Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia

[DemonHybrid]

@Sotty: Sure, sorry. I have a habit of copy-pasting and manually adding quote tags. I'll remember that for now on.

[DrippingGoofball]

What's your opinion on Marable DGB?

My brain is tiny and I can't tell him apart from the other llama. Iso coming up.

[DrippingGoofball]

Get with the program, please. Explain why you disagree with the other wagon or die.

No thanks.

Unvote
Vote: Klazam

This was the post that made me think Socio was town. His out right refusal to co-operate with Equi combined with a good Klazam vote.

For Socio that's a null-tell.

[DrippingGoofball]

On

Llamamarble

(I hope I the right Llama)

(0) RVS self-vote is scummy like Sociopath blurting out that he's scum.

(1) He's asking players questions about why they chose this game on the premise that whoever is scum, chose to be.

The premise itself is wobbly, because of the particular that this game is mountainous and many people are averse to that - it can be a short straw "pick." However, why bring something up that might expose himself, if he were scum?

(2) However, he subscribes to Thor's self-meta uncritically.

(3) "Sociopath is my first guess for a Klazambuddy for voting him & voting him again while not doing much else, but we'll see how things shake out." Then why not vote Sociopath instead of Klazam? Klazam hangs a bit lower than Sociopath on the fruit tree.

(4) In post #7, he says he'll have limited access, but there is a will to make up for that in the three large wallzoposts that follow.

(5) He finds behavior in Sotty that I normally find scummy in others, but I know Sotty better than I used to and I see enough reasons to give her the benefit of the doubt.

VERDICT: Sociopath is still the King of 5!<u/\/\.

[Llamarble]

@Sotty:
Answers were nonuseless but not awesomeuseful and I'm already behind on deep game analysis so I'm spending my next gametime on that; there are a lot of players I haven't properly studied yet. Thor's reasoning for why he'd pick town was strongest. Uncritically? I went and checked it. It's not like I'm calling him confirmed town.
As for following up, the fact that you're well respected as scum does add to my belief that your team would want you as scum.
I felt self-voting could help get the game out of RVS.
Again, I didn't think about moving my vote. I put it down someplace I thought could produce discussion and started thinking about the game.
I found it reasonable Equinox might have some kind of nonrevealable tell on IP due to the mechanics of teammafia.
Thor and Equinox _both_ claiming to have found it made it seem much more likely even though I couldn't. (I have no idea IP's teammates)
Being in individualtellsmode does explain lack of coherenttownperspective. I'll think more about that.
Again, Equinox didn't like the parroting on the Mith wagon either, and was trying to interact with its members.
If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.

[DrippingGoofball]

(6) Llamarble ate the paragraph key on his keyboard.

[mith]

DemonHybrid: Fair enough if you would have spoken up on suspecting Equinox, but wouldn't you also speak up (before now, when you have been asked about her directly) if you found her townish? That whole exchange with LlamaFluff reads like you were trying to defend Equinox without actually coming out and committing to a town read (in case things went south?).

First in 51, we have you responding to LlamaFluff's vote by questioning his stance on meta; the follow-up in 55 then asks (paraphrasing) "Well if you think it's Equinox-IP, why aren't you picking on IP??".

So that's part of what was odd about that exchange. Then you apparently take offense when he implies you agree with him about Equinox - again without actually saying "No, I think she's town", followed by some "I FOSed you and you didn't respond" sulking. Meh.

(I'm not sure which point you're talking about with "I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person." - if you're talking about your post 45 point 2, I'm still lost, because you're saying you have the right to agree to a point which was never made. If you're talking about some other point, clarify.)

DrippingGoofball: I'm loving a DemonHybrid/Llamarble/Equinox group right now; they were my top three independently, but DH/Equinox makes a lot of sense given the above, and I quite like Llamarble/Equinox for the sheeping, plus the end of 179: "If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.".

[Sotty7]

Something quick as I am going to lunch:

Again, Equinox didn't like the parroting on the Mith wagon either, and was trying to interact with its members.
If I were Sottytown and didn't like the parroting, I'd have liked Equinox for wavelengthsharing on disliking the Mith wagon parroting.

"WHY DIDN'T HE X" is easy scumpainting logic because it is readily wielded against townies and sounds logically sound.

I'm admittedly tempted to switch to Socio but

come on

.

