Mafia MetaMafia ~ Game Over!

[ooba]

@Sera, I really don't think it was to get AlGM lynched (that wasn't going to happen anyway) - If you have NS as your scum partner and AlGM chose a different target, then I pretty much would do what they did - Just drop that association there to be used later in case NS is lynched\vigged ..

(I could see them doing the same if AlGM was a scum partner who had that power - Let AlGM choose a different target than NS - then associate AlGM\NS so that you can lynch NS later in case AlGM is lynched\vigged .. In fact hito saying "NS policy" is a point for this .. But AlGM's arguing looked like it came from town)

@Faraday, it wasn't the fact that he mentioned NS which I have a problem with. It was hito going after AlGM when he was clearly town .. And that statement from singer was odd and out of place ..

---

P-edit: VPB, I clearly mention that it's from Poe there. I have town reads on everyone above you in that list. And I've listed that as a reason for you not being scum (hence Against) - which is why you find yourself at the top of that list.

---

Although I have a bad history of reading Plum in games of mine, gut tells me she is not a tiger this game. Plum is not the way to go today ..

[ooba]

Also, while I remember, seems to me like the setup could be something like 5 Tigers, 1 Tarhalindur, lots of town vigs. Just my thoughts.

I would guess its 6+1 SK. And I still stick by my earlier statement that 6 scum in the same team coordinating worship together would be too powerful. Now, I am guessing it is a single Mafia faction of 6 tigers but split into two groups of 3.

And they say there's a kernel of truth to every lie and Quadz might not have been lying when he said he neighbor-ized singer. After all if it is two groups of three, you'd expect scum to have some neighborizing powers to get in contact with the other team.

[VP Baltar]

ooba - I think we're far along enough in the game that it's time to stop relying on gut reads because your gut doesn't look very accurate to me. For instance, Ray and Plum look really terrible after all the scum flips that have happened. Even Magua deserves some serious consideration since we've seen the scum were making a concerted effort to save quadz (for what reason, I can't even tell). Perhaps they faithed him up for some power move. He said he had checked N0 if he could stockpile faith, which makes me think that he might have been powered up for a super kill or something.

Anyhow, tl;dr, we can do much better than gut at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, I had also considered the split scenario..which is what Vi did in MoHo and MoCo. The scum could have had some sort of faith powers to merge their groups. If they are split, it could explain the scum trying so hard to save quadz. They may have genuinely believed he was town and were banking on towncred from it. I've made that mistake as scum before (right Zach?)

Also, it's good to see Sottyrulez is town this game. Now we can crack some skulls together.

[ooba]

Anyhow, tl;dr, we can do much better than gut at this point.

This is a game of intuition - at the end of the day, you might build a big case-wall post but doesn't change the fact that everything stems from gut.

Do you see scum going "All eggs in one basket?" and using the entire team to protect Quadz. Whatever his power may be - scum wouldn't risk committing the entire team so that they can save one.

---

One of MoI and VV is probably scum, but I'm leaning the latter in this case.

Also what happened to this? MoI was already on your scumdar and did not vote Quadz. VV flipped town too.

[RayFrost]

I think that the stuff regarding being split apart makes sense, especially considering that the hard-defense by hito really doesn't make sense if they knew about each other: bus hard those you feel are going to die in your team. That's the only way to play.

By the by, I don't follow the VP hate. I really can't see VP-scum pushing extremely hard on

three separate tigers

to the extent he did. I

guess

I could see VP-SK, but I don't see any arguments for that, so it's moot.

[VP Baltar]

Also what happened to this? MoI was already on your scumdar and did not vote Quadz. VV flipped town too.

Yeah. I'm internally debating if his quadz defense is legit or not. Don't forget that I pointed out his thread dodging yesterday (which everyone ignored). He's certainly a scum suspect for me. I could see lynching him today possibly.

[VP Baltar]

Do you see scum going "All eggs in one basket?" and using the entire team to protect Quadz. Whatever his power may be - scum wouldn't risk committing the entire team so that they can save one.

To me it depends on if they uber-powered him initially. The split scumteams probably makes more sense, but it's still a possibility that they were trying to power him up and didn't expect the shortened battery/super push on him after the mothrax kill.

[RayFrost]

Hey VP.

