Mafia MetaMafia ~ Game Over!

[Gammagooey]

Equi, Magua's daykill is like 90% fake at this point. I can point you to why if you'd like cause Magua's probably gotten all the reactions he wanted by now (and if he hasn't then it would be revealed in about 2 hours anyway)

hito clarify this for me

Though I can say that probably the only Worships we should have tonight are people who themselves worship Justice or Balance and see that there is 1 or 0 worships in that Domain. 2+ = don't worship.

By this do you mean only people that are justice/balance should be worshipping justice/balance or that nobody except justice/balance should be worshipping at all?

[Equinox]

Eh. The impression I got from the posts following was that it was real. I guess I'll have egg on my face really soon if what Gammagooey and you are saying is true.

Yes...but note the hustle and bustle around page 5/6 or so where hito was basically looking for any and every flaw in AGM's logic, when the whole 1:1 thing should've been pretty obvious, imo.

I've got something to say to this, but I'd like hitogoroshi to respond first.

[hitogoroshi]

Magua ninja'd me as to why I'm sure AGM isn't lying about his ability. Too easy to test, 1:1 trades favor town.

Um, yeah, so did you really just now figure that out? You spent so much of your energy getting upset with AGM for being oh so scummy and now all of a sudden the turn-around "oh not he's clearly not scummy because of this reason that at least two people have already stated."

What? I didn't "just" figure it out. I have always, always, always assumed AGM is telling the truth that he has used a double-day ability on mothrax. My initial suspicion was that he is scum who chose a town to misylnch. Learning he's only seen NS as scum and didn't read Court has left me less certain.

hito clarify this for me

Though I can say that probably the only Worships we should have tonight are people who themselves worship Justice or Balance and see that there is 1 or 0 worships in that Domain. 2+ = don't worship.

By this do you mean only people that are justice/balance should be worshipping justice/balance or that nobody except justice/balance should be worshipping at all?

Okay. From a neutral ground-state, unless you have a non-cast ability that requires x worships, worshiping ANY domain is anti-town.

ooba's claim smells legitimate and is worth testing; however, there's a chance he's scum charging a mega-ability. I THOUGHT that the whole town could see the worships and help him out if there were no worships on justice/balance. (Scum could be WIFOM-ing by avoiding their best PR's domain N0 but I get a tingly feeling they played it straight. At any rate our goal is to bully them off of optimal play.) No Justice/Balance worships don't confirm ooba as town, but they help.

HOWEVER, now it turns out that the town doesn't learn every domains worship, like I thought. Assuming Minaj is telling the truth, anyway. This means that it'd be EVEN safer for scum to charge up ooba-scum and it's something we have to test. People worshipping Justice/Balance will be able to do this test and can help him out if the domains are clean. Everyone else is in the ground state of "worshiping is anti-town."

(posting during the musical section of Reck's show THAT I'M ON; let it not be said I'm not dedicated)

[Nicki Minaj]

Do you have a reason for thinking that Justice/Balance are town other than flavour?

[Nicki Minaj]

Because if Vi is anything like I think she is, there is scum in every domain.

[Gammagooey]

Okay. From a neutral ground-state, unless you have a non-cast ability that requires x worships, worshiping ANY domain is anti-town.

Very much disagree with this because I think that most players will have casts but no 0 faith abilities (or maybe a few with useless ones like I had in WIZARDS) and that I don't think Vi balanced this mountainous-wise but I see what you meant in your last post.

[hitogoroshi]

Do you have a reason for thinking that Justice/Balance are town other than flavour?
...
Because if Vi is anything like I think she is, there is scum in every domain.

Don't want to get too much in to this until tomorrow. But in brief: domains aren't unique, but domain combinations probably

are

, and those facts basicially dictate the whole game.

If there isn't significant worship of Justice and Balance shown tonight, I'm inclined to believe ooba.

Very much disagree with this because I think that most players will have casts but no 0 faith abilities (or maybe a few with useless ones like I had in WIZARDS) and that I don't think Vi balanced this mountainous-wise but I see what you meant in your last post.

Until we're making informed decisions, the average worship is going to benefit scum more than town. Ideally we'll be making informed decisions D2.

[Duplicity]

Duplicity...in response to your take on a N0 vig shot, do you think all players are of equal use? Do you think there's any benefit for town to have a policy lynch so early in the game?

No, I don't think all players are equal use. No, I don't think there's any gain from policy lynching.

Duplicity: For the record the reason there are few "conclusions" reached from setup speculation is because I'm not DONE yet. I want to make a single guide that can't possibly be missed so scum can't claimed they just didn't notice. Honestly, in this setup, the biggest boon of speculation won't be CATCHING scum - it'll be bullying scum off of optimal play. But progress is considerably slower here because I have to write NOT KNOWING the worship distribution, which means I have to write for all of them.