[DrippingGoofball]

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Equinox >>> first to post, jumps in. Townie all around.
InflatablePie >>> Suggests self-vote in #28??? Defensive. Self-vote? WHY - but early VCA is mega town tell and erases every other concern I may have had.

DrippingGoofball is probably scum. Hai Goofball. No, I'm not obvtown, sorry.

You've obvtown... AGAIN. You just can't help it.

@ mith
I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm hedging my bets on Equinox in case it "goes south."

I'm trying to figure out if that misrep comes from scum or town or if someone slipped something in your drink.

In other news

, Llamamarble & Sotty are sounding like town vs. town.

[mith]

DGB, you might want to try reading my post again. And paying extra special attention to the first eleven characters.

[InflatablePie]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DemonHybrid

Meh.

[Llamarble]

A logic structure that's easy to use for fake scumhunting isn't automatically totally useless.
Also there's a difference between omitting a behavior and having the opposite of the selfconsistent impression of something.

Time to fly!

[Llamarble]

I'll do thorough reads on all these miniwagons next time I get access.

[SocioPath]

SocioPath picked the scum game, though.

Wait...
THE scum game?
What are you implying?
Oh this is good.

Unvote
Vote: DGB

A game with a scum role, that's how you ended up here.

Oh, finally DGB says something TO me, and not ABOUT me.
Also, its the only post accompanied with a little emoticon.
One that is of dismissal.
Perhaps the catch is a catch that flew right past the eyes of DGB.

I've seen too many scumz lurk and fake business and postpone

ad infinitum

.

Yeah, me too.
Case in point:

DGB not posting as often is making me a bit skeptical.

I'm busy installing wall glass mosaics. Then I'll be away from Thursday AM to Sunday PM (with daily access). Anyhoo, I have time now, fasten your seatbelts.

Someone calls out DGB for "not posting as often" and she immediately jumps in to defend it.
Someone posts else posts that they haven't been able to post yet, and DGB immediately jumps in to attack it.

Socio's own meta isn't even convincing.

My own meta isn't even convincing...when it comes to me being town, and picking this game...and yet...

It’s obvious you think that Socio would take a scum role, regardless of game. True or false?

Exactly. And he's admitted as much on three different occasion, in this very game.

My own meta apparently pulls through for me picking "the scum game"

SocioPath picked the scum game, though.

VOTE: Sociopath

SocioPath >>> by his own self-admission. Those are never jokes. And then again in #84

So, according to his self-declared meta, we should assume that Scummopath would choose a town game, because as scum this would be COUNTERPRODUCTIVE??? REINFORCE THE NEGATIVE LIGHTING?

Except that Sociopath is scum 4 sure.

Apparently DGB is an expert at reading me...and yet...

What's your opinion on Marable DGB?

My brain is tiny and I can't tell him apart from the other llama. Iso coming up.

When asked of an opinion on another person, apparently her brain goes to tiny mode.

I've been scum enough. Strong opening gambits are town tells. Weak entrances are scum tells.

Strong opening gambits are town tells...and yet...

Socio is town.

He's not. A player that jokes THREE TIMES that he's scum, is scum. In his brain, he is very nervous about the necessity to be deceptive, and he is releasing this tension by "jokingly" telling the truth.

So Sociopath is scum.

Apparently "strong opening gambits" don't include "claiming scum" as you keep saying that I did...and yet...

I'm a daycop.

In a way, DGB is a daycop though...

Then there was the first part again...

IHowever, some of the most successful scum teams I've seen have had aggressive players in them, especially early in the game. Is this particularly different on this forum, or are you just easily swayed by a strong opening gambit? This goes for both VCA and jumping in early.

I've been scum enough. Strong opening gambits are town tells. Weak entrances are scum tells.

Sounds like DGB is disagreeing with a player for selfmeta reasons...and yet...

@DGB - Self-meta is fairly useless in this game

Self-meta is a scumtell. You give your self-meta, then you do the opposite, WIFOM-gravy!

I don't self-meta because I am the worst possible judge of myself. I assume that is true of other people, and that the self-meta is a manipulative device, generally.

And then there is this:

Get with the program, please. Explain why you disagree with the other wagon or die.

No thanks.

Unvote
Vote: Klazam

This was the post that made me think Socio was town. His out right refusal to co-operate with Equi combined with a good Klazam vote.