Is my parama vote getting on your nerves because it's blatant omgus that's admitted or because I id it without commenting on anything else? I'm feeling a bit lazy right now, so I don't feel like thinking over which it could be.

[RayFrost]

Also: varied kill flavors = kill flavors unique to scum members, methinks. Just random speculation there. And there is nothing unusual about there being 4 kills instead of 3. Speculation as well.

[VP Baltar]

I think there are better places to vote than Parama. We have three Tigers dead and I'd like to see some analysis from you regarding that. If you're lazy now, that's cool, but I'd like to see a post when you're not. Basically, you were in the group saying quadz couldn't be scum yesterday when his actions were so obv. scum. I particularly don't like that from you because I trust your scum hunting gut calls like I trust Amished's. So, I need you to either reassure me you're town here (which Parama vote isn't doing) or die a fiery death.

[RayFrost]

Well, I have a bias that makes me want plum to stay alive. One I don't want to delve into.

To be honest, I'm finding it difficult to analyze things when there was the push on quadz and then two tiger kills. I just highly doubt the mod would allow scum cross kills, and I could account for one with a SK, but that would require at least two town vig abilities. That said, I can't tell which would be which, as kill flavors lack any consistency.

I still really dislike DA, but I'm on the fence regarding it being the fact katsuki's just a bad player or katsuki being scum this game. Fate's a hard person for me to read despite my siable games with him because his meta is so completely artificial. Everything in me screams they are scum, but I can't find myself really wanting to fight it out in thread. The thought of engaging in a huge fight with fate just makes me want to replace out now. Dealing with him is

hellish

.

With other players like faraday and parama, I just can't read them. They provide virtually nothing, but faraday pushed for scum and parama's... parama. I've played with him before, and he feels town. That doesn't make my aggravation with him any less as he seems to be deliberately trying to minimize his usefulness for who knows what reason. I've seen parama make cases. He's not doing that here, so I really want to at least see his case on me to know he's actually doing something here and not just blowing smoke up my ass.

With AGM, he's null through and through because I don't feel he's really given me much to go off of.

NS needs to post, magua seems town, sotty seems town, seraphim seems town, and MoI I forget my read on right now. DDD needs to post moar before I feel like I can say something either way.

Note that I wrote this while looking at the opening post. I may end up iso-ing DDD / MoI at some point, but I don't feel like it right now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lol, you fucking mad? I was pushing quadz lynch since the game started.

Let’s examine this statement, shall we.

Day 1 play of VPB regarding Quadz

–

Votes for Quadz in ISO 0 (first post). Read that post. He devotes much more attention to Nicki Minaj than Quadz. His ‘main reason’ that bugged him about quadz was his defensiveness. Specifically asks “Does he always play defensively like this when he’s town?”

Yet he drops the vote on quadz.

His next direct mention of quadz is ISO 13. Before then his ISO contains discussion with me and Sotty, questioning AGM about his ‘Policy Lynch’, calling obv-Town Gamma Town. In ISO 13 he answers Faraday’s question seeking to clarify his question about quadz in ISO 0 and then says he’ll stop posting “for the sake of the Town”.

Next direct mention is ISO 16 where he wants to know why Singer isn’t voting quadz. Here is said ISO -

I want to know why singer isn't voting quadz...the person she can read like a book and thinks is scum

Very, very soft suggestion that Singer is scummy for this.

Next mention of quadz is ISO 29 where he answers an accusation from quadz saying that he (VPB) was not waffling.

Day ends at ISO 30. Read for yourself but his entire Day 1 isn’t pushing quadz. He dropped a vote on him and mentioned him at all the rest of the Day. No pressure at all.

Day 2 play of VPB regarding Quadz

–

Votes Quadz immediately Day 2 calling him obv-scum. This is a stark contrast to his Day 1 play. If anything it looks like an over-reaction to Mothrax’s modkill which cut Day 1 short before VPB could establish ‘cred’ for his quadz vote by expressing actual suspicion.

re:quadz - a fairly explicit case was laid out by Seraphim yesterday, but I really don't see how anyone can not see pretty much everything he posts as scummy. From his obsessive self defense to that horribad "case" he made on DDD...give me a break.

