Mafia MetaMafia ~ Game Over!

[VP Baltar]

Why? Policy lynches should be reserved for the Worst of the Worst. The Furculows and DrMyShotty’s of the world. Realistically the only player on the list even CLOSE to that stature is Nobody Special.

Oh well, if you say it's so, then it must be true. Not really. Everyone is going to have their own opinions of what the "worst of the worst" is. Also, I find it ludicrous that you're jumping AGM because "policy lynches are reserved for scum"...well that kind of goes out the window when you have to pick N0, right? Eliminating a player he thinks won't be that helpful to gain a double day isn't a bad thing.

@AGM - I forgot to ask, does the battery reset when your policy lynch is achieved?

re: mass claiming domains - I just thought of a potential downside being some sort of scum ability that can negate worships.

[MagnaofIllusion]

]
Oh well, if you say it's so, then it must be true. Not really. Everyone is going to have their own opinions of what the "worst of the worst" is. Also, I find it ludicrous that you're jumping AGM because "policy lynches are reserved for scum"...well that kind of goes out the window when you have to pick N0, right? Eliminating a player he thinks won't be that helpful to gain a double day isn't a bad thing.

re: mass claiming domains - I just thought of a potential downside being some sort of scum ability that can negate worships.

1. Ah, condecending comments from VPB, how unexpected. Where exactly am I 'jumping' AGM? I find his call to be very Null. Explaining why the extra lynch his power provides might not be being met with universal acclaim isn't calling someone scum.
2. If said chosen Policy Lynch choice by AGM doesn't act scummy then using the ability isn't worthwhile to Town.
3. Are you speculating on a scum ability to prevent worships of players or whole Domains?

[Magua]

Not voting Quadz at the moment. Reads coming in a bit. Setup stuff first.

So I read POWERFUL WIZARDS. There was no domain claiming in it (though it only had one wizard per domain, and some people without domains, so, differences.)

I think domain claiming is a bad idea at the moment, for two reasons, one obvious and one not-so-obvious:

1) The scum. A scumgroup of N players almost certainly had N-1 of them worship a domain utilized by the last one, who will be casting some effect tonight. That's just about set in stone, and domain claiming neither helps nor hurts with that.

However, the scum group are incentivized to kill off people who do not share a scum domain, since the worship of these people is less likely to ever help the scum. That is, if your domains are Justice and Will, and no scum has either of these domains, domain claiming makes you a more likely target.

2) Tarhalindur. Being a Vi game, there's a Tarhalindur role out there, and I'm 99.9% that it will be significantly advantaged by having a massclaim of domains -- either because it has to eliminate everyone of a certain domain(s), or it wins if everyone alive has a certain domain(s), or something along those lines.

So instead of massclaiming domains, I would recommend that everyone name what domain they'd like worshipped. Which gives us nearly the same information for our purposes (what should I worship if I think X is town?), but hinders someone who needs to know what everyone's domains are.

[Gammagooey]

So instead of massclaiming domains, I would recommend that everyone name what domain they'd like worshipped. Which gives us nearly the same information for our purposes (what should I worship if I think X is town?), but hinders someone who needs to know what everyone's domains are.

This absolutely isn't happening until D2. I'm perfectly fine with it happening then though.

[VasudeVa]

I don't get why people are harassing me for my mothrax vote. A mislynch is bad

because of the nightkills/scumactions that follow

, not because of the mislynch itself. Town is getting rid of someone they don't trust with the lynch and that is ALWAYS a good thing. If AGM is telling the truth, then there won't be nightkills for a not-bad lynch. I don't see why we shouldn't take advantage of this.

This essentially an N0 vig, why not use it?

Besides, how many people here were in MoCo? Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be getting rid of mothrax, the guy who never voted for scum and was on all Town mislynches? Can any of the other MoCo players who are against this give me a reason why we aren't taking advantage of AGM's claim to keep mothrax alive?

[Magua]

Um...yes? Because every player in this game should be a high priest of a Scummer, as opposed to the Scummer himself?

What would you say if I told you that wasn't true?

