Fall of the Matrix: Game Over!

[Internet Stranger]

I do like the Furc wagon better than the Vezo wagon, but the reasons brought up on him are rather crappy. Despite that Furc never helps himself anyways. Its very likely that there are scum voting for him already.

Hint: you all should look at the people on furcs wagon for scum.

In the meantime, I'm sticking with Surye.

[SensFan]

I have read the entire thread
ToonFighter provided my defense for me. I haven't been on MafiaScum for the beginning of May. I have had issues in real life which I forgot to inform my moderators of which I am sorry for. I also did not have this game subscribed after I confirmed, so I did not check it from April 29th to May 1st. Big deal. I'm caught up now, and I have a much higher percentage of being a town-aligned-PR than Vezokpiraka's 0%.

Bull. Shit.

I refuse to believe that of your 3 posts, 2 of them happen to come within 4 minutes of someone voting you, but that you're not reading the thread without posting. Bull. Shit.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

[Amrun]

I think vezok's claim is odd, but I am inclined to believe it, because I've played with him before and it looks like something he would do if he was playing as town.

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.

This is the post that originally aroused my suspicion. I basically said my thoughts about it when I voted TF, but as a reprisal:

He does not define what is "scummy" or "contradictory" about what DN said and did not similarly attack Yosarian, instead attacking DN for supposedly repeating something Yosarian has said on the grounds of the content of that (and not sheeping).

Note that the suspicion of DeathNote is not followed by a vote. This post reads very much to me as if ToonFighter was trying to throw out someone as a suspect, but in a fence-sitty way to see if the case would garner support. This behavior ends up being repeated later with mozamis.

Why do people keep calling it a "policy lynch"?

A policy lynch is generally when you lynch someone to try to change their behavior, or to make a point, or something. Lynching a claimed VT isn't a policy lynch, it's a strategic lynch that actively improves the town's odds of winning, all else being equal.

Toon Fighter's post, though, looks pretty odd to me:

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.

I don't at all get what you're trying to say. If you think he was trying to repeat what I said, then why was it "scummy" or "contradictory"? What "mistake" do you think he made, that may more may not have been a "slip", but is "scummy"? What do you want him to clarify?

This post really feels like Toon Fighter is trying to have it both ways about the death note case, trying to attack Death Note and "sound reasonable" at the same time, and I dislike it.

He said we should lynch vez to narrow down the PR list. Well, that IS scummy. But, if we lynched someone OTHER than Vez, we would narrow down the PR list even more than with lynching Vez (assuming he is telling the truth). Therefore, something is wrong with his argument, and it contradicts itself. What he may have meant is to lynch vezok narrow down the scum list or something, but the way it is phrased, it looks scummy to me. I just didn't vote immediately because the game was just starting, but now I am more confident in my opinion of DN. VOTE: DeathNote

I agree with Yosarian's questions and thoughts on Toon Fighter's attacks on DN as quoted here, which he beat me to noting, but TF's response to this is even worse. His answers seem more like he's trying to appease. "Maybe he was... it looks scummy to me." He then places a vote only after he was questioned about the suspicion with a weak explanation of why he wasn't voting before.

I have ISO'd Death Note and I understand his argument, although I don't fully agree with it. He only talks about lynching Vez and not too much else. He seems to be ignoring other players and posts and concentrating only on lynching Vez. He, at the beginning of the day, expressed his intent on lynching him, and he seems to want to do just that, ignoring other suspects and players for the sake of getting a Vez wagon to lynch. The only thing he mentioned not about vezo was about Bamboo's fence-sitting.

So in between this post and the last post I quoted, TF promised to ISO DN. This is the result: more appeasement. He completely abandons his previous attack on DN, which never made any sense, saying he re-read DN and realized that DN's argument made sense after all. However, he doesn't abandon his suspicion of DN. He just finds a new angle, and another bad angle at that. The whole game's conversation was focusing around vezok at the time; DN was not alone in focusing on this issue.

@mozamis: I just ISO'd you and didn't like what I saw. You still maintain a very early vote with nearly no reasoning, you don't have any suspects, you just say you are against a vez lynch and say AGar looks town. You have nearly ZERO content on your posts.