Note the piggy-backing on Seraphim’s case as a way to avoid the fact he didn’t push quadz at all. Also smells completely of pre-knowledge that quadz was scum. Aka bussing.

He then proceeds to call out others regarding their play regarding quadz before a confirmed flip.

re: quadz - if you felt that strongly about his wagon, you certainly didn't seem to be doing a lot to try to stop it yesterday.

I wanted to highlight this snippet from ISO 48. Note that he’s attacking me for not defending quadz strongly Day 1. Yet despite his Day 2 “Quadz is Obv-scum” stance his ISO shows he did absolutely nothing to push quadz Day1. Inconsistency.

He does have a small interaction with quadz at ISO 51 but mostly spends his time questioning others about their quadz intereactions as opposed to strongly pushing the lynch.

TL – DR

: This is hardly “strong pushing” of quadz. He dropped a vote on him Day 1 and left it there with no quadz interaction. Came out Day 2 saying quadz was obv-scum and has been wanting to ride that position since.

I fucking called singer out for her avoidance of the wagon. I called hito as scum since a long time ago. I guess I have to lynch the entire team to be town. You're crazy. I like you, but you're crazy.

I’ve already quoted your ‘call out’ of Singer from ISO 16. It’s about as soft a call-out as you can get. Let’s look at your other quotes surrounding Singer and hito –

Well, he hasn't posted anything else, so her reads have no reason to change...or not be voting.

This is in regards to Singer not voting quadz. Again, no mention that she is scummy. Just soft positioning.

If parama flips scum, hito should be lynched next probs.

Says hito should be lynched IF Parama flips scum. More soft suspicion that he can back away from the minute Parama flips Town.

I think hito and Plum look pretty damn scummy and I'd be willing to lynch them after quadz is dead. Signer I'm up in the air on because I kind of feel like she is paying lip service to the quadz wagon after it got serious backing.

Says hito is scum and he would lynch him. Note the soft position on Signer. Now think about the upcoming Neighborizor claim regarding quadz.

Also with singer, I didn't like how hard she was trying to discredit people calling mothrax town.

More soft positioning. He doesn’t call her scummy for it … just says he doesn’t like it. Perfect language to move of it (“I said I didn’t like not that she was scummy”) if things move away from Singer-as-scum but to point to and say “I was suspicious” if she ever flips.

Anyhow, re: hito - his play is pretty empty so far other than some rambly strategy talk that made little sense, a weird push on AGM that turned into backing off later and avoidance of lynching quadz, who is scum.

Most solid suspicion of either hito or Singer thus far.

Has a solid interaction with hito at ISO 51 and 52.

Why is signer posting without voting?

Again another very open statement that can be used to go either way if he needs to attack Singer or absolve her.

TL - DR:

The hito suspicion looks much more credible than the Singer suspicion. The words scummy or scum never appear in any of VPB's statements on Singer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m going to have to re-read Plum. And I want to re-read Katsuki / DA in context of all three flipped scum. My gut now is to vote VPB.

[RayFrost]

I think there are better places to vote than Parama. We have three Tigers dead and I'd like to see some analysis from you regarding that. If you're lazy now, that's cool, but I'd like to see a post when you're not. Basically, you were in the group saying quadz couldn't be scum yesterday when his actions were so obv. scum. I particularly don't like that from you because I trust your scum hunting gut calls like I trust Amished's. So, I need you to either reassure me you're town here (which Parama vote isn't doing) or die a fiery death.

I didn't say he couldn't be, I just failed to see any logic behind the push on him. I felt he was town, and I didn't see people making an argument for otherwise that was different from "cuz he's scum. duh."

Contrary to popular opinion, RayFrost can't read minds to understand the logic behind things he disagrees with.

Parama's actually a good place to vote for the time being.

I'm flattered by the comparison to Amished, but keep in mind that my strength lies in m scum play, not my town play. My town play is thoroughly mediocre in results and efficacy.

[Faraday]

Wait I don't get this mutltiple scumfaction thing? What? Hito and Quadz both flipped TIGER, thus they're in the same faction. Hito was defending his scumbuddy on the basis his claim made sense, when it clearly fucking didn't.

