Mini 1148 -- Spare Me Mafia (Game Over)

[Duplicity]

You've stated you have a town-read on IS already. I've stated I have a town-read on IS. If we both have strong town-reads than there's no reason behind not following what I've stated already.

With that said, heck how will him checking you prove his claim, he will just say VT and will be right about 90% of the time given the current claims in the thread.

[Umbrage]

SCUM DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS A DOC.

THEREFORE SCUM WON'T KILL HIM FOR FEAR OF A PROTECT.

WIFOM IS GOOD FOR SCUM.

YOUR PLAN TAKES THAT AWAY AND TELLS SCUM EXACTLY WHO TO KILL.

[Umbrage]

YES I HAVE A TOWN READ ON HIM.

BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

YOU COULD BE WRONG.

MY PLAN TAKES THAT INTO ACCOUNT.

MY PLAN LEAVES NOTHING TO CHANCE.

[Apokalyptika]

If you're attempting to say that you believe outting the doctor is a scum-tell I will just laugh, and if you're attempting to say there's a roleblocker I will laugh harder. If there's a roleblocker you would have been roleblocked last night, therefore we can rule out that possibilty.

If we do indeed have a doctor claim it would have to be one of the following people: Apok, Tony, Umbrage, Me. That's it, so lets consider these as P1, P2, P3, P4 and let P1 be the doctor.

If we lynch P2 and P3 today.
If P1 dies at night, you check either Vezo/Nacho.

This means tommorow the following people would be alive:
IS, P4, Vezo, Nacho, Fishy.

You would either have:
A) A clearance on Vezo/Nacho therefore clearing them both while still having a clearance on Fishy meaning P4 would have to be the last scum to you, win.
B) A guilty on Vezo/Nacho meaning you would know both of the remaining mafia, win.

But you just said

Your plan doesn't take into account the fact that there's likely no doctor in the game and that IS will die tonight leaving you with close to nothing tommorow.

If there is no doctor, your plan utterly fails. You don't think there is a doctor. Therefore, in your own view, your plan should utterly fail.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, scum will shoot him regardless if they think there's a doctor or not, it's the only chance they have in winning.

If there's a doctor then yes we automatic win, but that's the same thing as doctor claiming out loud now which would also be automatic win.
If there's no doctor, he dies and we've wasted a second spare vote on him.

[Duplicity]

Apok. I'm attempting to say that there's no fucking reason to put a second vote on IS because I believe the likelyhood of him dying tonight is massive, I've said that the entire fucking day. That's why I want a mass-claim, if there's a doctor claim I would happily place my spare vote on him and accept death to what I believe would be an almost automatic win. If there's no doctor claim then we don't waste a fucking spare vote on something useless.

[Internet Stranger]

How do you know im going to die anyways Dupe? I didnt die last night and you showed absolutely no fear regarding my safety yesterday. Are you going to shoot me tonight Dupe? Maybe stab me in the heart? Strangle me in the dead of night? Is that it Dupe? Is that what youre trying to tell us? What are you trying to hide, Dupe? Afraid I may uncover something about you? Afraid im going to investigate you tonight?

[Duplicity]

How do you know im going to die anyways Dupe? I didnt die last night and you showed absolutely no fear regarding my safety yesterday. Are you going to shoot me tonight Dupe? Maybe stab me in the heart? Strangle me in the dead of night? Is that it Dupe? Is that what youre trying to tell us? What are you trying to hide, Dupe? Afraid I may uncover something about you? Afraid im going to investigate you tonight?

Can you read the fucking post please.

[vezokpiraka]

Is needs a second vote because we need to kill tow people today.

Also I won't do with the plan. I want to live till the end. If I am not alive at the end my subconscius doesn't think that we won.

Also if you kill one of either me or nacho scum kills the other at night. Fishy is treestump so he is also BP. Now go make another plan that can't kill me.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, scum will shoot him regardless if they think there's a doctor or not, it's the only chance they have in winning.

If there's a doctor then yes we automatic win, but that's the same thing as doctor claiming out loud now which would also be automatic win.
If there's no doctor, he dies and we've wasted a second spare vote on him.

