trying way too hard to appear town who is anxiously scumhunting.

He's also careful to label his vote on Klazam as being L-3 after the vote threshold is discussed in relation to Equinox thinking a hammer had happened. This reads as unnecessary caution.

DGB

: Spends 178 talking about Marble because she is pressed to do so, but avoids coming to any kind of actual conclusion about him, instead concluding that SP is still scum. Basically her "analysis" of Marble could be taken either way. (Marble doesn't talk about her, either--but I bet he will now.)

Also not buying that DGB is confused about the Llamas as she claims not once but twice. (Posts 176 and 178) She's not expressed this confusion before, when addressing Fluff.

So basically I see a connection there, but would prefer lynching Marble because a lot of what I see with DGB is based on a perceived connection.

[Sotty7]

Equi is right in that I haven't been able to read her successfully yet. Well unless you count MoCo but I wasn't directly playing there. It was because of this I was willing to admit I might be wrong about her when I was talking with Thor. I have downgraded her because of this plus 197 actually makes me feel quite a bit better about her now.

The appearance of a marble wagon is giving me the warm and fuzzies.

I need to read Socio's case on DGB in depth as well as an ISO of DH. Both things I have skimmed which isn't enough to form an opinion.

[mith]

Everyone: Could someone more familiar with DemonHybrid's play tell me if it's usual (as town or as scum) for him to apologize so much to someone attacking him?

DemonHybrid:

"I apologize, but I also believe that I've said a few times that Equinox was not on my scumlist to IP." - Ok... but "not on my scumlist" does not equal "town", anymore than you telling LlamaFluff you weren't ruling her out as scum equates to you calling her obvscum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never talked about your "read" on Equinox except in the negative ("I'm not ruling her out"; "I didn't say that!"; "I never posted any suspicion of her").

The point is that when you were asked directly about her alignment (by me), you brought up some points in her favor which I would have thought would be relevant in discussing her previously. I'm trying to figure out why you didn't bring them up immediately, rather than going to more indirect route of "I'm not ruling Equinox out, but you should be voting IP if you think that". (Note that the "strong townish response" she supposedly gave in post 49 was

before

the LlamaFluff and InflatablePie exchanges.) My current hypothesis is that you didn't bring them up because you're lying scum, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

"If he really believed an Equinox-IP scumteam, he would have..." - I can't speak for what's in LlamaFluff's mind or what he should have done, but when I look at pairings early in a game I don't tend to treat those reads as stone cold 100% certainty, and my vote tends to go on whoever's behaviour I'm keying on. "You think this pair are scum together, so why don't you vote for the other one instead?" always sets off alarms for me (except in cases where there really is that near-certainty; i.e. "if Equinox is scum, IP

must

be, so IP is the better vote").

---

Reading through SocioPath's DGB case... mostly seems to lack substance (and has that distinctive OMGUS feel), until the last two points (about DGB trying to negate a town read on SP by calling it a null tell; and the DGB/Equinox obvtown link). Of the leading wagons, I would still feel more confident switching to Llamarble.

(LlamaFluff drops down The List™ to "solidly town" status. Still not sure what was bothering the gut, but it's gone now.)

[DemonHybrid]

Ok... but "not on my scumlist" does not equal "town", anymore than you telling LlamaFluff you weren't ruling her out as scum equates to you calling her obvscum. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you never talked about your "read" on Equinox except in the negative ("I'm not ruling her out"; "I didn't say that!"; "I never posted any suspicion of her").

And that isn't enough? I'm pretty sure I said it was implied a few times now.

The point is that when you were asked directly about her alignment (by me), you brought up some points in her favor which I would have thought would be relevant in discussing her previously. I'm trying to figure out why you didn't bring them up immediately, rather than going to more indirect route of "I'm not ruling Equinox out, but you should be voting IP if you think that". (Note that the "strong townish response" she supposedly gave in post 49 was before the LlamaFluff and InflatablePie exchanges.) My current hypothesis is that you didn't bring them up because you're lying scum, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

My exact read on Equinox had not been relevant at the time. I asked Equinox a question, she responded. I let it go and agreed with her. Llama said that I posted suspicion on her. I didn't. If I don't have a scum read, then you could at least be able to deduce that I have a null or higher read. Sure, I didn't specify her as exact town, but I was busy talking to Llama and IP about other things. At least I can back up my claim by showing that there was no reason or motivation to attack Equinox, especially when I say something like "She could be scum, but nah. Lets focus on you instead, Llama".

