Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Zindaras]

I'm not saying Vezok is confirmed town in my eyes, but he deserves a fair chance at playing the game.

He had a fair chance at playing the game. Then he claimed vanilla. Once you jump out of a plane without a parachute, you probably aren't going to win the competitive skydiver's competition.

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the actual moves are done before you open the parachute. So he'd have a okay chance at winning the competition. He'd crash to an untimely death afterwards, but he could still win. And I think Vezok is the same way. I don't think he'll get to endgame. But he is not useless.

Also, Yossy, are you seriously saying that a Vanilla on the chopping block shouldn't claim? I really hope I'm misinterpreting that.

Absolutly. A vanilla at lynch -1 should refuse to claim and just keep defending himself. The last time I claimed vanilla under any circumstances was about 4 years ago, and that was only because someone had claimed tracker and had claimed he saw me go somewhere when I couldn't have done so.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. If vanillas don't claim when they're on the block, then not claiming on the block becomes essentially the same as claiming vanilla. Considering the fact that your entire anti-vanilla claim theory is based on the fact that vanillas keep the PR-pool larger, them not claiming on the block doesn't actually help your theory one bit because PRs

will

claim when they're on the block.

This post is more useful than any post made by half the players in the thread. Half the people on both the Vezzy- and the Furry-wagon are hiding behind a policy shield.

This means that they're essentially throwing away Day One completely.

The Vanilla-claim policy voters are slightly better than the VI policy voters in this, but the overall result is still pathetic.

ORLY.

Last I checked, having any sort of flip and analysis of wagons related to that flip is VERY good for town. Get

your

head out of your ass, realize this is a large game, stop fooling yourself into thinking you're good enough to find scum on D1, and do something that's actually beneficial to town.

Unless we're at risk of lynching a PR, can you tell me why you have a problem with a policy lynch on D1 in a large game? Even now it's generated plenty of discussion as to who's on what side and supporting which lynch, etc.

1: Oh, yes, that would be good for town. But the problem is that if we'd all play like you, the first 13 posts of the game would have been

Vote: vezok

and he'd be dead by now. That would give us zero information. If Vezok turns up town, tomorrow you'll just hide behind your sad little policy and claim everything is null. So, no, you're not helping us one bit. In fact, and this is the problem I have with policy lynches, you're actively making sure that nobody can get a read on you by claiming policy lynch. And, that, my sticky little ursine, is quite anti-town. The discussion is not generated by people in favour of policy lynches, it's generated by those who are against them.
2: Your attempt at a put-down is quite amusing. I should do something beneficial to town? And discussion is pro-town? But I should shut up and vote vezok? At least attempt to attain some logical consistency.
3: Oh, and I am good enough to find scum Day One in a large game. Quite frankly, it's not that impressive a feat. Here, I'll go through the games for you:
Naruto Mafia: could be mistaken because the posts aren't exactly clear, but the Day 1 lynch does talk about a dead Goon, so that does seem to be one; Bloodbath in Camden: Town. WoW: Town; Gears of War Mafia: Mafia; Dating Show Mafia: Double dayphase, lynched Town first, then Mafia; New Designer Mafia: Mafia; Ocarina of Time Mafia: Town; In the Court of the Gods: Town; SitMOA II: doesn't make any sense but looks like town; Resurgence Mafia: Town; Simpsons Mafia: Town; Cyclic Experimentation Set: Town; Mafia of the Chosen Ones: Town, but has the stench of policy with vezok being on the block. Could be wrong; Square Enix IV: Town; Gorrad's Favorite Fictional Character Mafia: Town; The Return to Liten: Looks like Mafia; Bomb Mafia: Town; Multiple Personality Mafia: Mafia; Last Will Mafia: Town; Lord of the Rings Mafia: Mafia; Zachtown in the Mountains: Double day, first Mafia, then town; Succession Mafia: Town; Mostly Mountainous: Mafia; Spontaneous Bastard Mafia II: Town; Magician's Mafia: Town; Earth's Struggle: Town; Square Enix III: Town; Mafia on Holy Orders: Town; A Clash of Kings: Town; SWN III: Town; Ladies Night: Town; Geezer Mafia: Town; Mad World: Town; Scummers Mafia: Town; Star Wars Mafia: Not Mafia, but still scum; Scummies Invitational: Town, which is funny considering it should be the best players; It's Always Sunny: Town; Harry Potter Mafia: Town; Karma Mafia: Mafia; Rapture Mafia: Mafia; Square Enix I: Town; Go Play in Traffic: Mafia; Werewolf: Not Mafia, still scum;

13 successful lynches, 32 unsuccessful ones. That makes for about a 29% success rate in Day One lynches. I left out a bunch of unclear and weird games but this is still a pretty random dataset from Large Themes only (and, at 45 games, it's not perfect but okay enough for statistical analysis). Not bad for a useless day, eh?

