AGar wrote:BrianMcQueso wrote:AGar wrote:Some people go into games with players they won't lynch D1
without a massive event happening, for one reason or another. For some it's Glork, for others it's Fate. For me this game, it's Vezok. One of you would have to provide something that can't happen at this point (a la, a night action)
for me to consider his lynch today
, not with so many people going "Ooh, easy wagon!" There are a million and one better candidates than Vezok right now. Like Surye or ABR.
So, you came into this game knowing you wouldn't lynch Vezok? And there's no way we can convince you otherwise? You're admitting personal bias, and you're saying the only thing to convince you otherwise is with a night action. Which is funny, considering that most people seem to be saying that actually using investigations on Vezok would be a terrible idea.
Your actions are not helping the town.
You're either braindead or scum. Take your pick.
Vezok claimed VT pre-game. Once the game opened, that put him on the no D1 lynch list for me. There are more fruitful choices than someone who claimed VT pre-game like he almost always does.
And if you'd learn to read, I said that the only things that would convince me otherwise
couldn't happen (a la, a night action)
MEANING WE HAD NO NIGHT ZERO.
Seriously. Which is it?
If he always does it, it's a null tell. I hugely dislike the way you're acting about this issue. He is no blind machine doing the same thing over and over again.
BrianMcQueso wrote:Albert B. Rampage wrote:BrianMcQueso wrote:@Albert You also should stop with the personal attacks. It has no place here, for many reasons.
Excuse me?
I am being nice, sir. If you think that I should censor myself from saying that someone
annoys
me, please kindly take a step back, clear your thoughts, and come back to me with a smarter reply.
I suppose I overreacted, and I was in a bad mood considering I had just been called braindead and illiterate.
Albert B. Rampage wrote:Maybe they killed you because they find you as annoying as I do.
Nevertheless, this kind of post really doesn't contribute to the game.
No. I agree with you on this. I have no interest in insults and whatever. I accede that MS is a dramafest but go do it somewhere else, please. We're stuck with what we have and we'll have to do the best we can with it. Policy lynching Vezok is just random. We can do better than random.
Surye wrote:My ideas to come up with a solution to the problems I listed seem to have struck a cord with some as scummy and anti-town. I'm okay with them not being good ideas, and to be honest, with this day already a mess, they are desperate to find something to find scummy and wagon. But the speed in which some people jumped on against me is very interesting. Especially Agar and Vez.
Zindaras wrote:WIFOM does not exist.
Also, this post contradicts both with your
earlier post and your still-present vote on Vez. You apparently find the wagon to be useless regarding information, yet you're still on it. Leading the Cop is also a no-no.
Feeling pretty good about my Surye vote right now.
You clearly missed my point. I believe his wagon will be useless regarding information, and I believe him surviving on is dangerous to town. Did I not make that clear, or do you find them mutually exclusive?
If his survival is inherently dangerous to the town, there was no reason to lead the Cop to investigate him: he would have to die regardless of his alignment. Beyond that, I've seen zero proof of his danger to the town. I will concede that he's no PJ or Glork but if he's a townie then he's most certainly not a
danger
.
Also:
Surye wrote:Okay, reading the pregame and day so far, I like the Vez bandwagon. Since a lynch would, especially D1 with as little information based on PR due to no n0, be either best case senario, or second to best (scum, or no PR). I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.
I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.
So,
Vote: Vez
There's no "Vez is a danger to the town regardless of his alignment" there.
vezokpiraka wrote:Those suspecting AGar and me as scum: Because we all know that scums protect each other so hard that is the best way to go. Seriously if oyu are town and thikning that please go back and say it louder a few times.
As close as this comes to WIFOM, it's an utterly irrelevant statement. Also, it only makes me think that you are scum together more, rather than less.
Surye wrote:SensFan wrote:Surye wrote:You clearly missed my point. I believe his wagon will be useless regarding information, and I believe him surviving on is dangerous to town. Did I not make that clear, or do you find them mutually exclusive?
Do you think his wagon will suddenly gain information if it happens 3 days from now?
Nope, which is why it sucks we're in this position. But I do think he hurts town's chance of winning the longer he is alive, because regardless of what Zin says, claiming VT pregame IS wifom. And the misinformation and confusion will be clear to one side only, scum. That is dangerous. Add to it the PR list narrowing (and vez saying PR roles don't matter, pfft), and I still think he needs to be eliminated asap to prevent these issues. My idea was an attempt at allowing us another bandwagon and lynch today that could be more fruitful, and still take care of the vez problem, but apparently there's some game theory issues I was not taking into account in that plan, so it may be a bad plan. Which would explain why my vote hasn't moved, because my premise never moved.