For Socio that's a null-tell.

Apparently everything I said and do is scummy.
Except where people find me town.
THAT CERTAINLY IS NULL FOR ME.
Negatives are negatives, and positives are nulls.
What the hell IS a town tell for me then if I have so many scum tells? AND NULL TELLS?


All in all, DGB is a walking self-contradiction, saying only what applies that second to try and make the tunnel narrower.

I see you DGB, my eyes are open.

And now? And now for some icing on this delicious cake.
From what I know/seen/have experienced, DGB is antsy around her own scum buddies, and tends to dismiss them early so she doesn't have to form a real opinion on them.
In a game where bussing is EXTRA FATAL, I find this to be EXTRA TRUE.

DrippingGoofball is probably scum. Hai Goofball. No, I'm not obvtown, sorry.

You've obvtown... AGAIN. You just can't help it.

She LOVES calling her scum buddies OBVTOWN.
She has done the EXACT same thing to ME, as we were SCUM TOGETHER.

I've played many games with DGB, and have been scum with her several times.
AND FOLKS, DGB CERTAINLY AINT TOWN THIS GAME.
She isn't as unreadable as many people seem to think.

[DemonHybrid]

DemonHybrid: Fair enough if you would have spoken up on suspecting Equinox, but wouldn't you also speak up (before now, when you have been asked about her directly) if you found her townish? That whole exchange with LlamaFluff reads like you were trying to defend Equinox without actually coming out and committing to a town read (in case things went south?).

First in 51, we have you responding to LlamaFluff's vote by questioning his stance on meta; the follow-up in 55 then asks (paraphrasing) "Well if you think it's Equinox-IP, why aren't you picking on IP??".

So that's part of what was odd about that exchange. Then you apparently take offense when he implies you agree with him about Equinox - again without actually saying "No, I think she's town", followed by some "I FOSed you and you didn't respond" sulking. Meh.

(I'm not sure which point you're talking about with "I believe I have the right to agree with a point, even though I don't have a specific read on a person." - if you're talking about your post 45 point 2, I'm still lost, because you're saying you have the right to agree to a point which was never made. If you're talking about some other point, clarify.)

I apologize, but I also believe that I've said a few times that Equinox was not on my scumlist to IP. I would have assumed that it was implied at this part.

About my point to Llama about his avoidance of attacking IP, you have to realize that IP had a huge wagon at that point. If he really believed an Equinox-IP scumteam, he would have sided with the much larger wagon instead of voting Equinox and letting it go, since an IP scumflip would incriminate Equinox to him and vice versa. I don't find it genuine.

As far as my agreeing with Equinox, at the time, I thought she was talking about preference meta and I agreed with that at the time, even though that's what she wasn't talking about. It was a misunderstanding. I also didn't have a strong read on her until her response at #49, which was the point I was trying to stress.

Basically, in a nutshell: I didn't have a clear town read on Equinox until #49, but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45. I thought my town read on Equinox was implied from my exchange with LlamaFluff (when I said multiple times that I didn't agree with Equinox being scummy), which is something that you noted, so I'm not sure why you brought all of it up.

Pie: Where's your Llamarble read?

[DemonHybrid]

EBWOP

I apologize, but I also believe that I've said a few times that Equinox was not on my scumlist to IP and LlamaFluff. I would have assumed that it was implied at this part.

I forgot that I talked to both Llama and IP about my read on Equinox.

[DemonHybrid]

Another EBWOP:

but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45.

but I agreed with her in my point 2 in #45 (however, as stated above, it's not the point she was trying to get across).

I typed it hastily. Also, while thinking about it, I still had the mindset that she was talking about preference meta. Apologies.

[InflatablePie]

The only read I have on Llamarble is that he's town due to meta/choice reasons alone.

I'll look into his posts later tonight, maybe.

[Thor665]

Let's do this.

Unvote: Kalzam
Vote: DGB

I usually get slight town tells off of whoever attacks DGB first in a game. Also I'm much more interested in playing the DGB/Socio game than anything else currently.

[Chris B]

Ugh, I'm reading through more carefully from the start now, and beginning to get my head around the game. It's coming up to 1am here, and I've only got to page 4 - please don't all go crazy tonight with stuff, and I may be able to catch up properly by tomorrow... (yes, I'm that selfish).

