Mini 1159 - Powerrox93's Mini Normal I (Game Over)

[tarsonisocelot]

Good morning townies and mafia scum!
VOTE: [L] Unless you share your candy.

[tarsonisocelot]

/hordes candy.

Vote: crazy

cos he's awesome~

...
/steals candy from hoard with the help of a zombie horde

Hi andrew,
I'm only a serial killer in your dreams.
My name means Ocelot of Tarsonis.
Question marks are your friend, yes?
<3 TO, the cannibal

[tarsonisocelot]

andrew94 is onto something but not for the reasons he thinks. tarsonisocelot's greeting to townies and mafia is not the mark of a serial killer. It's the sign of a mafioso who's thinking only in terms of town and mafia, rather than a townie who's considering all possible enemies. (Also the 'mafia scum' seems a bit forced when he could just say 'mafia', clearly trying to distance himself a bit with that phrasing.)

Vote: tarsonisocelot

As for yabbaguy, StefanB's question is about as useful as the 'are you carrying illegal drugs?' questions on custom forms. "Why yes, StefanB, I am scum." But he's right that yabbaguy's concern about being a possible lynchee is a bit odd. One to keep an eye on.

Or there were only two [insert faction here] slots in the template text "Good morning [Group A] and [Group B]!".

Serial killers are unlikely to respond to greetings anyway, being of an antisocial nature for the most part.

Question won't get a usefully truthful answer sure, but it could create an interaction to look at later.

Nota Bene: I'm female.

[tarsonisocelot]

TO: it is because your good morning template only had two slots that you are suspected of being scum.
Why would you respond to your own greeting?

Suspicious ocelot is suspicious.

Vote: TO

Add a third gender to standard English language interactions between humans and I'll change my template - obviously where it came from.

I've played in games with 2 and 19 sides, but not three to my knowledge[could change by the time this game ends]. Is there any reason that not accounting for all of these and other possibilities in a throwaway comment at the start of RVS is suspicious or is this just because I stole a piece of candy from you?

[tarsonisocelot]

I've played in games with 2 and 19 sides

19 sides? Was that 19 SKs put up against each other? o_O

19 sides:three town players, one of whom was confirmed innocent and could only be killed by two players with the option of giving up all other powers to twilight kill him; a scumteam of godafather + goon; a neutral team of a survivor plus bodyguard; and 16 SKs. I was bodyguard.
We knew the mod was a troll when we signed up, but only realised he was a bastard on D2 when 10 players were dead. It was an odd game. One of the SKs realised that most players were on D1 and then used the lack of "fight club rules" to set up a syndicate an co-ordinate the night kills. Two SKs fulfilled their win conditions - one won if town and mafia lost, the other survived.
Fun but crazy.

[tarsonisocelot]

Imaginality: Oh sorry should I be voting Yabba?

I'll set this right with a quick

Unvote
vote: Yabba

I'm so glad you're watching out for me!

*Confusion*

[tarsonisocelot]

@Surprise_Carcinogen: Quite simply, townies are not concerned with convincing people that they are sincere - they're too busy being paranoid and distrustful. Only scum come out and want to be trusted. That's the difference.

How are townies supposed to even fight against their own mislynch if they don't convince some other townies that they are trustworthy? How do they get their suspects wagoned or their townreads to not be lynched? This doesn't make sense to me. Being town seems to be more about working out where to place your trust than just not having any.

[tarsonisocelot]

Andrew: You've been avoiding mentioning me in any significant way. Firstly, why have you been doing this? Secondly, gimme an opinion on me or my wagon or some fucking thing. Considering how prominent all this shit surrounding me is right now you really have no excuse to be silent about it.

L: Same as above. You've been ignoring the entire Jase wagon. First, Why? Second, want opinion etc.

Ocelot: Same as above. All you've said about me is that I'm confusing. 1st, etc. 2nd, etc.

I was deciding whether or not I should join that wagon because your earlier posts were more than a little "wtf?" to me. Your last couple of posts have actually seemed town though.

[L]: My vote on you is no longer random. Your reasoning for voting me was very weak, as is your reasoning for FoSing SC.

Me=Weird has a nice first post, townread.
andrew94, null, dislike his playstyle.
imaginality I'm leaning town on.
yabbaguy made what I thought was obviously a non-serious post first. Several people then took it seriously. I'll take a better look at the reactions to it later.

[tarsonisocelot]

@ jase, i havent mentioned a lot of people, you pull my name out of the hat as if YOUR the only person i ever ignored. my thoughts are by doing that, you are trying to make me go down with you when you flip scum.a
about your post 78, i dont understand what 'context' of exchange... wtf are u talking about, how does it relate to the quote above.

Yes, I picked you alone, COMPLETELY AT RANDOM to pester for ignoring me and (by extension) the largest wagon that's happened so far. I OBVIOUSLY did this because I am scum and I (for some fucking reason) believe that if you actually say what you think about my wagon that you'll be branded as my scumbuddy and speed lynched the day after my own INEVITABLE lynch.

THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE.

Really though, I asked the same thing from everyone who hasn't commented on me or the wagon against me. There's four people in total who've been ignoring me and I somewhat doubt we're looking at that many scum in a game this size. So obviously ignoring me wasn't a huge scum tell. Of course then YOU throw out some bullshit about how I must be an idiot for calling you (not anyone else, just you) out on that or something. What's worse you THEN go on to give no information WHEN SPECIFICALLY ASKED. I'm thinking that IS a pretty substantial scumtell.
Now then, are you gonna say something about my wagon or do you still think it's some sort of nefarious trap?

Now then (sigh) post 78, L and Imaginality (I think) called SC out for telling me (when I asked if he was being sarcastic) that I should take him at face value. And while it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for that to be scummy out of that context, IN context it's a laughable thing to try and throw in someones face. Does that clear up the meaning of that post somewhat?