Unless I'm illinformed we have no real control over what mafia does worshipping wise, nor will we find out what they did thus speculating over what everyone 'should' do is merely a distraction from scumhunting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't trust SottyR completely because of the miller claim. I'm not saying it's null...I'm saying it's something that people should always keep in mind unless some other info comes up that exonerates them or I get a super strong townread on them. I think that's reasonable, apparently we disagree though.

What exactly is gained from stating you won't be sure he's town until he gets nk'ed? Reduction in the likelyhood he gets nked? That's about all I can see.

I am playing my cards closer to my chest, which is intentional and what I think is best for the health of the game atm. Given the player list, I don't plan on rushing anything and I don't feel a need to be a 'big town leader.'

There's no need to be a big town leader but at the same time I don't understand the refrainment from stating your reads. In what way is witholding your opinion given the current situation beneficial?

Oh seraphim is also town.

Explain.

[Magua]

Real quick: Nicki is right (of course); just got the response from Vi that we only get faith totals, not domain totals.

This makes things more difficult, but that discussion is D2.

Disagree with hitogoroshi on worships. You should worship. Worshipping is likely to help 3-4 town (including yourself), and 1 scum. The key is that we want to spread the worships around.

Night actions seems simple:

If you didn't worship N0, use whatever faith you get to cast something. By "something" I would say "protections on Nicki Minaj" followed by "information" followed by "whatever".

If you did worship N0, or you don't have enough faith to cast *anything*, you should worship. If your total faith is 3 or less, worship one of your own domains. If your total faith is 4+, you are best off worshipping one of your non-domains, and if your total faith is 6+, you're best off worshipping the opposite of one of your domains (this is under the assumption that no one has a domain and its opposite).

I agree with Nicki that the scum probably have every domain covered, but probably do not stack on domains. Therefore, our goal is to spread out the worship as much as possible -- that helps the town the most and helps the scum the least. Working from the assumption that the domains are already kind of spread out, its best to stick to your own domains -- the assumption here being the case where it's obvious that scum are worshipping your domain (that is, your faith level is 3 or above).

The day-kill is sadly fake, as Parama (and Gammagooey, and likely Faraday and Nicki and hitogoroshi) already surmised. Parama's reactions, frankly, leave a lot to be desired out of the whole thing. Not the "let me do stuff while I'm alive," more the "Wait and see if I should bother." Poor test is poor, but it amused me, and in the end, that's what counts. I'm keeping my vote on Parama.

Faraday's right on mothrax, I think. We should not use the PL on him. And I swear to the skies above, Nicki Minaj is town.

[Faraday]

His iso gives a better explanation than words ever could, dearest Duplicity.

[Duplicity]

His frustration in ISO #8 was the only town-tell I could see, and a minor one at that. Again, care to explain what makes you believe he's town exactly?

[hitogoroshi]

Unless I'm illinformed we have no real control over what mafia does worshipping wise, nor will we find out what they did thus speculating over what everyone 'should' do is merely a distraction from scumhunting. Correct me if I'm wrong.

We can get a decent picture of what they did as the game goes on.

The speculating isn't so much to augment our scumhunting. It's to STOP scum from pulling the optimal play with no repercussions. That's why I'm mostly going to assume they're playing it straight.

An example is testing for voting insanities in Stars Aligned III. The testing didn't CATCH any scum - but it stopped all of them from taking voting insanities. That's the same general principle of what we have to do.

Magua: I figured the daykill was fake at first, but as you went on I got a bad case of the hopefuls.

Let me think a bit on your worshipping plan. Obviously, people who can cast should cast, but I'm just not so sure about putting energy into a system we don't understand nearly as well as the scum do. Regardless, I'm going to

V/LA today until Sunday

as I'm packing up/moving out and when I get home I suspect there will be shenanigans after I unpack. Might post Saturday if I'm feeling anti-social when I return but don't count on it.

[Faraday]

His questioning of Nicki Minaj is strongly town. His thought process matched my own, which is an incredibly strong town tell. He needs to post more, but what he did post was awesome.

[Vi]

Vote Count II:

This thread doesn't end; it just quiets down momentarily
quadz08 (L-4) ~ mothrax, Debonair Danny DiPietro, VP Baltar, Seraphim, Gammagooey, Katsuki, Faraday, singersigner
Parama (L-9) ~ Magua, hitogoroshi, Plum
VasudeVa (L-10) ~

Duplicity,

MagnaofIllusion,

Equinox, Faraday,

sottyrulez
mothrax (L-10) ~ AlmasterGM, VasudeVa
Plum (L-11) ~

sottyrulez,

Nicki Minaj
Nicki Minaj (L-11) ~ quadz08
hitogoroshi (L-11) ~ ooba
Magua (L-11) ~ Parama
VP Baltar (L-11) ~ Duplicity

Minimum (L-12)

Not Voting:

Nobody Special, RayFrost,

singersigner,

Equinox

-No mod scene is presently forthcoming.