No. Because by killing vezok, we learn Nacho's alignment. We either have confirmed town, or confirmed scum. If he's confirmed town, then scum will have to kill him, because confirmed town is more dangerous than any PR. Therefore IS lives another night, and we get another investigation.

I'm attempting to say that there's no fucking reason to put a second vote on IS because I believe the likelyhood of him dying tonight is massive, I've said that the entire fucking day. That's why I want a mass-claim, if there's a doctor claim I would happily place my spare vote on him and accept death to what I believe would be an almost automatic win. If there's no doctor claim then we don't waste a fucking spare vote on something useless.

There is only one reason you would want to conserve spare votes: you want to make sure somebody lives through the day. Who?

Also I won't do with the plan. I want to live till the end. If I am not alive at the end my subconscius doesn't think that we won.

Also if you kill one of either me or nacho scum kills the other at night.

Are you town?

If you are town, it doesn't matter if you die. You still win with the town.

Right now, you two are pretty much unlynchable. This means that if you are town, you will get the NK. If there is a Serial Killer, then there is a very good chance that you will BOTH die in one night.

I know it seems counter-intuitive. But if you are town, this will lead to a win.

When you die, Nacho becomes confirmed town. This means scum have the following choice:

A) Kill Nacho and let IS live another night, which means he gets another investigation and we get another confirmed town.

B) Kill IS and let confirmed town Nacho live for tomorrow.

Either way, we end up with confirmed town tomorrow.

If we don't kill you, then IS will die, and we get no confirmed town.

If you are town, then killing either you or Nacho today gives you the best chance of winning.

You just have to spare IS.

Here is the plan:

Apok, spare Nacho.

Nacho, spare IS.

IS, spare Tony.

Tony, spare Umbrage.

vezok, spare IS.

This is the best plan to get a town win.

[Duplicity]

No. Because by killing vezok, we learn Nacho's alignment. We either have confirmed town, or confirmed scum. If he's confirmed town, then scum will have to kill him, because confirmed town is more dangerous than any PR. Therefore IS lives another night, and we get another investigation.

You seem to be highly of the opinion that there is a doctor, wouldn't IS checking Vezo/Nacho therefore be more optimal?

There is only one reason you would want to conserve spare votes: you want to make sure somebody lives through the day. Who?

I had/have multiple town-reads, so yes after I finish rethinking through them I'm sure there will be somebody that I want to assure lives.

This is the best plan to get a town win.

Your plan completly ignores the fact that mafia don't have to follow through with it, considering the vig seems to be dead the risks of them doing their own thing is close to minimal.

[Umbrage]

You seem to be highly of the opinion that there is a doctor, wouldn't IS checking Vezo/Nacho therefore be more optimal?

That's not needed. Killing one of them confirms the other. IS can confirm himself and possibly somebody else. This gives the scum a really nasty piece of WIFOM of whom to kill, doctor or no.

had/have multiple town-reads, so yes after I finish rethinking through them I'm sure there will be somebody that I want to assure lives.

And what if there isn't? What if there are two people you want to kill? Then you might as well give IS a spare vote. You must have a reason for denying him the vote NOW. What is it?

Your plan completly ignores the fact that mafia don't have to follow through with it, considering the vig seems to be dead the risks of them doing their own thing is close to minimal.

The only people who would have any reason to go against the plan are scum. We simply kill them. Example: you are resisting the plan, so I make sure you are not part of the plan.

Your argument is basically "scum will screw it up". But there is nothing scum can do to destroy the plan. If IS is scum, we are covered. If Nacho and vezok are scum, we are covered. There are no holes.

You're just fearmongering. Try and point out specific ways the plan can fail. Because this isn't pro-town. Instead of addressing the problems and creating a solution that benefits town, your answer is 'why bother?'. Is that because the only way you can win as scum is by shooting down this plan before it takes off?

[Duplicity]

That's not needed. Killing one of them confirms the other. IS can confirm himself and possibly somebody else. This gives the scum a really nasty piece of WIFOM of whom to kill, doctor or no.

Lets assume for a second that we follow your plan and lynch Vezo and msylnch with both of us flipping town. If there's no doctor IS dies tonight leaving Nacho and Fishy alive as clears with you, Tony and Apok as unclear, what do you do then?