The only reason he's a null-read for me is because from what I gather playing like this is par for the course with him. He replaced out of an ongoing game I'm in and all of his posts were short, ungrammatical and without much, if any, logic behind them. No idea what his slot will flip but another player suggested policy lynching him before he'd really started posting so I gather he posts like that in most/all games.

[tarsonisocelot]

Wait, you mean me or andrew?

andrew, I've never played with you.

[tarsonisocelot]

Other strange thinks: Post 4 (first playerpost) were did the candyjoke come from? This sounds strange, wouldn't be a day later, but on Saturday it sounded strange.

You've never heard of Death Note have you?
L is a candy-addicted detective in it.
If anything it would be strange to vote based on a name-related joke after the first few posts. At the very start of RVS, random votes are hardly scumtells.

No time until tomorrow to read StefanB, but I don't like this post - not because it is aimed at me, but because it doesn't seem to make any sense.

[tarsonisocelot]

unvote

Why unvote me if you think I'm scum? You haven't said anything about me since

TO, on the other hand, has had a laid back affect, casually throwing out questions. From that first [second?] day, she set off my alarm bells. I voted her promptly - and I am just watching her for more confirmation, which she has been providing.

Also that thing about alarm bells being rung on the first page was the ridiculous "Good morning" thing you called suspicious when you voted.
The only other thing you've said about me is that my posts are pointless.

What did I do to make you decide to unvote?
It must have been something specific to me because you have yet to vote for anyone else.

Please vote for the person you find most suspicious and why.

[tarsonisocelot]

tarsonisocelot

: What do you think about the bandwagons on yabbaguy and Jase? Are they justified?

I think that the yabbaguy wagon was basically requested by yabba in his first post. I don't think it's a particularly good one but I can see some townies following the reasoning given for the vote.

Jase's wagon was well justified at the time it formed. he has since started posting more useful less weird posts so I don't think that continuing to target him is needed or good for town.



[L] I think is scum.
Haven't thought about partners for them yet.

[tarsonisocelot]

unvote

Why unvote me if you think I'm scum? You haven't said anything about me since

TO, on the other hand, has had a laid back affect, casually throwing out questions. From that first [second?] day, she set off my alarm bells. I voted her promptly - and I am just watching her for more confirmation, which she has been providing.

Also that thing about alarm bells being rung on the first page was the ridiculous "Good morning" thing you called suspicious when you voted.
The only other thing you've said about me is that my posts are pointless.

What did I do to make you decide to unvote?
It must have been something specific to me because you have yet to vote for anyone else.

Please vote for the person you find most suspicious and why.

Thank you for voting for someone. Still to hear why you unvoted me.



StefanB: By what reasoning do you consider the people on your wagon are town?

[tarsonisocelot]

[L], I'm voting for you. If you want, you can refute my case. Regardless I want more votes for you.

Well, frankly, you've seen me play as scum. I am much....shall we say....different. My town approach is to analyze more... but this game started out so disgustingly that I haven't even done that. I'll be honest - I haven't been involved in the game the way I wanted to be. I'm frustrated. But I'm not giving up on the game because I'm the type to see things through to their end.

So when you are scum you play this way but as town you analyze more? And this is meant to make us think you are town.

"vote was useless": My vote on TO was not useless, because it was not a pressure vote. I truly believe she is scum. Currently, I had to remove my vote to see how she behaves. I'm somewhat ambivalent right now, on her.

Do you believe I am scum or are you ambivalent on whether or not I am scum?

I truly believe that you are scum.


I've tunneled a bit in the past few pages, next post will focus on scumminess or towniness of other players.

[tarsonisocelot]

I've tunneled a bit in the past few pages.

Not buying that remark. A glance at your ISO, and I see it more as someone who isn't even contriving it so much as they're just lazily tapping out a few points that kinda sorta maybe seem scummy to a sorta reasonable extent.

Much different than someone almost intoxicated with the disease of finding someone scummy no matter what. I don't see said plague running rampant.

Comprende?

Yes, I meant that I had only really looked at/thought about [L] for a few days. I thought that that was what tunneling meant, rather than deciding someone was scum then claiming their every move was scummy.

I've been fairly busy IRL over the past couple of days with Bessel's equations and this game requires more thought for less enjoyment than the Cthulu one did so I've been avoiding it a bit. That's my only completed game on this site

. I think I was even more lurky in some of the others where I am dead but the game is ongoing, however in both I was some kind of PR. My level of play is described in my sig. Still "lurk more" really isn't the best reaction to have to pressure (though it is my natural one) so now to reread. Will post a couple of pages at a time to reduce 'orrible wallness of it.

Page #1:
Idiocy about "Good Morning' and about "don't lynch me" reactionfish occur. Lowest content post of the game award to L for ";_;".
Imaginality's response to reactionfish is bad, looks at two not great arguments for people being suspicious pokes a couple of holes in them then agrees with them and votes for one. andrew plays as andrew does.
StephanB seems not the best communicator but feels town at this point. Yabbaguy seems town from first post - it was obviously not serious yet people responded as though it was and it seemed that town would gain more from it than scum.

Page #2:
[L] returns my vote on her giving andrew & Imaginality's P1 reasoning.
Yabbaguy votes Imaginality for their reactions on P1.
StefanB translates explanation of reactionfish to "blablabla"
Jase notes yabbaguy's first post was deceptive and calls him scum for it then votes StefanB "for no adequately explained reason".
Yabba explains reactionfish more clearly to StefanB, gives a good analysis of the players who bit. Notes that Zdenek's laziness is off meta.
Imaginality clarifies earlier post, states that reasons were weak. Says StefanB reacted well to questions. Votes Jase for above.
Jase: "You want me to vote for who I think is scum not someone random? Fine then. Oh and you think my random vote when I had an actual suspect was weird? Stop discrediting me, nothing weird about that."
Yabbaguy back-and-forths with Jase then votes StefanB for confrontationalism.
Jase comments on UnclePain's lurkiness. A wild carcinogen appears.
StefanB fos's Jase, explains that they read yabbaguy's reaction to their reaction a scummy.