Town
-----
Gammagooey is town. I brook no dissent. Everything that Gamma has done has oozed town to me.
Faraday is town...ish. Good thought processes, but won't really solidify until we've had a few flips.
AlmasterGM is town. Don't care what hitogoroshi says. Really don't care what duplicity says. Agree with ooba/Gamma that the right play would've been to wait to see how people's reads solidified and then say, "Oh, yeah, we can lynch mothrax for free," but still disbelieve Almaster-scum.
ooba is town for #103.

Scum
------
Quadz. Don't like quadz. Apparently, this feeling is shared, which makes me like quadz more. Enough to not vote him now. So it goes. Nothing personal against you, Faraday. =P
Parama. I don't like either of Parama's posts. I don't like someone who votes and then unvotes and then votes in the same post; has the feel of someone wanting to be careless and stream-of-consciousness without actually being either.

VOTE: Parama

Plum's #59 is spot-on about my feelings about Nicki Minaj as well, but I'm curiously null on Plum.

Besides, how many people here were in MoCo? Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be getting rid of mothrax, the guy who never voted for scum and was on all Town mislynches? Can any of the other MoCo players who are against this give me a reason why we aren't taking advantage of AGM's claim to keep mothrax alive?

Chances are high that mothrax will be lynched today. But I see no reason to hurry the process along when the game's been open less than 24 hours.

@Almaster:

Will this lynch reset the battery?

[VP Baltar]

1. Ah, condecending comments from VPB, how unexpected. Where exactly am I 'jumping' AGM? I find his call to be very Null. Explaining why the extra lynch his power provides might not be being met with universal acclaim isn't calling someone scum.
2. If said chosen Policy Lynch choice by AGM doesn't act scummy then using the ability isn't worthwhile to Town.
3. Are you speculating on a scum ability to prevent worships of players or whole Domains?

I never said you called him scum. I said you were criticizing him over a legit play (which you were!). What else was he supposed to do with his ability? Hint: he had no choice but to pick someone he'd like dead. You saying 'well, gee, policy lynches are best used on people I don't like rather than people AGM doesn't like' doesn't negate that he had to make a choice and chose.

re: potential scum abilities - I was thinking negating individual worships, but who knows really. Also, Magua brings up legit points against it too. It's probably too risky to claim domains.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua’s points about mass Domain claiming are noted. Given I have no Mod meta to fall back on I'll defer to those with Vi experience.

--

A mislynch is bad because of the nightkills/scumactions that follow, not because of the mislynch itself. Town is getting rid of someone they don't trust with the lynch and that is ALWAYS a good thing. If AGM is telling the truth, then there won't be nightkills for a not-bad lynch. I don't see why we shouldn't take advantage of this.

No, a mislynch is bad because you aren’t lynching scum. You are advocating lynching Mothrax simply because we get another lynch afterwards. If he’s not scum the better option is to not lynch him, keep an additional Town player around, and aim to lynch scum instead.

Besides, how many people here were in MoCo? Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be getting rid of mothrax, the guy who never voted for scum and was on all Town mislynches? Can any of the other MoCo players who are against this give me a reason why we aren't taking advantage of AGM's claim to keep mothrax alive?

Oh so the crux of this is that a single game is a reason to get rid of him? Bad use of meta to defend a bad vote. You haven’t given one reason why you thin he is scum.

My vote stands.

--

I never said you called him scum. I said you were criticizing him over a legit play (which you were!). What else was he supposed to do with his ability? Hint: he had no choice but to pick someone he'd like dead. You saying 'well, gee, policy lynches are best used on people I don't like rather than people AGM doesn't like' doesn't negate that he had to make a choice and chose.

Sigh. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t have used his ability. I disagree with his target choice but that’s my opinion. I’m entitled to have it.

And as has been said by Gamma – a better use of that information would have to wait until Mothrax had play that might make the double lynch plausible as a Pro-Town move. As it is he’s popped up to say “Hey, let’s just use my bonus Day1 power to lynch Mothrax because we can”. Sometimes the most responsible use of a power is not to exercise it.

