Mafia MetaMafia ~ Game Over!

[sottyrulez]

(Should actually bump Demonic up my OTHERS list thinking about it.)

Does this mean you're moving him up or down the scum meter?

Less likely scum. Wasn't clear enough on that before, sorry.

[Demonic Angel]

Actually no, not really. The vig's thus far have proven that they at least have a brain.

Putting quadz and hito on a scum list with town ray and plum does not equate to "bussing your entire scum team" ..

The fuck you talking about?
And where the fuck did townplum and townray come from? Both of us have called Plum scum.

Not to mention, that statement you didn't quote but are responding to was a response to sotty not you.

[Zachrulez]

Call it a gut feeling coupled with the fact that there seemed to be a lot more interest in VP's "slip" than in yours and it leaves me feeling a bit uneasy about your slot.

Good news is if you're actually town, it's possible we'll run out of scum to lynch long before we get to a point of actually wanting to lynch you.

Illuminate me about DA's slip.

Answered this already on day 2.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3036078

[sottyrulez]

Call it a gut feeling coupled with the fact that there seemed to be a lot more interest in VP's "slip" than in yours and it leaves me feeling a bit uneasy about your slot.

Good news is if you're actually town, it's possible we'll run out of scum to lynch long before we get to a point of actually wanting to lynch you.

Illuminate me about DA's slip.

Answered this already on day 2.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p3036078

[MagnaofIllusion]

The method and style of his play in the way he went after quadz seems consistent from what I expect from VP town.

You are going to have to expand on this because it makes no sense. Look at the following post and look at VPB’s ISO from Day 1 (0-30).

Specifically read the post where he drops his vote on Quadz. He doesn’t express any significant suspicion of Quadz at all … in fact he directly suggests plays by Nicki Minaj that are strongly scummy but comes to a null opinion on them. His sole concern for Quadz was “is he this defensive as Town?”.

Then read the rest of his ISO for Day 1. Count the times he calls Quadz scummy, questions him about his play or specific scum-tells, or tries to determine his alignment through analysis. You can use one hand because those events are non-existant.

If you can explain how this makes solid sense as Town scum-hunting as opposed to lazy bussing I’d like to know.

[Magua]

As has been pointed out by a few others, I was referring to Demonic Angel's ISO 40.

Missed that. "Every other townray game"?

Mmmm. I completely read over it when I read it, reading the meaning as intended, I suppose. Odd slip for a scum to make -- DA is trying to say that RayFrost isn't playing like he normally does when he's town. Still think DA is town.

Look at this from my perspective.

You: Voting VP
Plum: Voting VP
Magna: Voting VP

You know what you all have in common? You were all opposed to the quadz wagon to some degree.

Yes. In fact, you could get all the people who weren't on quadz D2 and are still alive:

RayFrost
MagnaofIllusion
Plum
Magua
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Nobody Special

How many scum do you think are in this group? I mean, if no one was bussing quadz, then game is pretty much won, yes? Do you think that's the case?

However, singersigner doesn't strike me as the eager busser type, and singersigner was on quadz's lynch D1. I think that only occurs if SS is being told to do it, or is following previous bussers at a distance.

[Faraday]

I guess I can't really see any real downside to a massclaim at this point. I think I've got a pretty comprehensive townlist at this point to where I'm pretty confident in lynching everyone who's not on it.

Yeah, but the last time I saw a town list and a massclaim they got eaten alive, in Storm. For example if they'd not massclaimed the doctor would have stayed alive and been pretty much another confirmed townie later on.

+ I mean the townlist are probably all town anyway, giving the scum an order to shoot them in (in terms of role priority) seems kinda unneeded.

Get good vibes from a Magua post a bit back, the viggish one.
Don't see Kats scum here at all, at all.

Plum still needs rope.

[Demonic Angel]

As has been pointed out by a few others, I was referring to Demonic Angel's ISO 40.

Missed that. "Every other townray game"?

Mmmm. I completely read over it when I read it, reading the meaning as intended, I suppose. Odd slip for a scum to make -- DA is trying to say that RayFrost isn't playing like he normally does when he's town. Still think DA is town.

Misinterpreted by sottyzach due to my language skills and ambiguity of english language. Fate already explained the said "slip". I'll dig out the specific post later.

[Plum]

For what this is worth, given that my school computer has allowed me access to the past few pages mostly in the form of ISO power and translating back and forth from Chinese in Babelfish, I'm going to get done what I can - laying out the case for VPB having scumslipped about Daytalk. While it is not conclusive it initially struck me as exactly like a scumslip in a recently ended game. So.