Okay, based on the first few pages, I'm actually sticking with my vote on Equinox. It started off because it seems that non-voting is frowned upon here, and I disliked the way she jumped on me. It took me a little while to put my finger on, but by massively pushing the n00b thing, to the point of raw n00b, it rather pushes that any conclusions I draw are useless, and takes an unknown quantity out of the game. Sure, there's an element of OMGUS in there, but it seemed a good start.

Through going through the first part of the game, here's my ntoes, and what stood out to me:

Drops hints constantly without saying anything. Baits people into voting for Inflatable Pie. Not liking the way she pushes people to vote this early in the game. Could be intentional distancing from Inflatable. Post 40, complains that people are ignoring the IP wagon. Within six posts, she criticises them for hammering (post 46). Weak reasons for not pushing anyone else other than IP (post 49)

Pushing against IP based on team composition according to post 56. Complains that people weren't voting against IP again. Points out that she didn't post-bait between the two last posts, but there was very little time for her to have done so. Votes for llamafluff in what appears to be OMGUS.

The real standout is the excuse about not pushing the wagon between what she thought was L-1 and hammer. This is hardly a strong excuse, since there wasn't much time between them.

Now, I think that she and IP are working together. The self-vote gambit allowed her to back off the wagon while still criticising people. IP has been acting weirdly, including criticising Equi for getting off the wagon, and criticising Klazam for staying on it. Despite that fact that, verbally, he criticised Equi more at the time, he actually voted for Klazam. Strikes me as a serious case of distancing. Note that I think Equi was lying when she 'thought' that people were closer to L-1 than they were.

Klazam - do you agree with this? You thought that the self-vote was scummy. I wouldn't agree if you're bringing yourself to L-1 (there's no real gain other than bullying the lynch back down), UNLESS...you had a scum partner who was going to ease off the pressure, and put the focus onto anyone on the wagon.

Demonhybrid has my FOS, based on his apparent inability to understand Llamafluff, who was really being quite clear, as well as being very careful wording any suspicion of Equinox.

Goof also has my FOS, based on his jumping all over lurkers within hours of the game starting. Lurker-hunting is always a nice way to make it look like you're doing something active. On top of that, his 'town list' corresponds exactly with my 'scum list'.

My 'currently trusted' list is Mith and Llamafluff - both of them seem to think in ways that I like, and seem to be actively pushing and hunting rather than just being aggressive and concentrating on meta. Reading through the first few pages, Llama seemed to be posting the questions I was noting to myself, and I immediately like that.

[Equinox]

Hey hey HEY I'm here and stuff 'cuz my finals are done. Two things on my plate for the evenin':

1) Catch up and yell at some of you because INTERESTING THINGS were said in Equiteamland
2) Reread the entire game because it's page 8 and I'm not angry at LlamaFluff anymore

I'm posting this here because I may end up wandering away, since it's break and right now and I'd rather be doing anything but work. Mafia is work by the current definition. Uh, basically, what I'm asking is, hold me to this and make sure I keep my word, etc. Don't let me run off and play Portal or something.

Oh, and also, whoever came up with the term "team meta" (I think it was this thread, fuzzy memory at the moment), I love you so much and I'll be stealing it.

Okay, boom.

No, wait, before I go, lemme ask you lot something because something hit me and it might explain why stuff happened: Do you read your teammates' games?

Also, Sotty7, question was raised about your team; has your team done any team hunting at all?

[Thor665]

@Chris - you like mith because of his 2 posts? You also manage to tunnel the everloving bejeezus out of Equinox while openly stating you are only up to Page 4. If you think she and IP are working together than vote IP, I'll back that play and then we can consider your case if IP is scum, win/win right?

@Equinox - I intend to/should. I haven't yet.

[Equinox]

All right, folks, I'm doing this catch-up differently because quote-striping everyone in not-very-random-but-still-bloody-random order is a silly thing to do.

First in a series of many red-headed posts, a post specially made for Sotty7:

Damn Equi.... What's with the pole up your ass? I don't think I have ever seen you so up tight. This doesn't give me good vibes at all.

I wasn't riding you about giving no reads, I said you were up tight and you are. This does not resemble anything like Equitown I have seen before. Normally you roll your sleeves up and get down to business to busting heads. In this game you have been abrasive, condescending and extremely OTT. Why?