I can't speak for what's in LlamaFluff's mind or what he should have done, but when I look at pairings early in a game I don't tend to treat those reads as stone cold 100% certainty, and my vote tends to go on whoever's behaviour I'm keying on. "You think this pair are scum together, so why don't you vote for the other one instead?" always sets off alarms for me (except in cases where there really is that near-certainty; i.e. "if Equinox is scum, IP must be, so IP is the better vote").

First off, that first sentence is laughable. I'd like you to tell me who is 100% certain about a read at this point in a game. That's "confirmed scum" or "confirmed town" territory.

Second, do you need me to restate the wagons on both Equinox and IP? IP had about 4 or 5 people on him at the time, yet Llama votes a single vote on Equinox and calls them a scum team. Soooooooooo...that's not weird how?

And it's in my personality to apologize to someone when I respect them, and I do it non-consciously. I've never played with you before, and you pretty much created the site, so a little of Matt mixed in with my DemonHybrid for a second there.

[mith]

In reading through again, I realized that we're arguing about some sort of alternate reality -

LlamaFluff didn't call Equinox-IP a scum team at all.

It would be hypocritical of me to find fault with you for missing it, since I only just now noticed... I'm not sure it takes away from your argument being scummy, though:

"I'd like you to tell me who is 100% certain about a read at this point in a game." - That's precisely my point! In our fictional world where LlamaFluff has a non-certain Equinox-IP link based on Equinox's behaviour, and also a scum read on Equinox alone, it would be utterly foolish of him to switch to IP; in AlterFluff's worldview, IP's scumminess is dependent on Equinox's, and Equinox is the more likely suspect. The size of IP's wagon is mostly irrelevant (if not harmful to your case - you're suggesting LlamaFluff should have pushed IP to L-1 when IP wasn't his top suspect?) this early in the day - if it were 12 hours to deadline with IP and another (non-Equinox) player at L-2, and LlamaFluff voted for Equinox then, yeah, that would be weird/suspicious.

As for the rest... "If I don't have a scum read, then you could at least be able to deduce that I have a null or higher read." - If you haven't said anything either way, I would deduce that you have a null read. If you later tell me you had a town read all along, I find that highly dubious.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm at the gym at the moment, so I'll get back to you about Llama in an hour. It's possible that I misread his statement.

Second, what does it matter whether I has a town or null read on Equinox anyway? I agreed with her, and I stated before that I don't HAVE to agree with someone and only someone I have a solid town read on. If you told me that no one has ever agreed with someone they have a null read on, I wouldn't believe you. Since you know from my exchange with Llama and IP that she was at least not a scumread, then why are you pushing that as a point?

[mith]

Why do you keep bringing up that you agreed with her (or what you thought she was implying, to be more accurate)? My issue there was that you were justifying your bandwagon vote by agreeing with something that wasn't said; it had nothing whatsoever to do with your read on her.

I keep bringing up your read on Equinox because:

a. It's odd that you didn't share that read when you formed it, rather than later.
b. Your exchange with LlamaFluff seems to me like a soft-defense of a scumbuddy without committing to a stance on her, or perhaps an opportunistic attempt to push LlamaFluff toward IP after misunderstanding his Equinox-IP statement, or both.

[Equinox]

Two things caught my eye here:

Vote Equinox

Very unrandom. There is no backing to an IP wagon as herp-derping is not a scumtell, just a competence one. Equinox is pushing it more then "random wagon" on something like this being a tell.

Other good votes are marble and Klazam.

@DH - A better way to get out of the RVS is to vote someone who has done something scummy. Which has happened already. You can give it to Equniox for trying to bait someone into hammering if you want to transcend the aformentioned points of trying to run up IP as a random wagon. Super cool part of all of this? Equinox-IP is already out as a scumteam.

In between, there's some rabble from me explaining that it was a team tell (which went woosh) and DemonHybrid asking about using meta to kick off RVS.

(Upon reread, I

still

think my explanation there was obvious. Eh, to each his own, I guess.)

So, yeah, what made you change your opinion here from Equinox/Klazam/Llamarble as good votes to an Equinox/InflatablePie scum team?

[Llamarble]

For one thing I am a pretty threshold labely person in general.
I wasn't sure how many votes Klazam had before I voted so I went and checked and the information is useful so I mentioned it.

I already reported what wiki/meta:

On Thor: His wiki comments after his mafia win (mini 957) verified the being town at heart thing & his wiki was last edited in october.

Marf what?