[Zindaras]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

Hug: Internet Stranger

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the actual moves are done before you open the parachute. So he'd have a okay chance at winning the competition. He'd crash to an untimely death afterwards, but he could still win.

Yeah, but odds are he'll be too distracted worrying about his own death.

[Surye]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

[AGar]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

We've only had 1 crapwagon. Thus, he's still right.

[Surye]

I'm not going to vote Vezo simply to "teach him a lesson". That's elitist and jerky. I only vote for people that are scum. My vote isn't an instrument to be used for senseless ideology.

That being said. My vote stays on Surye, I forget who it was, but he pointed out that Surye has been joining every crapwagon we have had. That's a huge scum trait.

LOLOLOLOL. Been on one wagon. My vote has never left Vez. Get your information straight if you're gonna tunnel me all game.

We've only had 1 crapwagon. Thus, he's still right.

Why word it that way unless you're just trying to exaggerate how bad I look from his perspective? Why did he need to do that?

[Toon Fighter]

@Zindaras: was that huge list really necessary?

[Amrun]

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

[Yosarian2]

3: Oh, and I am good enough to find scum Day One in a large game. Quite frankly, it's not that impressive a feat. Here, I'll go through the games for you:

Ok. So who's scum this game, then?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

I agree.

Unvote, vote Zindaras

I am ignoring vezok until there is enough support to lynch him and that's that.

[Furcolow]

unvote;
vote: Zindaras

[Surye]

I love that typing in sentences is part of Hez's case against me. Adorable.
Kison votes me, then asks the V/LA where he is.

Hate hate hate self-votes.

Vote: Furcolow

anti-town and scummy as hell.

[Kison]

"V/LA 6th/7th/8th"

It is May 10th.

[Surye]

"V/LA 6th/7th/8th"

It is May 10th.

Yea, I was over ambitious about monday after vegas.

[LlamaFluff]

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

I agree.

Unvote, vote Zindaras

Please stop voting people who are obviously town. There literally are about 20 better places to put your vote.

[SensFan]

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

I agree.

Unvote, vote Zindaras

Please stop voting people who are obviously town. There literally are about 20 better places to put your vote.

The fact that you keep repeating over and over again that certain people are "obviously town" doesn't actually make it so.

[BrianMcQueso]

{to LlamaFluff}

The fact that you keep repeating over and over again that certain people are "obviously town" doesn't actually make it so.

Agree 100%. It's getting irritating.

---

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

*I'm 90% sure on that, but we haven't had a vote count recently and if I missed a vpte, please forgive.

[Toon Fighter]

I agree, Brian, and that only reinforces my confidence on Furc's wagon

[Zindaras]

Actually, I'm pretty sure most of the actual moves are done before you open the parachute. So he'd have a okay chance at winning the competition. He'd crash to an untimely death afterwards, but he could still win.

Yeah, but odds are he'll be too distracted worrying about his own death.

Well, looking at the game and continuing our already slightly belaboured metaphor, I'd say Vezok would be the skydiver who'd jump out of a plane without a parachute and only notice his mistake when he tries to pull the cord.

@Zindaras: was that huge list really necessary?

When you get statements like this:

Some studies have actually shown town day 1 lynches to be less accurate then random, probably due to scum manipulation.

even the smartest towns usually fail to lynch correctly on day 1 in any case.

Get your head out of your ass, realize this is a large game, stop fooling yourself into thinking you're good enough to find scum on D1

The only thing that nips them in the bud is to actually show data. (also, I am aware that Yosarian also noted a 30% lynch success rate in his posts, but he contradicted that immediately with the first quote) Furthermore, the supposed "uselessness" of Day 1 is one of my pet peeves (the other being WIFOM). Finally, I'm an economist with a love for math and statistics.

So, yes, it was necessary and it is necessary. If only to draw the people huddling behind their policy lynch defenses out of their shells. Which I appear to have done quite nicely.