Battery power:

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(90%)

[Gammagooey]

@Vi-

Equinox is missing from the Not Voting list.

Thank you. ~Vi

[Parama]

SHOCK
AND
AWE

can we get to lynching him now? if anything he's not only scum but also a DGB who gets some ridiculous bonus from making a fake daykill gambit, because we all know DGB loves those.

[Gammagooey]

can we get to lynching him now?

No.
Stop being useless. He isn't getting lynched today.

[Parama]

8<

unvote, vote: quadz

everwhat.

[Gammagooey]

8<

unvote, vote: quadz

everwhat.

yaaaaaaaaaaay

[Magua]

but also a DGB who gets some ridiculous bonus from making a fake daykill gambit, because we all know DGB loves those.

I did enjoy it, yes. I will likely do it again.

Maybe even during this Day.

@Parama:

Is hitogoroshi scum? What about Plum?

[Parama]

ITT Magua is a DGB alt.
I dunno about either of those two; hito could be scum but I've not been paying as much attention to him. Plum I feel is just misguided, probably not scum.

[Seraphim]

Alright. First thing actually to happen is that Gammagooey breadcrumbs what later turns out to be miller and claims that domains can be added. Nicki Minaj asks any players if they have an alignment of Evil but are still town.

Refresh my memory of the pregame. What interaction? Is this a serious vote?

This still really bugs me, I'm sorry.

sottyrulez claims MILLAR and High Priest of Zorblag. Alright. I could, concievably, buy that.

quadz's 31 gives me terri-bad scum vibes, not just because of his bullshit attack on Nicki. Trying to get town points my ass. His delayed vote seems more of an afterthought than him actually forgetting.

ooba asks for Justice or Balance worships. Alright.

Equinox joins in the Nicki voting with his post 39. He probably isn't scumbuddies with quadz. But then recants with his post 41. Definitely not scum with quadz. Probably not scum either.

quadz's 58 is probably even worse, by calling...I dunno even know what, OMGUS? It's a nice little attempt to discredit...something? What?

I do think Plum is town-null, leaning on town. Her 59 seems genuine.

Speedy vote switches allow a player to pressure multiple players at once. Additionally, it causes confusion for the other players.

Does quadz just suck at Mafia or does he honestly believe this?

Alright, now AGM has claimed some sort of strange policy lynch ability on mothrax. I think he has the power, it's stupid to claim it if he doesn't have it. Whether or not he's town is up the air.

hito is way overreacting to AGM's claim though, not to mention calling AGM/NS scumteam is an incredibly stretching job. I would not have chosen NS either, I probably would have chosen VV given our past...history, lol, which I've already alluded to. Does that make me scum with NS as well?

However, angry PMs being angry, I think it's safe to say that mothrax is town. Hopefully. I pray that he's town. Fingers crossed.

DDD makes me a little uneasy with post 85 and doesn't help with his follow-up.

Not liking Duplicity as his first post.

Nicki HOPEFULLY just townslipped, maybe. I don't think that scum would inadvertantly reveal that they are all High Priests if the possibility of it being otherwise is still open.

Still not liking Duplicity in his second post, post 100.

Calling it a night, more tomorrow. I'm really enjoying this methodical process as opposed to my skim-and-vote tactics that I usually employ. So far, my quadz vote is looking pretty justified. DDD and Duplicity don't look good to me. Hopefully I can get in on some of the action.

[VasudeVa]

Okay what the fuck?

@Vi: I moved my vote to mothrax and never voted for hito. Why am I voting for hito?

Because you never noticed the vote count being wrong yesterday. ~Vi

Vote: MoI

Did someone steal my vote or something? >.>

[VasudeVa]

@Duplicity:
I don't remember being scum against you Regfan. Not in a normal game, at least. If you're talking about the marathon game, why are you comparing my play here to a marathon?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I'm actually leaning town on Sotty/Zach now; I was initially very skeptical of a miller claim in Vi's game with her contempt for cops but the other miller claim has helped to alleviate that somewhat. More importantly is the untrackable/unwatchable claim because that seems like a brutally powerful ability for scum to have and I'm not sure it makes sense as a fake claim because it basically takes away their ability to use any sort of targeted actions.

~~~

Seraphim have we ever played together in the past? I recognize your name but I'm not linking it immediately to any games.