Page #3:
SC votes Jase calling him bad and claiming null on him.
Yabbaguy unvotes StefanB calling him tunneling town. 'Scum either Jase or lurking and laughing'. SC wants definition of lurker, defensive?
UnclePain: 'That's WIFOM yabbaguy."
Zdenek: StefanB and moreso SC are activelurking. Votes SC as the worse of the two. [Yes, I was trying to work out if they were voting randomly entirely or if they actually believed that my comment was some kind of tell.]
Jase votes UnclePain for lack of contribution, omgus, vote hopping and defensiveness.
Yabbaguy calls SC activelurking.
SC: fail justification of first post lurkiness. Accuses zdenek of lurkiness and asks why yabbaguy is susicious of SC.
Crazy: Gives list of suspects and reasons. Good post.
andrew continues to be andrew. I could say anything about him here and he'd probably not notice as he doesn't read walls.
SC gives a decent-ish post claiming zdenek has done little scumhunting. Advises we ignore andrew's sig. IA as discussing it won't make him change.
Sarcasmtangentohjoy
A wild Groupthink appears! It uses Unexplained Vote. It's not very effective...
StefanB (rhetorical saga continues in the background) posts claiming to have become overemotional, provides no new material that I noticed.
UnclePain posts defense and good reasoning for voting Jase.
Me=Weird posts their scumlist + quicklist of reasons.
Sinceritytangent has begun.

First three pages. At this point I was voting [L], and thought that SC and Jase were suspicious. Imaginality had started off higher on my scumlist but dropped down after a few posts. GroupThink seems to have only contributed a random bandwagon vote by this stage, I'll pay more attention to that slot this readthrough than I did originally. Next few pages of reread and response to any comments on this post to arrive within 24 hours barring catastrophe.

PEdit: I do have a suggested acronym in my sig, but many people prefer to type t then keyboardmash. I'm not sure why.

[tarsonisocelot]

First three pages. At this point I was voting [L], and thought that SC and Jase were suspicious. Imaginality had started off higher on my scumlist but dropped down after a few posts. GroupThink seems to have only contributed a random bandwagon vote by this stage, I'll pay more attention to that slot this readthrough than I did originally. Next few pages of reread and response to any comments on this post to arrive within 24 hours barring catastrophe.

Why? Why were you voting L? Why were you suspicious of SC and Jase?

I'm harping on this because your latest post feels like exactly what I'm accusing you of. It's almost entirely summary and unrelated stuff; there's very little real analysis. You give us a couple of reads but no real reasoning behind them.

Simple question: why is your top scum prospect your top scum prospect?

Ninjaedit: Reading over your most recent post before hitting submit, I came across this line:

Imaginality's response to reactionfish is bad, looks at two not great arguments for people being suspicious pokes a couple of holes in them then agrees with them and votes for one.

Clearly this made you suspicious of Imaginality. Why did that change?

About to reread the next few pages. Got interrupted by falling asleep at my desk.
At endof page 3, my vote on [L] was still there from RVS because they hadn't done anything particularly townie. They had five posts of which one corrected the bracketing of their random vote and another contained only an emoticon, of the two with any attempt at content one pointed out that Jase's late RV was weird and the other sheeped Imaginality & andrews reason for voting me. I did not feel the need to change my vote yet as I hadn't seen anyone I was sure deserved it more than [L] or gotten some kind of supertownie vibe from them, current suspicions of them will appear further through the reread. Jase was being suspicious, as stated in my readthrough, but there were others already trying to get more out of him and I wasn't yet sure whether they were just being scummily weird or being actually scummy. My hope was that other better players would get more from them before I chose to change votes or not, which did happen. SC was mainly on the list because of their lurkiness plus being overly defensive about being accused of lurkiness. It wasn't a strong read, but this was page 3.

I thought that imaginality initially responded badly to the reactionfish, but the second post was less so. The Jase vote was justified at the time for the "call out scum, then vote a random instead" weirdness. There wasn't much content from them, but they did attempt to give reasons for their votes. Mostly here it was that others, particularly Jase, had done more suspicious things so I'd stopped thinking much about imaginality. I won't be evaluating every player at every point, but I will attempt to do so for the end of the reread because the main thing I might overlook is non-active lurking.

This read through will focus mostly on listing the things I think possibly notable, along with some small amount of comments on why. The mentions of tangents are there so people like Jase know that I am not ignoring those posts, but deliberately disregarding them as irrelevant. I do not feel I am good enough at distinguishing useful information from useless, so I'm erring on the side of more information. Later, when I have a full reread done I'll try to refine my reads more. If you spot anything that seems off or you think that I should look more at something specific then say so, I'm better at checking for specific links and so on than D1 stuff. Next post will contain 4-6/7 depending on length.

[tarsonisocelot]

Sorry for the wall. This one should have a bit more of my thoughts on things in built.