Zindaras seems to be trying hard to be useful without actually being useful - a common scum tactic.

Name five players that have been more useful than me.

Who will it be? Inactive/lurkers/V/LAs (Primate, CPE, fuzzylightning, Bamboomancer and MrBuddyLee)? Policy lynch enthousiasts (Yosarian, Surye, GummyBear, DeathNote, the one-line post man Albert B. Rampage)? Furcolow? Hyper-aggressive players (Cessy, IS)*? Perhaps you might even have enough sense of humour to name yourself. Or will you just, like Yosarian, ignore what I say and go Socratic on me?

*Note that I do not think lowly of this strategy. It is viable, acceptable and in some ways, useful. However, when most of the town is stuck in the quicksand of policy lynch, it is not very successful at getting them out.

3: Oh, and I am good enough to find scum Day One in a large game. Quite frankly, it's not that impressive a feat. Here, I'll go through the games for you:

Ok. So who's scum this game, then?

I think Surye is scummy. First his Vezok-vote which was horrible bandwagoning, then his Cop-leading plan, and now the random switch to Furcolow out of the blue. Personally, I have my doubts about you. I do not see you as the kind of player who would try to force policy lynches, and certainly not on an imperfect policy (see my previous post on this issue). You'd go a long way at healing that particular rift if you could point out a previous game in which you specifically mentioned and deliberated on the vanilla claim policy. I also find it weird that you switched to Lainy. After defending Vezok as the obvious perfect lynch for the entire day and the only one which is mathematically correct, you suddenly switch to a new wagon on a gut call? You get some brownie points for not switching to another popular wagon but it's still a move that flummoxes me. Furcolow's recent voting patterns showed up as more than a blip on my radar. First a self-vote, then two switches to whatever new wagon sprouted up? I found the original reason for his wagon to be weak at best, but his posts since then have been poor. AGar showed up on my scumradar early in the game for an overeager defense of Vezok which seemed to me like scum trying to earn brownie points.

So my preliminary guesses are Surye, Yosarian, AGar and Furcolow. These are obviously likely to change as we get more and more information, but I think there's more than enough to base a D1 lynch on.

Also, because I just remembered this and honestly can't resist posting it: hey, GummyBear, watch Zindie execute scum Day 1 of a large game! Consulmaker Mafia.

[Yosarian2]

{to LlamaFluff}

The fact that you keep repeating over and over again that certain people are "obviously town" doesn't actually make it so.

Agree 100%. It's getting irritating.

---

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

Wait...if he votes for people who don't have any votes, that's not wagon hopping; if anything, that's wagon starting,

[Yosarian2]

You'd go a long way at healing that particular rift if you could point out a previous game in which you specifically mentioned and deliberated on the vanilla claim policy.

Huh? I've already linked to two earlier games where I used the same policy about lynching people who claim vanilla, my ISO post #14.

Yosarian: Have you ever enforced this "lynch vanilla day one" strategy before? Could you show me where, if so.

(uses mafiascum search function)

Well, I mentioned it here, in this large game:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 5#p2133515

...did you seriously just claim VT when you were nowhere near a lynch?

Did you really miss my long diatribe this game on why it's anti-town for any vanilla townie to ever claim vanilla, under almost any circumstances? And it's especially bad since you weren't in any imminent danger of being lynched?

Generally, once someone claims vanilla, the town pretty much has to either lynch them or vig them.

I then went on to explain the theory a lot more after that point in the game.

It also came up in Battle Mafia:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p1846447

Yeah, I wasn't planning on quicklynching DT today either. But then he claimed vanilla for absolulty no reason. Lol.

Vote:DT Master

You could find a bunch more examples, if you look; sadly the old boards are down right now, but it's an opinion I've had for a long time. You can find stuff on the MD board about it as well.

I also find it weird that you switched to Lainy. After defending Vezok as the obvious perfect lynch for the entire day and the only one which is mathematically correct, you suddenly switch to a new wagon on a gut call?

I've said all along that while Vez is a decent lynch today just because he'd claimed vanilla, that I would be glad to lynch someone else if I thought they were likely to be scum. Vez is a better then random lynch, and it's still one I would still be happy with, but of course the main goal is still to lynch scum. I also said earlier that I would consider lynching TF over Vez. I've certainly never said that Vez is the only logical lynch for today, just that he's a good lynch unless we come up with a better suspect.