FoS: mozamis

This is a repeat of the original DN behavior: throw out an unspecific attack on a player without a vote.

I just noticed this new attack on Furcolow, and I'm trying to be impartial, but there are evidence that may support his innocence.

1) As you may notice if you search for posts made by him, he didn't post anything* between May 1 and May 6. He may have been V/LA BUT
1b) He never said he'd be V/LA at any point of this game*, supporting the active lurking theory
2) He did show up just in time to answer a vote on him, and he had only made 3 posts before that one

As I am not getting anything satisfactory out of DeathNote (or any more scummy reads) I shall

unvote

and

vote: Furcolow

. Let's see how you act with a little more pressure on you. I want answers.

* He didn't post in any of the games he is playing in, and there are several, and he never said he'd be V/LA in any of them. Interpret that as you may. And yes, I know discussion of other games is frowned upon, but I just had to mention these facts.

This newer post is TERRIBLE. It reeks of distancing. It is a completely unprovoked but extensive defense of Furcolow, accompanied by a total sheeping vote on Furcolow and an abandoning of the previous suspicion on DN and mozamis (now CES, iirc). He even said there were no other scummy candidates besides DN, so much so that he was willing to vote for Furcolow, whom he just presented an elaborate, effort-extensive defense of and professed no conviction that Furc was actually scum with the vote. What happened to his suspicion of mozamis?

It looks to me like a flustered Furc scumbuddy who can't decide whether to distance or defend and decided to both, and in this confusion, forgot whom he had previously professed suspicion of.


More thoughts to come, on other issues.

[Amrun]

@Surye -there is no Vez "situation". A pseudo problem has been created by OTHER PEOPLE. Vez claimed. Cool. Its everyone elses reactions that is the issue.
Apologies if that is what you mean by "Vez situation".

?

He. Claimed. Vanilla.

When someone claims vanilla, generally speaking,, you lynch them, unless you don't want the town to win. Also, pro-town people shouldn't ever claim vanilla, only scum should ever consider doing that kind of thing, because if a pro-town person claims vanilla it hurts his win condition for no reason.

I'm confused about why you're calling that a problem "created by other people" and not by Vez.

This post by Yosarian2 bothered me, but I can't work out if it's scummy or if I just drastically disagree with him on this point of theory.

Yosarian, are you saying that people are really vanilla townies should LIE and claim PR? How in the world is that pro-town?!



About the Furc issue: I have never been in a game with Furc in which he lurked in this manner, as either alignment, so I'm viewing that as a null-tell for the moment. However, the evidence of active lurking is good and does make Furc look bad. The connection with Toon Fighter makes Furc look much worse in my eyes, but it makes far less sense to lynch Furc first, imho. I say we lynch TF and if TF flips scum, we look harder at Furc.

In general, I'd like to see some actual content from Furcolow to help judge his alignment by. As things stand, I'd much rather lynch Toon Fighter, but Furc the active lurker is not the worst lynch for today and I will vote him to achieve a lynch at deadline.

[Surye]

As my sig says, V/LA most of the weekend, I can do posts from my phone tonight on the road, not driving, but i will be limited.

[Furcolow]

So, now that I'm not lurking, you're all going to jump on my bandwagon
great

@BrianMcqeso, would you like for me to talk about how IS made you look like an idiot?
or about how everyone talked about vezokpiraka for ten pages?

I could show you how HezLucky can make a post containing lots of suspicions, then throw down a vote that makes no sense, but what's the point? An eighth to a quarter of the playerlist has done that so far.

The better players in the thread are voting Vezokpiraka. The only people voting me are generally the anal-retentive mathematicians, idiots like Toon, or scum like LlamaFluff

[Amrun]

So Toon posted a defense of you that you claimed was what you were going to say, and yet is an idiot, Furcolow?

[Furcolow]

His post was a great reason not to vote me, then he votes me for "pressure"
He has been generally noobish all game
Read him in iso

[SensFan]

I have read the entire thread
ToonFighter provided my defense for me. I haven't been on MafiaScum for the beginning of May. I have had issues in real life which I forgot to inform my moderators of which I am sorry for. I also did not have this game subscribed after I confirmed, so I did not check it from April 29th to May 1st. Big deal. I'm caught up now, and I have a much higher percentage of being a town-aligned-PR than Vezokpiraka's 0%.