Page #4:
[L]: FoS SC for sinceritytangent
Imaginality gives reads, claims will provide case on andrewscum later. Says TO(me) should scum hunt[IA].
Jase: [L]/Me=Weird built sinceritytangent from ignoring context of SC/Jase interaction. Claims that it was done in a way that would make SC look scummier than they are. Asks for comments on Jase from people who haven't said much about him and on anything from Groupthink, whose sole contribution is still a late random vote with no comments attached. I think this is pro-town posting.
andrew94 continues to be andrew94, has apparently not been reading. If there were no scummier targets...
SC: Calls [L]'s part in sinceritytangent misrep. Claims andrew specifically is sus for ignoring Jase but that it may just be because of andrew playing in the style of andrew. FoS Groupthink.
TO: Answers questions, gives a couple of read/comment things. Vote on [L] no longer random due to [L] in the sinceritytangent.
Jase: More townposting, gives good reasoning for andrew being scum.
[L]: Snaps that everyone is an idiot. Calls TO's arguments pointless.
UnclePain: Asks relevant questions to everyone. Town feeling.
SC: Attacks [L] for "idiocy" post, says Jase now leaning town, says andrew acting anti-town.
Zdenek: Corrects pianist's mistaken belief that he'd voted me=weird. Accuses StefanB of mudslinging, and gives a couple of reads some with reasons.
imaginality answers UnclePain, makes case on StefanB.
[L] claims to have FoS'ed SC because SC claimed to "know the lay of the land". SC hadn't. Conlusion: [L] is lying scum. I cannot think of any town motivation for this move.
Also claims TO acting scummily withou giving any kind of case, claims there was never any logical reason to suspect Jase (?!), continues sinceritytangent.

Start of P4: Jase is quite scummy & [L] is slightly scummy, mostly null.
End of P4: Jase is town, [L] is scum.

Page #5:
StefanB calls UnclePain town, says game is confusing. Votes Me=Weird on grounds of thinking their reads are bad and go only after easy targets.
Me=Weird votes StefanB after refuting his points and commenting on sinceritytangent/SC/[L]
SC calls [L] on "lie of the land"
StefanB makes a post which continues to misinterpret Zdenek after the actual meaning of the post has been explained. Post is generally suspicious. Claims to be active lurking. -_- Then brings up a joke from the start of RVS.
Groupthink replaces out.
Me=Weird vs StefanB continues
Yabbaguy votes SC and says will give more of a case later
Andrew posts some decent posts for a change. Uses actual logic to vote for StefanB and makes a positive suggestion for formatting.
Jase clearly states that earlier scummy play was a reaction test.

In my opinion reaction-tests are not scummy because they provide conversation for town. It's a pro-town move, if anything.

Followed by an unexplained unvote of TO.
So it makes perfect sense for scum [L] to try to claim to be reaction testing later when questioned. This remark is not scummy, but claiming to have been reaction-testing and therefore having been acting in the interests of the town is a scummy way to attempt to explain an outright lie, or other really weird in a non-town way bits of play.
StefanB asks people to please make use of D1 to scumhunt, even if they do decide to eventually lynch him. StefanB vs Me=Weird seems to be a result of misunderstandings. Claims he will not defend himself from people he thinks are scum. Not a great post , but a non-scummy one.
Imaginality agrees on using the day, still thinks StefanB is scum. Gives a case.

Haven't had the promised andrew case by this point , I think.
Would also like yabbaguy's case on SC.

Page #6:
Uncle Pain is my favourite player in this game so far.
[L] admits to lying about SC
Zdenek votes [L] for the lie.
Jase calls out [L] for claiming there was no logical reason to lynch Jase earlier, and comments on Pianist's attack on SC for attacking Jase, when pianist had also done so.
Me=Weird vs StefanB again
[L] does a non-defense of lying to attack SC.
Mist replaces GroupThink
Pianist gives an analytic post, votes [L].
TO asks [L] about unvote, answers UnclePain
imaginality gives reasons for calling StefanB scum, says andrew's argument feels stretched.
Mist posts reads, asks StefanB to self-hammer?! That's not a town move. Uncle Pain says as much in the next post.
Jase: andrew is scum or VI
andrew: "I'm v/la"

Still waiting on yabba 's SC case and the imaginality andrew case, unless it's just that his argument seemed stretched.

V/LA until Saturday

Hope to finish the reread by then.

Noted

[tarsonisocelot]

tarsonisocelot: OMGUS, Bandwagoner.

lol, really?
I've been on your wagon the whole time. And you attacked me right after I voted you in RVS.

No analysis or reread included here because I have neither time nor the reread summary I'm making with me.

[tarsonisocelot]

Post flip of [L], StefanB as vanilla town.
Will attempt to leave out non-analytic points

Page #7:
Yabbaguy gives reads again

StefanB votes Mist for telling him to self-vote

Scumpoints for Mist

UnclePain FoSs yabbaguy for calling StefanB obvtown while StefanB was being suspicious enough to almost get lynched.

yabba could do more than say "read his ISO" to show hime as non-scum, if yabba does think he's obvtown rather than being scum who knows StefanB is town

Townpost from pianist

StefanB defends well, calls mist on a weird post. Townpoints for StefanB. StefanB calls people on wagon scum and it is mistaken for a scumslip.

Yes, yabbaguy, my posts aren't neat, concise and informative like yours. It's not because I'm scum, it's because I'm not very good at this game. No, I did not contribute more substantially at this stage in any of the other games I was in - I was borderline inactive in a couple on D1.

Yabba claims that [L] is a terrible wagon, that StefanB is a terrible wagon and votes TO.

When did [L] stop being on your probable scumlist? In your last list, you had [L] as more likely to be scum than me, at what point did that change and why? (I accept that my lack of contribution is a valid reason to vote for me, but I want to know what made you decide [L] was town enough to be a terrible wagon.

Me=Weird asks yabbaguy to state StefanB towncase. Then [L] says that being ambivalent is enough reason to not have a vote on anyone on D1, and that they only look scummy when playing town. -_- I know now that [L] is town, but that is not a good defense.
Yabba makes a couple of statements that StefanB's non-slip is not a slip, that [L] is not actually a terrible wagon but an ok one and that TO is a better wagon (not accompanied by reasons).

I want yabbaguy to be town and have had a townread on him so far, but reading after the flips then I'm not so sure.

Page #8:
Yabba continues to call StefanB and [L] town and [L]'s wagon is now not ok but a mistake. Says TO going after [L] is scummy but not why. Does not give [L] or StefanB town case, just says they are. Again.

redtail arrives and posts a scum list, most of which appears ok, though there isn't really anything new in it that I can see.