Guuysss guyss, Andy is Town. I srsly doubt Andyscum would make a mistake like that.

Especially with daytalk

. I find Andyscum to be meticulous. Quorrath gets a big FoS for his vote.

In this game the provided Role PMs seemed to imply that the scum only had Nighttalk (as scum with Daytalk it wasn't immediately obvious, without a full read of the flavor-heavy PMs, that the Mod was unintentionally ambiguous or misleading at best, and it was not unnatural to simply assume that because we had Daytalk it was written outright in the sample Role PMs and that therefore it would be information easily and naturally available to a Townie. It wasn't, and VV got burned).

@Ray - It makes no sense for you to have not found the thread for so long if you were scum because your role PM would have had a scum daytalk QT link and your buddies would have told you to post before you did.

In this game the Mod stated outright that the scum might or might not have Daytalk but she (he?) wouldn't be saying.

Both VV there and VPB here took the existence of Daytalk (which would be obvious to a scum member and without close reading might not be clear to be information the Town wouldn't have access to) as a given, and further used that given to base a Townread on someone - eh, scum have Daytalk, they wouldn't do X with Daytalk, so this dude who did X is Town.

Preview Edit: Farside especially I would really appreciate a willingness to interact with me (I sort of know where Sotty's coming from and want to discuss that too but yeah). Seriously man. Sotty, I'd be checking the DA slip against this right now but DA's ISO isn't working for me. Fate weights the phrase limit like nothing else, it seems - but as far as I can see without the full context I'm unimpressed. I've seen so-called scumslips where the guy does worse than possibly implying he knows a guy is Town here; they've said things that imply they're scum in the game itself. And it's been Town mistakes. VPB's sort of slip is one which not only references a piece of information scum only would have at the point it was made but uses is directly and concretely in making reads (as opposed to making meta references, which I think is what DA was doing at the time, yeah?). In any case, as far as I can see whatever DA did and VPB's apparent slip are very different beasts and VPB's deserves extreme consideration.

[VP Baltar]

Hint hint: I won't be lynched today.

Also, Plum, is that supposed slip really the best scumhunting you have in this entire game. Seriously?

@Faraday - would you like my N2 action or not?

[ooba]

@Plum: Farside ?

@VP: You've hinted at it. May as well claim the particular night action.

[sottyrulez]

@Plum: I find DA's slip scummier if we're going to nitpick at things like that, but the reality of it is that true scumslips aren't as common as people sometimes make it out to be. I could see DA's as poor wording, and VP's as making an assumption based on mod meta. (Being that to my knowledge Vi likes scum daytalk a lot.)

[Plum]

I meant Faraday. Dammit.

VPB - I did some decent work Parama-hunting but it looks less probable given the new flips (especiaklly Hito's). I did some Singer-hunting, and that did pan out give-or-take; I hunted Quadz mostly by the scumminess of his claim. Having such a slip from you, I was prompted to look through our flipped Tigers and see how probable certain potential buddies were. For the reasons I discussed last night, yiou seemed both a reasonable likely buddy based on name mentions and interactions by the flipped scum and reasonably likely scum on your own given the slip from yesterday. As I described above, I believe it does carry quite a lot of weight and even if it's not fancy scumhunting I certainly think it's

good

scumhunting. I think on its own it's a very decent reason to believe you're fairly likely scum and a very good lynch; I have seen most of MoI's attacks on you today but not in context and will say for now only that they look decent and supportive of the chances of VPB-scum without full context.

But yeah, the slip? Because I saw basically the exact same thing happen to scum, point for point, and can follow the mistakes in it which indicate scum-mistake and scum-behavior in both VV's slip from Open 298 and your slip in this game, yeah. I do think that in conjunction with strong circumstantial evidence from the flipped scums' words that you very well may be scum this is a very strong piece of scumhunting. And hell, you're going to argue that your own case on me is much shinier? That any of your cases so far were bastions of what looked like best scumhunting?

PREVIEW EDIT: Yeah, Sotty, I agree true scumslips are fairly rare - but because VPB's mirrors exactly the scum mindset and behavior of scum-VV, being that it's something I see and can show concretely that scum have screwed up over [io]because they're scum[/i] I feel it's worth looking at.

[Faraday]

@Faraday - would you like my N2 action or not?

If you are what I think you are I think I love you, more than ever before.

[Faraday]

(that's a no, from me)

[Seraphim]

I need to read through this some more, but I have a feeling that Magua vs VP is town-on-town and that Magua should bring up reasonable doubt before forcing VP to claim.