Zindy, I think the problem some people have with your play is that for most of your posts, you spend a lot of time discussing why we should schumhunt, but you've spent a lot less time obviously scumhunting yourself. That was why I asked you who you thought the scum was, and I also think it's why some people are voting for you.

[Porochaz]

Im back for a few days, I have a couple of theories, but furcolows votes are bad (all of them) and

[Porochaz]

Im getting pissed with Llama and his obvtown reads. Other than that I hate the submit button being before the preview and I will read up later.

[Zindaras]

{to LlamaFluff}

The fact that you keep repeating over and over again that certain people are "obviously town" doesn't actually make it so.

Agree 100%. It's getting irritating.

---

Furcolow's last three posts were:
1) Voting for himself
2) Voting for Medicated Lain, whom had no votes* before Yos2's post.
3) Votes for Zindaras, whom also had no votes* before ABR's post.

This is blatant wagon-hopping, try to get behind anything that might possibly turn into a wagon.

Wait...if he votes for people who don't have any votes, that's not wagon hopping; if anything, that's wagon starting,

He's the second vote on both Lain and my wagon.

You'd go a long way at healing that particular rift if you could point out a previous game in which you specifically mentioned and deliberated on the vanilla claim policy.

Huh? I've already linked to two earlier games where I used the same policy about lynching people who claim vanilla, my ISO post #14.

My apologies, then. I have honestly missed that post. I will reread the games you posted.

I've said all along that while Vez is a decent lynch today just because he'd claimed vanilla, that I would be glad to lynch someone else if I thought they were likely to be scum. Vez is a better then random lynch, and it's still one I would still be happy with, but of course the main goal is still to lynch scum. I also said earlier that I would consider lynching TF over Vez. I've certainly never said that Vez is the only logical lynch for today, just that he's a good lynch unless we come up with a better suspect.

But where does the Lain-vote come from? Like I said, I think a gut call is not a lot to change a vote over, especially not with everything that's been going on. What about the rest of her posts?

Zindy, I think the problem some people have with your play is that for most of your posts, you spend a lot of time discussing why we should schumhunt, but you've spent a lot less time obviously scumhunting yourself. That was why I asked you who you thought the scum was, and I also think it's why some people are voting for you.

Most of the people I just named I have already discussed earlier. I'm open in my opinions and I have given them about pretty much everything significant that has happened during the game. If you have any requests, I'm more than willing to answer them.

[Medicated Lain]

I'm annoyed that I tried to post earlier, and was logged out during the time I posted and lost it all, but I guess maybe now this will be more concise.

Some things in this post give me a bad gut feeling about Lian. The odd wishy washy position of Vez ("He's not defending himself, but maybe that's somewhat less scummy then I thought, but I think his play is detremental, but perhaps we'll worry about it later") feels scummy. The FOS of Furcolow, with a reluctance to go into detail why, also feels like she's trying to have it both ways on that wagon. She also attacks Agar, doesn't say why she's doing that either. She's trying to say that she wants to lynch Vez, but...gets off the Vez wagon, when it's still one of the largest in the game, because it's "not helping the game"?

unvote
Vote:Medicated Lain

Is it really *that* scummy to look at a situation, and take more factors into account?
1. Saying something about your role that goes against a *fact* is scummy.
2. Not responding in defense feels like a given up state, which is something I don't associate with mafia.

Seriously, you need me to keep repeating over and over, why I find these people suspicious? Look at my past posts, it's there. This game has a ton of content, and the last thing we need is the same things being said over and over by the same people, because we've had a lot of that, myself included(excluding furcolow, whom I've still only had a chance to brief over the situation with, which is why I'm not voting that way). Which is why I'm voting for a new person. Seriously, we have a lot of information on a bunch of people, I showed you who I especially have points against, but you already know why. Right now we face a huge problem that we have a ton of information on many people, and then there are a few that we basically don't have any information at all. We need to either have them replaced, or get them talking. And voting seemed to work in Furcolow's case, so I figured I'd try somewhere else. Seriously Fuzzy, and other non-posters, where the hell are you? Mod are these non posting being replaced?

@kison: bamboomancer is another player with the same problem. I would've voted for him if he came before Fuzzy on the list of players, but for now I figured I'd go through and just choose the first one, we can go by one by one, but the point is, we have nothing to say about these people, and I never like that.

Once I get a better chance to look at things closely again, I'll work on making a real vote.