StefanB defends self, does little scumhunting.

UnclePain restates FoS on yabba and clarifies it. Townposting also goes into other wagons/reads. Like.

Redtail gets townpoints for a post that makes sense and seems pro-town.

StefanB posts defence and explanation of their play over several posts spreading onto P9. Seems townier than before.

Page #9: (multiple posts make this go faster, as does attempting to exclude any interactions that don't seem explicilty relevant right now)

Why did [L] play like that as town? I don't understand.

[L], if you could explain things like the SC "lie of the land" after the game it would be very nice.

Mist has evolved into Prox.
Scumhunting from StefanB. Town-ness rising.

Not much on this page.

Page #10:

[L]: "Put me at L-1 already." -_-

andrew has evolved into C-worl
Prox: " Well today seems (deceptively?) simple. Ocelot is the most scummy. VOTE: ocelot.

My post got deled...demotivated. Retype later. Sorry. But check out ocelot iso."

What about the ISO is scummy? You have to give a reason that an ISO is scummy, not just wave your hand at it an say 'go take a look, they're scum in there'.

Crazypianist gives some reads, and calls yabba vs uncle pain town vs town. I now know that both the main suspects in it are definitely town ([L] and me, though you won't necessarily take my word for it about me).
Imaginality gets townpoints from me for #249.

Still haven't seen yabbaguy's SC/redtail case.

This post is getting long now so I'll stop it here. Almost up to date.

[tarsonisocelot]

Page #11:

Imaginality posts andrew case.

DemonHybrid replaces StefanB then posts a nice, logical, analytical page-by-page summary. I want to be like Demonhybrid when I grow up.

Me=Weird gives summary of [L]'s lie to DH as part of a useful post.

Most of this page was consumed by the replacement issue.
One-liners from C-worl and [L], but they are at least rlelvant. [L] claims VT.

Page #12:
C-Worl asks everyone to justify the wagon they are on. Seems pro-town, but the post also says C-Worl has no suspects. At P12, he should have.

FoS: C-Worl

Imaginality and Me=Weird criticize C-Worl's characterisation of them as staying off big wagins when they were both on StefanB's.

[L] makes case against me. I find the putting gendered pronouns in brackets with question marks here to be insulting, especially as my gender was stated in one of the posts quoted here. I also disagree with parts of the case.

Jase also questions C-Worl's characterisation.

C-Worl: "Why wait before hammering?"

To use the rest of the day to get more information? To get more interactions? Because sometimes something happens that completely shifts the game around?

Jase posts town reasons to not end the day.

[L] analyses the wagon against her with a few one liners, not all of which make sense/match the game. Accuses TO of being an SK, when there is no evidence of one existing.

There continues to be no such evidence

Page #13:
C-Worl hammers.

At the end of Day 1, with [L] innocent, I consider C-Worl to be the scummiest player for lack of real scumhunting while attempting to appear to be contributing encouraging other to early lynch and then doing so himself when he got the chance.

yabbaguy: Got that SC/redtail slot case you mentioned earlier? I know you decided fairly early on that StefanB(whose slot was NKed) was obvtown, why though did you flip between [L] wagon terrible and [L] is an okay lynch more than once?

I'm going to stop my re-read here and try to stay in the present Day 2.

The post with the no analysis/reread was made using a different computer, while I didn't have access to this one. I didn't think to transfer the reread doc onto my external to have with me so I had no access to this. In these last two posts I've attempted to make it less information and more analysis, but I don't know how well I've done at that.

[tarsonisocelot]

Well simply, and you're going to love this, because I'm town. Those first two sentences are what Yabba was doing and they are what you were ignoring in the middle of your misrep. It's only a connection if he gets lynched. When I say use the stall I mean derail the wagon and get someone else lynched. If I remember correctly TO had some votes on him too. If [L] had been scum like I thought he was then waiting could've caused the wagon to die and a townie would've gotten lynch. You can push me for information all you want but I don't have any information I can give you. I'm just saying if you really wanted to catch scum it might help if you look elsewhere because, here it comes again, for those of you with the benefit of flash photography, I'm town.

I'm female, as is [L].

If you want anyone to believe you are town stop trying to defend by yelling "I'm town!". Actually, properly scumhunt. If you started actin like the townie you claim to be we might begin to believe you. (But after your quickhammer and generally scummy play yesterday plus your terrible defense today you'd have to be amazingly obvtown from now on for that to happen.)

I'm willing to hammer C-Worl, but not until much nearer the deadline. Also, I think we should avoid putting him in the position to quickhammer himself.


PEdit: Thanks yabbaguy. Wouldn't GroupThink providing a reasoning for their unexplained vote have been helpful though? The main reason I wanted you to state that case is because you said you were going to but then didn't, so I wanted to check you actually did have a case.

I'm trying to be more useful, but I'm not great at analysing small amounts of information.

[tarsonisocelot]

Will someone please temporarily unvote C-Worl before they have the chance to self-hammer and cut the day short by 17 days?


Uncle Pain: I have class in a few minutes, so I don't have time now to make a post of my current views/reasons, but I will do so before the end of Saturday. I'm not going to do a plain scummiest to towniest, because I feel that that allows you to avoid justifying most of your reads. As town that could lead to mistakes in some players placement, and as scum the benefits of being able to suspect someone without providing proper reasoning are obvious.

[tarsonisocelot]

I'm paranoid about a self-hammer because in several of the games I've played then scum who considered their lynch inevitable have quickhammered themselves to cut short discussion. One did so in almost the exact situation C-Worl is in (they had quickhammered a townie on D1, then quickhammered themself as soon as they got to L-1 just 3 pages into D2).