Bull. Shit.

I refuse to believe that of your 3 posts, 2 of them happen to come within 4 minutes of someone voting you, but that you're not reading the thread without posting. Bull. Shit.

Unvote, Vote: Furc

There. Now I should get a response to my post within about 2 minutes.

[Amrun]

People with absolutely no content:

fuzzylightning (has only confirmed)
GummyBear (keeps stalling)

People with almost no content and/or that haven't posted in a long time:

MrBuddyLee
Kison
Furcolow
CES/mozamis
Primate
Medicated Lain
HezLucky
creampuffeater
Bamboomancer


Come on, guys. There is probably at least one scum in this group, but speculation on this front is pointless. This game has 17 pages and relatively low content. STEP IT UP, all of us collectively.


I particularly suspect MBL because I don't think his play thus far has fit his town meta.


p-edit: Furcolow, did you seriously just tell me to ISO Toon Fighter? Are you even reading this game?

[Furcolow]

DeathNote's post was, however, quite scummy, and contradictory. I think he tried to say what Yos said before, but he made a mistake. That may have been just a slip, but it is scummy nonetheless. I think we need his confirmation to what he really meant by that.[/quote]
This post is scummy, and has been highlighted as being scummy previously.
The way it reads is hard to comprehend, though I do agree with DN's post being referenced reading a little contradictory, it is just something he picked out from one of the first few pages... before discussion was even getting off. I didn't view this post as being as scummy as someone else did, but yeah, someone disliked this post.

He then votes DN in his next post, which is all well and good, but he is leaving room to be able to hop on town wagons in a policy lynch on Vezok, or weak FoS in his next few posts...leaving yet another avenue open after he is beginning to see DN isn't going to be wagonned
Then, a day later, he votes me. Big surprise. "Pressure" vote, apparently

guy has 13 posts, and every one feels like it is setting up a chance to jump onto town, in what i feel is an obvious manner
so yes, he is bad at hiding he is scum in my personal opinion

HOWEVER, what appears to be a confirmed vezokpiraka is like a cancer you have to cut out before it begins. If he is actually scum, and unlynchable, just shitting up the thread with vehemence... i'm happy with my vote. If he was a GF and got wrote off as a VT it would end us as a town.

SensFan I don't see anything I need to respond to
lynch me if you all want, I will not claim D1 and I don't care about anyone voting me as there is no case on me. I was inactive and didn't have this topic subscribed. When I got online and saw I was prodded, it was like "Oh, yeah, that game"

[Furcolow]

I have read the entire thread
ToonFighter provided my defense for me. I haven't been on MafiaScum for the beginning of May. I have had issues in real life which I forgot to inform my moderators of which I am sorry for. I also did not have this game subscribed after I confirmed, so I did not check it from April 29th to May 1st. Big deal. I'm caught up now, and I have a much higher percentage of being a town-aligned-PR than Vezokpiraka's 0%.

Bull. Shit.

I refuse to believe that of your 3 posts, 2 of them happen to come within 4 minutes of someone voting you, but that you're not reading the thread without posting. Bull. Shit.

Unvote, Vote: Furc

There. Now I should get a response to my post within about 2 minutes.

Well, yeah, when you post 3 minutes after someone you generally get a response.
I saw your post, and I dismissed it, because you are wrong

[SensFan]

Damnit. 8 minutes; I was off by 4.

[Furcolow]

9.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote Count #4:

Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. - Morpheus

vezokpiraka (6) - (DeathNote, Surye, Albert B. Rampage, Medicated Lain, Yosarian2, Furcolow)
Furcolow (6) - (SensFan, Porochaz, Toon Fighter, BrianMcQueso, Cogito Ergo Sum, LlamaFluff)

Surye (4) - (Internet Stranger, AGar, vezokpiraka, Zindaras)
ToonFighter (2) - (Amrun, HezLucky)
Albert B. Rampage (1) - (creampuffeater)
SensFan (1) - (Primate)
Bamboomancer (1) - (Kison)

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch

fuzzylightning has informed me of a V/LA situation soon. Will hold off on his replacement while that resolves.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

Furc is right...