Tell me this, then: You catch a tell, a fairly strong one. Obviously, you're gagged and can't say anything, but you feel compelled to say

something

in the hopes that someone gets it because you can hardly say, "HE'S SCUM BECAUSE I KNOW HE IS" and form a serious wagon. Someone comes along to ask about this, and you drop increasingly obvious breadcrumbs. Said someone still does not get it; to make matters worse, that someone's questions seem to lead to a two-pronged fork in the road, and the road signs read: "<- LYNCH" and "MODKILL ->". Forget your read of that someone. How angry do you get?

That was me in my argument with LlamaFluff in a nutshell. In fact, I nearly swore him out for it, but I decided I didn't want a repeat of like 4 other games where I did something like that, so I just stewed about it instead. As for everything else, it's been typical Equinox, so I don't know why you think I've been acting so differently.

What's to disagree with here? You guys didn't give a reason yet.

Right. I didn't outright say the reason behind the vote; I think I was expecting too much of teams, since I thought everyone would be super awesome and cohesive, which would have meant plenty of communication and a lot of eyes to catch something that was, to us, really major. Anyway, I thought by that point Thor665* and I had made it clear it wasn't an RVS wagon, so watching people sheep on mith FOR PURE LULZ AND NOTHING ELSE really rubbed me as a scummy RVS wagon to counter a wagon that was 1) not RVS and 2) on someone I strongly believed to be scum at the time (now hold that thought).

* = I read later that Thor665 voted SocioPath for his "/conform" post and not That Thing, which means what I said above no longer applies. That is still the thought process I had at the time.

Contesting your town read of her is one of many bad bad things she posted.

Why should I not contest DrippingGoofball's town read of me? For one thing, DrippingGoofball has stated herself that she has difficulties reading me; the closest approximation I can make to what she said without diving into the original thread itself (In the Court of the Gods, if you're interested) is: "I've won games as obvtown scum before," and that was in response to people yelling at her that I was obvtown.

Therefore, when she suddenly proclaimed me as obvtown for things like activity and "jumping right in" -- both things that made me extremely obvtown in Court -- that sent up red flags.

Weak, weak, weak. If it wasn't a scum tell you could talk about, THEN YOU SHOULDN'T MENTION IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Why? Because it gives scum perfect excuse to semi seriously wagon someone for top secret reasons. Now I have no clue if your push on Pie was legit or what, all I have is you talking down to people “who don't get it” and you now completely ignoring the info generated from your “gambit”.

Keep in mind that I seriously thought InflatablePie was scum at that point. I've given my reasons for giving hints above, so I won't go into it again; however, I expected LlamaFluff to catch my drift after my third or fourth try, and him continuing to egg me to go straight for the modkill was NOT how I was planning on spending my evening. Whether or not he was doing that intentionally, I don't know; I don't want to think that he did, so I'm left with an argument that went sour and was too emotionally-charged for me to get a proper read from it.

But that does remind me Post 80 is extremely gloatly.

We've been doing a lot of team hunting since pre-game to get as many reads and potential wagons as possible, and we pegged Chris B as town weeks before the game started. ...so yeah, I'm probably really gloaty.

I actually don't think she was defending [Chris B] either. The gloating was too rich and natural for that.

Oh, but I was.

Next in the series: Chris B

[Equinox]

EBWOP: My read of Sotty7 at the moment leans town. I'll dive into context a bit and then explain its relevancy here: Out of the games I've played with Sotty7, there were (I think) two games where she incorrectly read me, and both of those times resulted in emotional explosions on my part. Sotty7-scum can very easily end my usefulness to a town by getting me riled up, and she had an avenue to do so when I accessed the site during my V/LA. Instead, her posts were aimed at sussing out my alignment. She's wrong, unfortunately, but either that gets fixed as time goes on or she finds out from TheButtonmen.

Call that buddying if you want, but that's my read of her.

Off to fire off another response, and then I continue catching up.

[TheButtonmen]

D1VC4:

Socio (3): DGB, Equinox, Klazam
DGB (2): Socio, Thor
DH (2): mith, IP
Klazam (1): LlamaFluff
Equinow (1): ChrisB
Llamarble (1): Sotty
Sotty7 (1): Llamarble
LlamaFluff (1): DH

Not Voting: Sevei

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.