[tarsonisocelot]

C-Worl, for obvious reasons I and others have posted, is at the top of my scumlist.

redtail/SC: I didn't get anything much from SC. redtail started off by providing a post giving reads on all players with a couple of justifications for each, which is good but all the reads contined in it were decidedly safe. Next posts are made of questions, some useful others not. Gets defensive very easily.
I dislike this post:

VOTE: C-Worl

The hammer was scummy scummy scummy. There's no way around that. And his content beyond that is not fantastic (certainly not exceptionally townie).
If we agree not to lynch C-Worl for this, I'm still going back to TO, based on supreme IIoA and general lack of scumhunting.

And not because he wants to lynch me. It seems like an attempt to see how easily he could shift the wagon from his buddy onto someone else. Verdict: Leaning scum.

Me=Weird generally seems to have been contributing throughout the game though this has decreased lately. There have been a few things that have seemed less town. The most glaring is in ISO#14, where they attempt to directly compare a situation where a cop has a guilty on someone with C-Worl's situation, where he's only very likely scum. Overal verdict: Null

Yabbaguy: Towngambit is town. Generates useflu information and gives reads throughout. There are a few inconsistencies, such as where he's not sure if [L] is an ok wagon or a terrible one but I think scum would have been more careful to avoid this. Not much to say other than it's a shame yabba is replacing out and yabba-slot is town.

crazypianist: Posts lots of walls. Had played with [L]scum before and said that [L] had played differently then while downplaying that fact in the middle of one wall. Am I still "next"? What's your take on the SC/redtail slot? 'yabba vs Uncle Pain looks town vs town-ish' if pianist is scum we should look into this. Verdict: Null, slight scum tilt.

Zdenek is null leaning town. Several decent posts but want to hear more.
imaginality started off as a slight scumread for me after yabba's gambit, but several townposts since have given me a townread.
UnclePain: RVS->clarification->useful questions->townposting=>townread
Jase: Started scummy then became useful. Townread.
Prox-slot: Null due to non-contribution. Slight town-lean because surely at least one of them would have been more interested if the slot was scum.

Slightly late due to an AGM going for longer than expected.

[tarsonisocelot]

Yeah, I know he isn't cop guilty, but my point was that we shouldn't wait til deadline to lynch just because we can. But why do you see it as scummy?
Sorry for lack of activity lately. Had a lot on my plate.

I see it as attempting to get people to judge reponses to the situation at hand as though it were a different situation with different optimal play. Your post did not seem to be proposing a hypothetical situation for theory discussion (which would have been yet another tangential, unuseful on if it had been, we've had enough of those on D1), it seemed more like you were trying to get us to treat C-Worl as cop guilty. That's why I see it as scummy play.
If someone else had posted that comment about cop-guilties at the point you did, would you view it as town, neutral, scummy or irrelevant?

[tarsonisocelot]

Bvoigt, my reads are a couple of posts up on this page. Post#386.

[tarsonisocelot]

About my defending thing, let me rephrase it as “I didn’t intend to defend him”. Yes, I actually do defend him by criticising arguments against him. My motivation however was and is not to rid him of attacks/attackers but to check out the ones attacking him because of the reasons they gave. At last Zdenek gave me some usable answer to my question.
Of course you are free to believe in any connection between redtail896 and me and I find it important that you at least consider it; ignoring clues doesn’t help town. Still, I’d like to state that, to my current knowledge, I’m not affiliated with him.

Scumpoints for UnclePain.

[tarsonisocelot]

Well ok so I looked back at c-worl from D1, and there isn't much there the reasons I have to lynch him are, that was a really really bad hammer, I had just been talking about scum doing what c-worl did which I think may have given him the idea, scum were pretty much guaranteed to have been on the L wagon and the most obvious place to look is that hammer. All said I'm content with a c-worl lynch, but I'm not content with the lack of competing wagons/information today. Since nobody else did much scum hunting outside of sheeping along with the C-worl wagon I guess the falls to me. When I get back from V/LA (or before maaaaaybe) I'm gonna sit the hell down and actually do that analysis on UP, red, and me=w that I've been stalling on. Might throw in some others too if anyone catches my eye, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. Let's not end the day ok? I want some real discussion. Even if I have to drive it forward personally.

Are you going to look into just ISO's or also associations?
Post as you go along and when I have time I'll do some of what hasn't yet been posted.

LA: Sunday through Monday, then Thursday through Monday - I'll be able to get online but won't have time for in-depth posts due to a heavy courseload

[tarsonisocelot]

Of course you are free to believe in any connection between redtail896 and me and I find it important that you at least consider it; ignoring clues doesn’t help town. Still, I’d like to state that, to my current knowledge, I’m not affiliated with him.

This pair of sentences. I really don't like them. Why would someone say things in this manner as town? (I'd like an answer from UnclePain as well as any other ideas people have.)

The read I gave for Prox-slot is null, with a slight caveat that I think it likely that >=1/3 players that replace out after being very inactive would find a scum role or a PR interesting enough to put in the minimum amount of effort to stay in the game. The slot itself has been inactive largely because those assigned to it appear to not have attempted to play, and has yet to provide material so my slight caveat is all I have to go on. If you think you can make a scum case on it (not just a lurk-case) then please do so.

[tarsonisocelot]

Jase = +10 scumpoints

Explanation please. This is far from obvious.

The lack of Jase in his "WIFOM" post made it seem like he was distancing from the person who was deciding to lynch him (READ: waiting for people to jump off his wagon) all day long.
Take it in jest. Nothing's for certain yet.

When I write WIFOM posts when my lynch is inevitable I take care to mention all but a couple of people - the number of people most player expect to be scum with me - especially for people like you to notice. If I'm naming a few people I make sure to have scum and town in the group.
The lack of Jase in the WIFOM post of C-Worl says nothing about Jase. The only way you could gain anything useful from that post would be if C-Worl wrote them formulaically and you knew the pattern.