Massclaim is a BAD IDEA right now. The only possible gain is attributing kills and in such a vig-heavy game, there is no need of that. The only thing I could see us claiming is domains or what domains should be worshiped tonight. Coordinating worships is going to become important later on. Also, I know there was a lot of talk about alignment on Day 1, in regards to Nicki's role...does anyone have any additional insight into that? I feel like it's important but it hasn't really been discussed.

MoI looks like super, super scum in his fight with VP. I see no reason that VP is scum at this juncture...SK, possibly, but not scum. All the players jumping on him looks really suspect. Keeping my vote on Plum for the moment, however.

[Plum]

MoI looks like super, super scum in his fight with VP. I see no reason that VP is scum at this juncture...SK, possibly, but not scum. All the players jumping on him looks really suspect. Keeping my vote on Plum for the moment, however.

Sure. Why? (Pardon me for your ISO function malfunctioning where I'm at if necessary)

[Magua]

I need to read through this some more, but I have a feeling that Magua vs VP is town-on-town and that Magua should bring up reasonable doubt before forcing VP to claim.

If you think I am town, then you have to conclude that I feel I have a reasonable reason to have VP claim.

Massclaim is a BAD IDEA right now. The only possible gain is attributing kills and in such a vig-heavy game, there is no need of that. The only thing I could see us claiming is domains or what domains should be worshiped tonight. Coordinating worships is going to become important later on. Also, I know there was a lot of talk about alignment on Day 1, in regards to Nicki's role...does anyone have any additional insight into that? I feel like it's important but it hasn't really been discussed.

Alignment claim is a terrible idea because it doesn't help town at all, and it is highly likely that a number of scum powers are alignment-conditional. Full domain claim is similarly a terrible idea. People should just say which domain or domains (preferably, single domain) they want people to worship.

[Seraphim]

MoI looks like super, super scum in his fight with VP. I see no reason that VP is scum at this juncture...SK, possibly, but not scum. All the players jumping on him looks really suspect. Keeping my vote on Plum for the moment, however.

Sure. Why? (Pardon me for your ISO function malfunctioning where I'm at if necessary)

Gut, for now. We got robbed out of a day of lynches, basically...it feels like day 2 today and I think wagoning based on gut isn't too bad at this juncture.

If you think I am town, then you have to conclude that I feel I have a reasonable reason to have VP claim.

That's the thing: I don't trust you. Plus, if it is town-on-town, you've just outed yourself and VP. I think you need to outline your reasoning or at least vaguely hint at it or something.

Hmmmm.

I'm trying to think currently.

I never said alignment claim, merely some sort of insight into what alignment is supposed to do. I feel like it's important and anyone with information in that regard which might be useful later should claim it. But mass-claiming alignment doesn't help at all.

[VP Baltar]

Meh, I think Magua is town out of the quadz backers, so I'd like to prob straighten out whatever BS he's confused about. Let me just be clear, by N2 you mean last night correct? Not the second night N1. The problem with me claiming is that you need to out yourself after because I'm not simply going to let you force a claim and not provide damn good reasoning as to why you requested it.

[Seraphim]

I think Magua isn't lying because, if I'm correct, scum CANNOT afford 1v1 at this point.

But is VP scum or not?

VP, do you have any idea why he would want you to claim your N2 action?

[VP Baltar]

I honestly don't have any clue why he'd want that claim. That's why I was asking him earlier to give me some sort of private insight that only I would understand as to why he would want that. He won't provide it and that's making me torn about it. I totally agree that scum wouldn't want to go 1v1 at this point.

[Magua]

That's the thing: I don't trust you. Plus, if it is town-on-town, you've just outed yourself and VP. I think you need to outline your reasoning or at least vaguely hint at it or something.

If you don't trust me, it's hard to believe you find this to be town on town.

As for "outting myself", I have outted that I have a cast, that it is investigative in nature, that I used it on VPB, and that what I got back is incriminating.

Whoop-de-shit.

Obviously, my report is not 100% incriminating by itself, or I would've just outted it rather than asking. It is only incriminating if VPB's claim disagrees with it.

Meh, I think Magua is town out of the quadz backers, so I'd like to prob straighten out whatever BS he's confused about. Let me just be clear, by N2 you mean last night correct? Not the second night N1. The problem with me claiming is that you need to out yourself after because I'm not simply going to let you force a claim and not provide damn good reasoning as to why you requested it.

Yes. N2. Last night. Not N1.

[Faraday]

Eh, actually maybe just clear it up so we can stop the distractions from lynches on actual scum.

Not sure magua needs to out himself, if he buys your explanation I'm happy to back off both of you for the moment and revisit it later.

[Seraphim]

Do you want who he targeted last night or what cast he used last night or a combination of the two?