[Zindaras]

FoS: Furcolow

I honestly buy the inactivity thing but I think his Vezok vote is scummy. Fur's apparently been inactive throughout the site and I don't see why we shouldn't believe him. I will only consider his inactivity suspicious if this becomes a trend throughout the game.

So, now that I'm not lurking, you're all going to jump on my bandwagon
great

@BrianMcqeso, would you like for me to talk about how IS made you look like an idiot?
or about how everyone talked about vezokpiraka for ten pages?

I could show you how HezLucky can make a post containing lots of suspicions, then throw down a vote that makes no sense, but what's the point? An eighth to a quarter of the playerlist has done that so far.

The better players in the thread are voting Vezokpiraka. The only people voting me are generally the

anal-retentive mathematicians

, idiots like Toon, or scum like LlamaFluff

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
-

hurts % of power roles not being hit

- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

I'm still catching up, but Porochaz has been hounding me even without me being here, so it is no wonder he is pushing for an easy mislynch the minute I start reading

Irony much?

HOWEVER, what appears to be a confirmed vezokpiraka is like a cancer you have to cut out before it begins. If he is actually scum, and unlynchable, just shitting up the thread with vehemence... i'm happy with my vote. If he was a GF and got wrote off as a VT it would end us as a town.

This is just silly speculation based on nothing. He's either scum or town. We do not base our decision to vote on what he could potentially have as a role. I'm pretty sure that, for example, if he's a Jester, we don't want to lynch him.

Unless there is a serious reason to think a player has a particular role, this random speculation is useless and anti-town.

I'm also going to

FoS: ToonFighter

. I'm buying a significant part of his case. (I will elaborate on this later but I need to leave. Magic Prerelease)

[LlamaFluff]

Furc is right...

But he is voting the wrong person, as in someone who is town.

I really cant understand the vezok wagon, it seems to be based on the premise that vezok has decided to take advantage of his meta and is claiming VT before the game even started. Like I said, this is a battle between "might" and "does" for scum-vezok. It *might* make people give him a pass for a few days, it *might* get him lynched today. It *does* eliminate any chance of him being able to out a power role, it *does* lock him into a confined space, it *does* instantly doom him if tracked/watched/etc.

That means it DOES hurt scum-vezok, and he damn well is smart enough to realize this before he made his claim.

Vezok seriously is in my bottom five lynches today hands down, I would rather lynch any of my null reads over him at this point. Just seriously the wagon is based almost entirely on a VT lynch being the "right" thing to do, when it most certaintly is not.

[Amrun]

So, Zindaris, you are so content with your case on Surye, which is an explicit sheep of medicated lain and which is obviously a dying wagon, that you FoS TWO people in a new post without moving your vote OR addressing Surye again at all? You haven't questioned Surye either.

Zindaris new suspect.

[Toon Fighter]

This is the post that originally aroused my suspicion. I basically said my thoughts about it when I voted TF, but as a reprisal:

He does not define what is "scummy" or "contradictory" about what DN said and did not similarly attack Yosarian, instead attacking DN for supposedly repeating something Yosarian has said on the grounds of the content of that (and not sheeping).

Note that the suspicion of DeathNote is not followed by a vote. This post reads very much to me as if ToonFighter was trying to throw out someone as a suspect, but in a fence-sitty way to see if the case would garner support. This behavior ends up being repeated later with mozamis.

It was only the beginning of the game, and I wasn't even the fisrt player to attack DN. I couldn't be seeing if the case would have support, as it was being strated already

I agree with Yosarian's questions and thoughts on Toon Fighter's attacks on DN as quoted here, which he beat me to noting, but TF's response to this is even worse. His answers seem more like he's trying to appease. "Maybe he was... it looks scummy to me." He then places a vote only after he was questioned about the suspicion with a weak explanation of why he wasn't voting before.