[Faraday]

With other players like faraday and parama, I just can't read them. They provide virtually nothing

what the fuck is this shit

[VP Baltar]

I’m going to have to re-read Plum. And I want to re-read Katsuki / DA in context of all three flipped scum. My gut now is to vote VPB.

lol, well that basically confirms you as scum right there. You of all people should be hailing me as town right now since I fucking pwned you yesterday. You're not this dumb.

Unvote, Vote:MoI

[VP Baltar]

I'm flattered by the comparison to Amished, but keep in mind that my strength lies in m scum play, not my town play. My town play is thoroughly mediocre in results and efficacy.

And when I was scum with you in MoCo you said the opposite didn't you? I don't get it.

[RayFrost]

With other players like faraday and parama, I just can't read them. They provide virtually nothing

what the fuck is this shit

You've got 141451242 one liners, but I hardly think that gems like these:

Stop interfering with my attempts to role-fish, Faraday.

Seriously, there is a reason I'm asking this question.

I asked mine for a reason too.

Oh come now. Everyone makes mistakes. That's a relief though.

No reason to believe you'd lie about the mix-up. Thus your vote is no longer scummy.

Although I guess I don't see Mina-scum asking the question about Evil Aligned players. But then your refusing to answer my question is scummy. I dunno.

Show the hit and miss quality of your posts. There's a splice of "not saying a fucking thing" and "says something" but none of it has any sort of oomph to it that makes me feel like I can read it as something other than null.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lol, well that basically confirms you as scum right there. You of all people should be hailing me as town right now since I fucking pwned you yesterday. You're not this dumb.

Unvote, Vote:MoI

Yeah, that's what I expected. No mention of me as scum today until you "MoI or VV" is scum statement is brought up.

Nothing to say at all about the content of my post showing you hardly pressed at all on Quadz or Singer.

Just a "LULZ HE'S SCUMZ FOR SUSPECTING ME".

Not a Town reaction.

I'll still be doing me re-reads as I just stated because that's what Town does.

[Faraday]

Hito's wall posting follows a very distinct style that I've got moderate meta for (he does it as both town and scum, but... there are differences). His style of posting here is actually a town level of clarity and confidence. His desire to dive into the setup speculation also reads town: this is one of his habits, though I don't know if it's a town and scum habit.

^^^^ literally the worst reason to call someone town. it's based on an apparent love of set-up speculation (lol? why is that townie for ANYONE?). what in particular made you so sure hito was town, ray?

[RayFrost]

I'm flattered by the comparison to Amished, but keep in mind that my strength lies in m scum play, not my town play. My town play is thoroughly mediocre in results and efficacy.

And when I was scum with you in MoCo you said the opposite didn't you? I don't get it.

That was before MoCo. This is after.

It's also after the newbie game I got (slightly unjustly) nom'd for.

It's also after hydra mafia.

[Faraday]

Show the hit and miss quality of your posts. There's a splice of "not saying a fucking thing" and "says something" but none of it has any sort of oomph to it that makes me feel like I can read it as something other than null.

that's 3/idk how many one liners, and the nicki minaj point was valid, so I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

i'm done with you, you can die after plum.

[VP Baltar]

Wait I don't get this mutltiple scumfaction thing? What? Hito and Quadz both flipped TIGER, thus they're in the same faction. Hito was defending his scumbuddy on the basis his claim made sense, when it clearly fucking didn't.

It's not multiple scum factions, it's one scum faction that is split into two smaller groups who do not know each other. Vi used this tactic in Mafia of Holy Orders and Mafia of the Chosen Ones. The scum groups in those games had to spend faith points to be united as a single group.

@MoI - idgaf if you like my vote or not. You are scum for a bullshit push on me. See, what scum don't realize 99% of the time is that even if you see people saying "hurr der, I'm suspicious of VPB" there isn't a realistic chance of my wagon happening when I'm town. I nailed three fucking scum to the wall in two days. But you saw a few people mention my name in unkindly ways because they're not thinking and you thought 'oh hey, here's my chance at a mislynch that isn't my buddy Plum and/or Ray' Like I said, if you were town, you'd be apologizing to me after you got your ass handed to you on the quadz issue yesterday. Instead you bit at what you thought was a potential wagon and outted yourself. Now you'll try to wall and demand reasoning for your lynch. Not gonna happen brotha, so I'd save my breath if I was you.

@Faraday - MoI just outted himself as scum, your thoughts?