[Faraday]

I don't get why people are harassing me for my mothrax vote. A mislynch is bad

because of the nightkills/scumactions that follow

, not because of the mislynch itself. Town is getting rid of someone they don't trust with the lynch and that is ALWAYS a good thing. If AGM is telling the truth, then there won't be nightkills for a not-bad lynch. I don't see why we shouldn't take advantage of this.

This essentially an N0 vig, why not use it?

Besides, how many people here were in MoCo? Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be getting rid of mothrax, the guy who never voted for scum and was on all Town mislynches? Can any of the other MoCo players who are against this give me a reason why we aren't taking advantage of AGM's claim to keep mothrax alive?

this might be more relevant if mothrax wasn't town, as it is, waste of space. don't give me that meta argument trash unless he's demonstrated he's on VEZOK level of voting with confirmed scum.

[VP Baltar]

Sigh. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t have used his ability. I disagree with his target choice but that’s my opinion. I’m entitled to have it.

My point is that you're nitpicking at bullshit. What ultimate purpose does complaining about AGM's choice have other than padding your posts?

[VP Baltar]

Sometimes the most responsible use of a power is not to exercise it.

So now you're suggesting he shouldn't have used it at all? Ridiculous.

[Equinox]

Quote striping time.

I didn't really read Court of the Gods, so that didn't factor in to my evaluation of NS. I played with him in another game or two and it was fine (Trader Mafia comes to mind). Mothrax, on the other hand, is 1) a douchebag 2) had shit reads and 3) posts really short and uninformative posts. He is a fine policy lynch, given the playerlist.

Question: I remember you said you read 30-40 pages of it before you got lynched. Is this true?

AlmasterGM's pushing of this lynch despite getting pressure for it and having an exit to take is townish. Not going to use that ability, however, since I like mothrax right now.

Not sure how to take hitogoroshi's attacks on AlmasterGM, probably because I somewhat agree that mothrax is a weird choice when there's Katsuki and Nobody Special (with due apologies to you two), and that's coloring my read. I want to see hitogoroshi fan the umbrella a bit more and talk about more people, though.

Well this is easy.

[...]

I'll probably be voting for quadz after we're done with mothrax.

Unvote, Vote: VasudeVa

Okay, so VasudeVa drops the vote on mothrax and... doesn't do much else. I like my vote right here.

Please explain who scum would not benefit from a free mislynch if Mothrax is Town. I’m dying to know. Because AGM hasn’t claimed anything that gives him insight into Mothrax’s alignment as his choice.

Wasn't thinking about free mislynch as much as, "Longer day but no night phase in between to do evil things." My impression is that longer days with a flip aren't in scum's favor. Nicki Minaj has a point in that Vi would probably play with abilities and allegiances, but I still think AlmasterGM is townish for his reactions.

Do you honestly believe that we shouldn't be getting rid of mothrax, the guy who never voted for scum and was on all Town mislynches?

You do realize that applies to a sizeable portion of the town in MoCO, right?

Also, this

isn't

a Night 0 vig, so don't say that it is.

All right, instead of talking about why mothrax is such a good policy lynch, how about we talk about the players in the last 6 pages? After all, lynching scum > policy lynching, any day.

Chances are high that mothrax will be lynched today.

What?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So now you're suggesting he shouldn't have used it at all? Ridiculous.

No. Don't be a moron. I'm suggesting that unless Mothrax is SCUMMY we don't exercise the Double Lynch power.

On the topic of pointlessly nitpicking ...

[Magua]

Also, this isn't a Night 0 vig, so don't say that it is.

Assuming AlmasterGM is telling the truth, which I am currently doing, it *is* a Night 0 vig *that requires the consent of the town*. That is *exactly* what it is. In fact, it's even *better* because we get to see mothrax's play before we decide to go through with it or not.

All right, instead of talking about why mothrax is such a good policy lynch, how about we talk about the players in the last 6 pages? After all, lynching scum > policy lynching, any day.

Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing this. Seeing as there's only one vote that I can see on mothrax at the moment, this reads as fantastically defensive. *You're* the one drawing the topic back to Almaster/mothrax.