Hi. WIFOM most certainly does not exist*. And it even more certainly is not WIFOM to claim vanilla pre-game. I'm not even sure what the WIFOM there would actually be. That he is a vanilla or not or that he's scum or not? Beyond that, misinformation and confusion do not just benefit the scum. Otherwise, we'd mass claim D1 every game. Don't be silly. PR list narrowing...is a marginal issue. Sure, it's an issue, but it makes no sense to play the numbers for that 2% and just give up on D1.
Medicated Lain wrote:Other notes:
What is up with people voting for Surye? I don't follow that, could I get an explanation?
Surye wrote:Okay, reading the pregame and day so far, I like the Vez bandwagon. Since a lynch would, especially D1 with as little information based on PR due to no n0, be either best case senario, or second to best (scum, or no PR). I'm fine with taking as much time as we want on the actual lynch, however scum and town alike will be likely to lynch him, in either case. Bussing someone who claims VT, especially one that has meta from others as a bad player/policy lynch regardless of the claim, leads little information on the bandwagon itself.
I think unfortunately with his claim, we've lost a chance at a lot of information we could have acquired on D1, and we're going to end it with much less for the PRs to go on in the night.
So,
Vote: Vez
This is the main starting point that makes the alarm bells ring for me.
1: I don't actually understand the second sentence, but that may be my sleepy state.
2: "There can be no information gained from this lynch." This is of course a patently false statement but regardless, it's just a nice way of saying "Don't analyse this vote." This basically tells me that he's shoring up his defenses for after the lynch, which I think is a definite scum-move.
3: The whole post reeks of "we should lynch vezok and not care about his alignment." This is a position which really troubles me, not just from Surye but also from Yossy and Deathnote.
4: The vote is quite wagony.
Surye wrote:The key here is there is no night 0, without that dimension, day 1 sucks information wise, especially with a VT claim. I know, I've said this, but I wanted to emphasis the n0 point.
Additionally, we can attempt another wagon, and use that for analysis, however tomorrow we'll have the vez problem, or the next night, or the next, each time, the PR roles being more at risk, and providing less over all information to the town. If you don't believe me, look at Poro's analysis and extrapolate the numbers. He has the least negative effect to the town as a day 1 lynch in this current setup and situation. I strongly believe in that.
Again, I think the numbers excuse is ridiculous and Surye feels to me like he's actively trying to force the mathematical explanation on people. Note that Vezok's alignment is never in question.
Surye wrote:SensFan wrote:Surye wrote:SensFan wrote:"Let's move to another wagon for information, get them to claim, and then come back to the guy we already know we want to lynch and already claimed Vanilla" is worse.
Why?
Please tell me you do actually see the problem with that statement. Please.
I don't deny there is an issue with that situation, my problem is that I see a problem in both situations, and I'm trying to figure out what the best answer is.
- I believe VezTown really messed up, and hurt town with his action and that's unfortunate. However every town
is
an important number.
- I believe VezScum is using basic wifom to cause confusion and arguing in a way that is not helpful to scum hunting.
- I think lynching Vez D1 is pretty much a no-tell, and in further thought, this wagon is not helpful either, which as I've been saying means no information.
- The odds of VezTown vs VezScum is what I think dictates whether it is in towns best interest for an early lynch. I have not fully assessed that, partially because of the inherent problem with analyzing what is essentially a wifom.
- Sensfan is right, if we leave the Vez wagon for someone else, we can't have an intention of going back, as a spineless wagon is just as useless. I did not think that through.
So given my thoughts above, what does someone think of this plan (thought of it while driving home, may need some help):
- Forget Vez wagon as ultimately useless for D1.
- Cop investigates Vez night 1. The nice thing about this is if we only have an alignment cop, that is all we need.
- If Vez is clean, we can backburner him, and not worry about addressing issues of action tampering, since we have no real claims yet.
- If Vez comes up dirty, we have D2 lynch, save risking a power role, and give slight incentive to kill Vez N1 as it would prevent a mislynch D2. In this case we'd need to then begin protecting the cop.
Thoughts?
After forcing upon us the whole numbers reason, we now suddenly get a completely different plan. Besides the obvious problems with leading the Cop, we also have the issue I just explained to Surye that this plan just doesn't make any sense given the whole numbers argument. Surye wants to lynch Vezok to keep the potential pool of power roles as large as possible: this plan would actually reduce the pool quite strongly. Hence, this makes me think Surye is scum even more. It reeks of him trying to get Vezok lynched in whatever way is necessary, regardless of the arguments.
*Except for some small exceptions. This is most certainly not one.