As a town we should completely ignore C-Worl's post-hammer posting.

[tarsonisocelot]

As a town we should completely ignore C-Worl's post-hammer posting.

Did C-worl make a wifom post? I hadn't noticed, and NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE. Comprende?

There is no need to be aggressive. crazypianist had made a post attempting to analyse the lack of Jase in the WIFOM post which you definitely saw. I felt the need to say why that's a bad idea and was not online between the post and nightfall.
Any reason you'd prefer to pretend that C-Worl didn't start making WIFOM posts rather than just ignoring their content as insignificant?

I probably won't have the chance to analyse links with C-Worl until next week. As C-Worl is the only current confirmed scum interactions with him are more significant than others. Jase, before you spend too much time on red/UP interaction reading could you explain how and why they would make good partners for C-Worl?

Unless the link analysis/next few days of posting changes my mind I will probably vote redtail then.

[tarsonisocelot]

As a town we should completely ignore C-Worl's post-hammer posting.

Did C-worl make a wifom post? I hadn't noticed, and NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE. Comprende?

There is no need to be aggressive. crazypianist had made a post attempting to analyse the lack of Jase in the WIFOM post which you definitely saw. I felt the need to say why that's a bad idea and was not online between the post and nightfall.
Any reason you'd prefer to pretend that C-Worl didn't start making WIFOM posts rather than just ignoring their content as insignificant?

I probably won't have the chance to analyse links with C-Worl until next week. As C-Worl is the only current confirmed scum interactions with him are more significant than others. Jase, before you spend too much time on red/UP interaction reading could you explain how and why they would make good partners for C-Worl?

Unless the link analysis/next few days of posting changes my mind I will probably vote redtail then.

Aggressive about what? I'm certain I have no idea what you mean.

You guys are over-analyzing this and falling right into his trap.

I have a hunch.
VOTE: RangeroftheNorth

I'm not analysing the wifom. You are the only person who has attempted to do that. Was that a mistake yesterday?

I am analysing Jase's response.

[tarsonisocelot]

Jase: The main WIFOM post was #437. Crazypianist attempted to analyse it and expressed a belief that that was useful in #443/445/447. That was one page ago. Resd the thread.

Crazypianist: Why did you try to analyse the WIFOM yesterday when you declared today that doing so was falling into a trap?

[tarsonisocelot]

VOTE: Jase
Until you stop being a dick and start playing for the town again.
Telling blatant easily disproven lies is a null tell as it's as likely to come from troll town as scum, but doing so repeatedly in a way that only derails discussion is definitely anti-town.

[tarsonisocelot]

Bluh. The Point is to avoid having everyone post "Yeah guys let's ignore c-worls WIFOM". Yes we are going to do that. No I don't want to hear that everyone agrees that "Yeah let's do that". I know it's a bad idea to look into, and so does everyone else. I was hoping that my first post on the matter would have been the end of the c-wifom discussion but that kinda got kicked in the head when TO took that post and ran with it. Hopefully This Post will be the end of that discussion.

I've gotta wonder if TOs willingness to pursue a trivial sidecase, and place a vote until I stop being a dick (being a dick is my natural state thank you very much) speaks to her alignment at all. Specifically spending the time to "analyze" my post and having it culminating with a vote that is essentially "Stop that" and not one that is "You're scum".

You do realize that the only reason I posted was to say to someone who apparently at the time did not see attempting to analyse C-WIFOM as pure folly that it was, and that no-one was likely to comment further? Nope, not willing to put the past page from you away until I've reread you or you've posted something actually useful.
You were scummy at the start of the game, then began to play townie and I'm not just going to overlook the past few posts of yours which have been "wtf?" derailing.

I'm not voting you because you're being annoying, I'm voting you because you're being weird in a way which disrupts discussion - and is therefore anti-town.

The second half of your post appears to attempt to non-confrontationally suggest you think I'm scum. If so then why? Make a case. If not then why post that?

[tarsonisocelot]

Hi Setael, chkflip.

Setael/UnclePain: Could you please attempt to be concise. I'm really not looking forward to reading through those walls.

[tarsonisocelot]

That is me being concise. You don't want to see long-winded.

Ohjoy. I'll leave reading this until I have nothing left to do that can't be done with a headache.

[tarsonisocelot]

No question for me? I feel left out.

[tarsonisocelot]

UP: This is going to be my second time quoting myself on this.

Anyhow. My take on the possible Red/UP connection. Red very rarely speaks of UP at all. I read this yesterday and I do believe I counted twice in total. Once in his list of reads, and one other time. No conflict between the two is initiated by Red.

UP on the other hand talks about Red plenty. However pretty much all of it was non confrontational which could be relevant.

That's just something to keep in mind really. I don't have much other reason to suspect either of them as scum. If one flips scum at some point in the game we may want to look at the other good and hard.

I wonder though why you're so eager to hear what I have to say on the matter. Any reason?

TO: You seem to have dropped your case against me. Sort of suddenly at that. Care to explain?

Not planning on dropping it. Postponing it until my head stops hurting enough to read the walls.
You also stopped the weirdness that was the main reason behind my vote.

[tarsonisocelot]

Will post within 24 hours.

VOTE: crazypianist1116
Time's up, like, three days ago. Content plz.

UNVOTE: VOTE: crazypianist1116

Skimmed the walls. Lynch preference of those most involved (level of scumminess): Zdenek>Setael>Uncle Pain (whose acronym I keep misreading as undead penguin).

[tarsonisocelot]

Who are my top two suspects? Setael and crazypianist, I guess. I don't think much of the spamwalls. They really don't help the game at all, and I really want UP and setael to consolidate their stuff into a few main points.
This game has come to a standstill. We need to get a lynch going, so if necessary I will go for CP.
TIO, why do you suspect them in that order? Also, why are you voting someone who isn't on that list at all.