Chances are high that mothrax will be lynched today.

What?

Did I stutter?

[sottyrulez]

@VP: No opinion on Gamma's miller claim? You were more than willing to share a reaction to ours, but your reaction to his... not so much of one.

As far as your exchange with Magna. Unless you think his position on Almaster and the double day makes him likely scum, I don't see this exchange doing much more than taking up pages and wasting space.

[hitogoroshi]

This simply presumes I am scum and does not actually prove why this would ever actually be a scum ability. It's an extra kill. Scum don't get this.

Right, it doesn't prove that it's a scum ability. But you said that it's DEFINITELY not a scum power, and that's simply not true.

Not in reachable memory, actually. All the games I remember he was obvscum. Still, though, this line of Mothrax v Nobody Special irrelevant - it's likes saying, "I don't believe your cop claim because I would have investigated THIS person instead of THAT person!" Unless you think mothrax is a BAD vig shot and that you would rather let him live than kill him for free, then it's just a matter of preference. And it's my ability and I happen to prefer mothrax over Nobody Special.

Spoiler alert - he is obvscum as town too.

Still, I guess if you've never read a game where he's town I can understand why you'd prefer mothrax.

hitogoroshi, you've seen Faraday as scum before, right? Do you think he casts unexplained votes more often as town? See, from some players, I'd understand your POV that it might draw attention to them, but this is a complete null tell with Faraday.

Actually, come to think of it, not sure if I've read a game where Faraday is scum. We've discussed being town/scum enough that I feel have some idea, though.

Regardless, it's more than the unexplained vote. It's try to get quadz to scumslip and looking weird doing it.

It's not as though NS is SOOOOOOO much better that anyone who DIDN'T choose him is obvNSbuddy.

Actually, I think this is pretty nearly the case.

@hito - was it you earlier implying that we only got the double day on a mislynch? Reading AGM's post, I don't get that sense at all. Why did you say that? (unless I misread/misattributed something)

That was a response to the comment that roughly went: "It's not like Double Day benefits scum, so that wouldn't really be a scum ability." (paraphrased from Equinox) I was responding to that by saying if scum had that ability, it'd benefit scum plenty because the first lynch would be a guaranteed mislynch. Obviously, if AGM is town, the mothrax lynch has the usual 20%-ish chance of hitting scum.

---

Magua gets townpoints for his points on domain claiming. Thank christ there'll be someone checking my work on setup spec.

Magua:

Agree/Disagree with this statement: "When we discover which Domain has the most Worshippers tonight, we should take care to never Worship that domain again."

I was trying to trick Sotty into inventing flavor when, looking at the sample, there probably wasn't any. It almost seems like that happened, but the subsequent explanation about the passive ability "Trollspeak" makes sense.

Though, Sottyrulez - why not claim in your first post that you can't be neighborized?

Gamma is town, DDD probably is too (130). My townread on ooba is inversely proportional to how many Justice/Balance worships we see tonight. Off the table today, anyway.

[VasudeVa]

Oh so the crux of this is that a single game is a reason to get rid of him? Bad use of meta to defend a bad vote. You haven’t given one reason why you thin he is scum.

My vote stands.

Do you have a reason to think he's Town?
I don't. I'm voting for him to find out. If mothrax shows Townieness, I'm off. If he doesn't, I'm continuing.

You do realize that applies to a sizeable portion of the town in MoCO, right?

Also, this isn't a Night 0 vig, so don't say that it is.

All right, instead of talking about why mothrax is such a good policy lynch, how about we talk about the players in the last 6 pages? After all, lynching scum > policy lynching, any day.

I knew that. I'm still voting for mothrax. Problem?

I said it is

essentially

an N0 vig. It get rids of someone you don't want to play with. The downside is, you have to convince everyone else to go through with said vig.

Heh, don't gimme that "hunt scum" crock. I'm hunting at my own pace. I react to things as I see them. I don't have to force my opinions on things that don't stand out to me.

---

MoI whiteknighting the policy issue and being adamant in his stance is typical scumMoI. I suppose I could be voting for him soon too. I do have a 2/3 record of reading him correctly anyway.