Also as I've said, I got a strong townread on Equinox that was totally wrong once, so I'm going to be wary.
I'm a substantially better player than I was then, but fool me twice, etc.
I addressed the 2 points Shotty made in that post. If you think I dodged / unsatisfactorily addressed something, point it out.
Yes, sometimes suspects suspect suspects. There aren't many "ONLY SCUM EVER DO THIS RAWR" moves.
I read Sotty as scum doing that rather than town.

My little birdies don't like Fluff post 73 for 'I'm still right but I'm not pursuing this anymore.'
Which makes my little birdies on the same wavelength as Equinox and furthers her town-ness.

@Equinox: I think when he said "IP + Eq are out as a team" he was ruling the pair out, not saying he thought that was the pairing.

I'll quickread DGB now and then be off for most of the day.

[Equinox]

The next post from me is going be a bit more comprehensive and current. I hope. For now, though, I need to see how Klazam's brain works because I want to know him better before I eat his creamy nougat center.

PEdit: IP self voting? that is scummy, indeed. I'm starting to like where my vote is.

You mention later in your list of reads that you still saw some of InflatablePie's moves as scummy and thus read him overall as "null, leaning scum." Therefore, I'll go ahead and assume nothing changed from this point.

Considering the inherent handicap to scum in this setup, how would InflatablePie's L-1 vote have benefited scum?

---

@Equinox: I think when he said "IP + Eq are out as a team" he was ruling the pair out, not saying he thought that was the pairing.

Oh, wait, that actually makes sense. Post 57 makes sense now.

Uh, yeah, scratch post 216.

[Llamarble]

DGB makes a lot of sense to me overall. I like her readslist, her Sociopath case, and her Equinox townread.
Quickread is as town, but I'll deepanalyze later.

In fact, my reads are out of date enough that I'll

Unvote

[Equinox]

I like ... [DrippingGoofball's] Equinox townread.

*eyes Llamarble*

[DemonHybrid]

Why do you keep bringing up that you agreed with her (or what you thought she was implying, to be more accurate)? My issue there was that you were justifying your bandwagon vote by agreeing with something that wasn't said; it had nothing whatsoever to do with your read on her.

I keep bringing up your read on Equinox because:

a. It's odd that you didn't share that read when you formed it, rather than later.
b. Your exchange with LlamaFluff seems to me like a soft-defense of a scumbuddy without committing to a stance on her, or perhaps an opportunistic attempt to push LlamaFluff toward IP after misunderstanding his Equinox-IP statement, or both.

Because I thought that was the point of the argument that you have against me. If the whole issue is the reasoning on my agreeing with something she never said, it was just misunderstanding. I thought she was talking about preference meta, which is something that resonated louder than just team meta.

For your a.: I felt like I didn't need to. You keep saying that it has nothing to do with my read, yet you keep talking about it.
b.: First off, I read back to Llama's post. I CAN see the conditional between Llama's read on Equinox and IP as a scumteam, but he mentions nothing about "IP is scum if Equinox is". He says "Equinox and IP are outed as a scumteam". I'd like him to confirm what he meant, though.

Second off, you're missing the motivation. If it's a misunderstanding and he really did state a conditional, then you can understand why I'd push a point like that without knowing what he really meant, right? If he meant a conditional, it wasn't exactly black and white. More like camo-colored.

LlamaFluff

: Can you confirm whether or not your Equinox-IP scumteam read was a conditional "IP is scum if Equinox is", or whether you stated both of them was a scumteam to you at that specific time (as in, both were scummy and both would flip scum)?

[LlamaFluff]

Well I will make this clear(er) since no one apparently understood terminology.

Equinox-IP is out as a scumteam means that its thrown out, like its not happening, like I would put one as my strongest town read if the other flipped scum. Even if Equinox is town, I still like IP for town more than not.

[DemonHybrid]

Oh, wow. I thought you mean like, out, as in out there.

Wow, I read that so fucking wrong.

I need to reread everything.

[Sevei]

(Marble doesn't talk about [DGB], either--but I bet he will now.)

I'll quickread DGB now and then be off for most of the day.

DGB makes a lot of sense to me overall. I like her readslist, her Sociopath case, and her Equinox townread.
Quickread is as town, but I'll deepanalyze later.

Marble, you make no mention of anything I said about you or DGB in 217, yet you feel the need to announce you are now going to look at DGB out of the blue? Why DGB at that point specifically? Because aside from my comments, there doesn't seem to be any reason for you to have done that at that particular point in time.