Those are the people who have been posting walls. Out of theose three people I find Zdenek scummiest, then Setael, then UP.
I find CP scummier than any of them for now.

[tarsonisocelot]

Who are my top two suspects? Setael and crazypianist, I guess. I don't think much of the spamwalls. They really don't help the game at all, and I really want UP and setael to consolidate their stuff into a few main points.
This game has come to a standstill. We need to get a lynch going, so if necessary I will go for CP.
TIO,

why do you suspect them in that order

? Also, why are you voting someone who isn't on that list at all.

Those are the people who have been posting walls. Out of theose three people I find Zdenek scummiest, then Setael, then UP.
I find CP scummier than any of them for now.

That doesn't really answer that at all.

It answers why I'm voting someone else. Forgot to include the rest of that answer.
I have had a townread on UP for a while, The slot that Setael filled was null but Setael has been townie. Zdenek has been a null read and remains one by himself.
Add the contents of Setaels's posts and Zdenek looks like they may be scum. If we lynch Zdenek and they flip scum, then UP scum is likely. Until then they are the towniest of those three players.

PEdit: Thanks Setael.

[tarsonisocelot]

UNVOTE: Pine
VOTE: TO

I find it super weird that when most of the heat was (rightfully) on C-Worl the most you did was give him a FoS. Care to explain why you didn't think he warranted a vote?

Weird, I understand you want me to be more active, but I'm not the only one. And this is how I play the game. You can vote me if you think this is scummy? Or you could always ask me what I think about suchandsuch instead of just complaining about my lack of posting.

FoS

: Me=SuperWierd

I considered there to be a significant risk of an early hammer. I had hoped we could get more out of the day. So I did not vote. My fear was based on Pine hammering town the same scummy way C-Worl did, followed by quickhammering himself. It proved justified.

Jase: You're back to playing town. From now on I'll try to ignore your occasional forays into Wtfland and stick with my town read on your slot. The way you chose to react to me saying we shouldn't analyse C-Worl's WIFOM confused the hell out of me, but I'll acknowledge now that it doesn't appear scum-motivated.

Zdenek alone is a null read. If they turn out to be scum that will change my UP read from town to scum. My read on UP has not changed.

[tarsonisocelot]

Unvote

. I need to ISO TO.

Erm, you’re backing away from your case? What makes you so unsure about it suddenly? I thought you were convinced of my scumminess, taken by itself as well as connected to Zdenek?

This is just weird. Are you seriously trying to make me look suspicious for NOT tunneling? What do YOU think of TO's statement that she finds both you and Zdenek town (him less so but meh) but if Zdenek flipped scum you'd be guaranteed scum? I have a huge problem with it, especially considering she hasn't said what if anything she agrees with as far a connections between you 2. I'm surprised you don't have a problem with it as well IF you're not scum with zdenek.

I never said guaranteed. I never said Zdenek was town, I said null. From skimming the walls I got the feeling they were being a little defensive of one another. That could be a sign of thinking the other is town, of thinking that you, Setael, are scum or of being scumbuddies. A flip would eliminate at least one of those possibilities.

[tarsonisocelot]

Not getting much of a read either way on mastin, although it does strike me as a bit odd that he disapproves of a wagon on someone he doesn't have a read on yet.
Another point against TIO is that he insists his town read on UP hasn't changed, he's still put UP on his top 3 scumlist, without much reasons.

Me=Weird: Why do you suspect Setael and Pine most? Setael because of her walls? Pine because of… what exactly? Your last statement about crazypianist1116 was on Day 2 in #429 where you read him as null-scum.

Seriously, read my posts. I'm not going to answer this question again. I initially suspected RotN for completely non-contributing, plus (lack of) interactions from C-worl, and setael hasn't changed that. The huge wall post cases are easy to fake as scum, as I've seen happen multiple times.
About pine, I don't? Maybe you're thinking of chk, now mastin, who I somewhat suspected because of trying to lynch lurkers and not really interacting with anyone.

Misrep. That list isn't a scumlist. It's current reads on the people who've been bombarding the thread with walls.

[tarsonisocelot]

Also, at TIO, I'm talking about this scumlist:

Skimmed the walls. Lynch preference of those most involved (level of scumminess): Zdenek>Setael>Uncle Pain (whose acronym I keep misreading as undead penguin).

of those most involved

Not a full list. A list of only those who posted walls.
UNVOTE: VOTE: Me=Weird

[tarsonisocelot]

Zdenek: Setael’s case revealed some interesting oddities in his play which he couldn’t clean himself from. Apart from that, his play has been contributive in a pro-town way and he hasn’t made any major slips. Null-town.

This. This is the read you give on your buddy when you don't feel like you can afford to bus him. UP is giving Zdenek a free ride that makes absolutely no sense unless they're both scum.

UNVOTE:
I'm going with this reasoning.
VOTE: Zdenek

Mastin2:

Have you finished working yet? You should hardclaim now.

[tarsonisocelot]

Notice that there is no stated threat to hammer Mastin (yet), he should not claim.

Mastin2 softclaimed and said he would hardclaim later. That hardclaim has not yet materialised.

[tarsonisocelot]

I thought this was a cop breadcrumb.

Zdenek is leaving me not so pleased but I guess we'll see what comes of that.

and while I had issues with him, they weren't enough for me to ignore that.

How exactly did you see this as a cop breadcrumb?


I'm sticking with my vote. I was expecting mastin to claim something along the lines of bodyguard after the "dying is doing my job" post and I'm not accepting Zdenek's reasoning for protecting CP.

[tarsonisocelot]

Short day, folks. I'm the cop (that breadcrumb was legit) and I have a guilty on Imaginality. CP was roleblocked the first two nights.

Vote: Imaginality

VOTE: Imaginality