I had said already that it was the beginning of the game, and I wasn't sure DN deserved the vote. I voted later because I felt like he deserved it

So in between this post and the last post I quoted, TF promised to ISO DN. This is the result: more appeasement. He completely abandons his previous attack on DN, which never made any sense, saying he re-read DN and realized that DN's argument made sense after all. However, he doesn't abandon his suspicion of DN. He just finds a new angle, and another bad angle at that. The whole game's conversation was focusing around vezok at the time; DN was not alone in focusing on this issue.

The conversation was focusing primarily on vezok, but it wasn't the only point to discuss. There were other players, and other cases, and he hadn't participated in any. Scum in a game with vezok would just focus on him, and leave the actual scumhunting for the rest of the players in the game. Since DN did just that, I suspected him.

This is a repeat of the original DN behaviour: throw out an unspecific attack on a player without a vote.

Have you ISO'd mozamis? His posts are very scummy. And, admittedly, I should have changed my vote to him then, but I still didn't trust DN, and I still don't. I expected to see mozamis improve, but if he (CES now) keep the scummy behaviour, I will vote him.

This newer post is TERRIBLE. It reeks of distancing. It is a completely unprovoked but extensive defense of Furcolow, accompanied by a total sheeping vote on Furcolow and an abandoning of the previous suspicion on DN and mozamis (now CES, iirc). He even said there were no other scummy candidates besides DN, so much so that he was willing to vote for Furcolow, whom he just presented an elaborate, effort-extensive defense of and professed no conviction that Furc was actually scum with the vote. What happened to his suspicion of mozamis?

It looks to me like a flustered Furc scumbuddy who can't decide whether to distance or defend and decided to both, and in this confusion, forgot whom he had previously professed suspicion of.

I was just trying to be impartial, and I reported some facts I found. I watched the pro's and con's of voting Furcolow, and I decided it was the right thing to do. I still believe he is scummy, but if you analyse his posting pattern, he isn't SUPER scummy, he may have a point. Unfortunately, I helped his defence before he posted it, but I couldn't vote him/ don't vote him without analysing all the evidence, and his posts are the evidence.

Admittedly, I may have forgot mozamis/CES somewhat in that post, but I haven't let go of him yet. He is still one of my top suspects

More thoughts to come, on other issues.

[Amrun]

1. It wasn't that you attacked DN. It was how you did it.

2. But you presented nothing new between "can't decide" and "decided dn deserved a vote.". You just re-arranged your crappy case on DN to answer questions. Your case was so crappy that you abandoned it eventually.

3. The main issue I have here is the total abandonment of and distancing from your previous case only to jump onto another bad case on the same player. Yes, DN could have commented on other cases, but so could a lot of people. In fact, so could you. All you addressed during that whole period was DN. You're just as guilty of that as DN is.

4. Why did you expect mozamis t improve?

5. But you didn't present any evidence for why we should lynch Furcolow in spite of your evidence "for" him. In fact, your vote left the impression that you were voting for Furcolow merely because he was the popular wagon and you had no other major suspects, despite your previous suspicion of "super scummy" mozamis. Town don't just forget their top suspects like that.

[SensFan]

FoS: Furcolow

I honestly buy the inactivity thing but I think his Vezok vote is scummy. Fur's apparently been inactive throughout the site and I don't see why we shouldn't believe him. I will only consider his inactivity suspicious if this becomes a trend throughout the game.

The inactivity isn't the problem. It's the selective activity.

[AGar]

I'd rather

vote: Vezokpiraka

d1 vanilla townie claim
- hurts % of power roles not being hit
- if he's town, he will not scumhunt or lynch correctly

*smack*

No!

unvote
Vote Furc

^ This.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Furcolow

Furc needs to die.

[MrBuddyLee]

AGar, please clarify the exact reason behind your vote on Furcolow. Also, do you still think Surye is scum?

I have a much higher percentage of being a town-aligned-PR than Vezokpiraka's 0%.

Do you think Vez is scum? If not, who is scum? Why are you not voting Llama, who you've already outright called scum? And why, specifically, is Llama scum?

I'm trying to be impartial, but there are evidence that may support his(Furcolow's) innocence.

Now that we are discussing his(Furcolow's) lurking habits, the scum bag should show up

Smells funny.

vote: ToonFighter