Hey Faraday, explanation on your #117?

[Equinox]

Eh, fair point about the consent, but that's semantics.

Absolutely nothing is stopping you from doing this. Seeing as there's only one vote that I can see on mothrax at the moment, this reads as fantastically defensive. *You're* the one drawing the topic back to Almaster/mothrax.

Except I have been doing this, and my concern was that VasudeVa hasn't; instead, he opted to drop a vote on mothrax, drop a couple of lines about quadz08 and hitogoroshi, and then... that's it. I didn't like him going for a policy lynch but not doing anything in the meantime.

I don't think I'm pulling it back to AlmasterGM/mothrax. First half of the post was a read on AlmasterGM and hitogoroshi, then I had to respond to MagnaofIllusion and VasudeVa. I'm not commenting on others either because I have town reads and don't feel like revealing them or because I'm in "wait and see" mode.

[VP Baltar]

I said I think gamma is town...that should be a pretty clear indicator.

re:talking to Magna - you think I'm asking him for any other reason than to figure out his alignment?

[Parama]

I don't like either of Parama's posts.

I've only made one content post, so you starting out with this is a pretty good basis for me to discredit your posts.

I don't like someone who votes and then unvotes and then votes in the same post; has the feel of someone wanting to be careless and stream-of-consciousness without actually being either.

Your case on me: lol I voted twice in the same post
Uh okay.
That's not a case. I'll just put you on my "to-be-ignored-all-game" list now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Do you have a reason to think he's Town?
I don't. I'm voting for him to find out. If mothrax shows Townieness, I'm off. If he doesn't, I'm continuing.

I don’t have any reason so far to think he’s scum. I’d rather Scum-hunt than Town-hunt with votes. Continue to ignore everything else going on trying to somehow justify your bad vote.

[VasudeVa]

What exactly am I ignoring MoI?

[Magua]

Magua: Agree/Disagree with this statement: "When we discover which Domain has the most Worshippers tonight, we should take care to never Worship that domain again."

Agree. (I reserve the right to modify this depending on what information we get when someone flips.)

However, you should not rule out the idea that the scum have access to every domain to begin with.

I was trying to trick Sotty into inventing flavor when, looking at the sample, there probably wasn't any. It almost seems like that happened, but the subsequent explanation about the passive ability "Trollspeak" makes sense.

One of the following two is true:
1) Scum are given roles such that they can claim the role with some of its abilities (and their flavor) straight from their PM and pass for town, or
2) Scum are given mod-provided fakeclaims with mod-provided fakeclaim flavor.

So, I wouldn't be looking for flavor slips.

Your case on me: lol I voted twice in the same post
Uh okay.
That's not a case. I'll just put you on my "to-be-ignored-all-game" list now.

Again, defensiveness trying to be passed off as casual. Liking my vote more.

@Equinox:

Your opinion on Parama, please.

[Parama]

Actually, no. I think there IS a problem with that beyond the stupidity of it.
7 pages into a game.
Your vote is "LOL THIS GUY VOTED TWICE IN ONE POST, SCUM SCUM SCUM"
And your only mention of quadz: "i don liek him"
what a blatant "fos: buddy vote: townie lolololol" post.
magua's desperately trying to avoid bussing at this stage in the game. but the only thing he can come up with to push is "uh double vote = scumtell i thik? lolz."
y'know what this means?
EVERYBODY under serious suspicion is very likely scum if Magua is scum, which he is.
there are too many of the scums.

hey guys we're cool:
sottyrulez
faraday

specifically, I hope you choke:
quadz
vv
magua

i don't really know because i skim most of this crap anyways:
everybody else

[Parama]

Your case on me: lol I voted twice in the same post
Uh okay.
That's not a case. I'll just put you on my "to-be-ignored-all-game" list now.

Again, defensiveness trying to be passed off as casual. Liking my vote more.

@Equinox:

Your opinion on Parama, please.

this is one huge slander campaign. great.

unvote, vote: magua

I don't care that VV has basically claimed scum. Magua basically just posted his role PM for us.