And what if there isn't? What if there are two people you want to kill? Then you might as well give IS a spare vote. You must have a reason for denying him the vote NOW. What is it?

This will be decided upon finalization of my reads.

Your argument is basically "scum will screw it up". But there is nothing scum can do to destroy the plan. If IS is scum, we are covered. If Nacho and vezok are scum, we are covered. There are no holes.

You're just fearmongering. Try and point out specific ways the plan can fail. Because this isn't pro-town. Instead of addressing the problems and creating a solution that benefits town, your answer is 'why bother?'. Is that because the only way you can win as scum is by shooting down this plan before it takes off?

You want me to address the problems then sure I will. If Vezo and Nacho are scum, neither of them are going to be okay with the other one dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has already failed. If Vezo and Nacho are town, neither of them are going to be okay with someone they know is town for sure dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has failed already.

See the issue now?

I'm attempting to work out what mafias hinderance is, I have been for a long time and no one is attempting to assist me. There has to be something put in place to prevent this from happening and instead of bickering with me or attempting to ignore what I am saying I would appreciate if you discuss this with me logically.

[Internet Stranger]

I dont want to lose this game because we didnt do our due diligence and made sure that Nacho and Vezo arent scum. Dupe clearly isnt interested in clearing Nacho and Vezo since he doesnt want to confirm them either via death or via investigation. All dupe wants to do is stall and come up with the plans where the town gets hurt the most.

Again Dupe, whats your angle? What are you trying to accomplish here? Whatever it is, its definitely not pro-town.

Vezo, We absolutely MUST confirm you or Nacho, surely you understand that right? You understand that we cant just take your word for it, right? "Dont worry, trust me" is exactly what the scum would say, so you have to come up with another way to convince us. There are only two ways to do it, via death or via investigation.

If I am to get an investigation, someone has to volunteer to sacrifice themselves, otherwise the plan wont work because of NullFishy (of which I initially forgot about his null vote). What this essentially does is clear two people in one night instead of sitting around and waiting for the scum to decide for us. Vezo how do you propose we setup the votes today? Who wants to make the sacrifice?

Dupe wants us to just sit still and very quietly while the scum continues to pick us off. I say fuck that, I want to find those bastard scum. I want to find them if they are trying a ballsy gambit (Vezo/Nacho) or if they are trying to squirrel their way to victory somehow (Dupe).

Dupe pretty much says that he is going to kill me tonight anyways, so does that mean that we should just lay down, waste our time and just simply let it happen? Or do we take the chance, clear an extra person now and try for the investigation tomorrow anyways? If someone is going to die, why not let them die for the town instead of dying for the scum? I rather we pick who lives and dies than the scum, dont you?

[Duplicity]

RC, I apologise for this post but I really believe it's needed, I've attempted to stand back and refrain from hurling insults while watching pure stupidit but I won't do it any longer.

InternetStranger, I have never once said I want to stand back and let Nacho and Vezo glide through the game, I'm infact doing the opposite you dim witted piece of shit, I'm trying to work out if they're mafia what we fucking can do to preven them from cross-sparing. Now get of your fucking high horse moron and read my posts, surely the CK flip should have showed you how bad your performance is this game.

I know how painful IS can frustrate a person from first hand experience, so I'm going to allow this.

[vezokpiraka]

We aren't dying. We are town.

We don't care if you don't believe us. There is nothing you can do to kill us.

You can trust us or argue with us. The problem is: You can't kill us.

[Internet Stranger]

Oh back to this, you still want to out whatever other power roles we have out there. You realize that the scum will KILL THEM, right?

The only chance we have is secrecy. CK turned out to be a way to break the Nacho/Vezo scum deadlock. There surely are others. It could be mechanics, it could be roles, it could be an SK, it could anything. Why do you desperately want to give scum this information? Surely its not for the town. The town can go on just fine hunting for scum and not knowing, but the scum MUST know how they can lose.

We gave you options based on real facts that we know. I have an investigation or one of them can volunteer to clear the other one. You want neither. You want the fucking care bears to come around and shine a happy rainbow on everything and figure out the setup for you. At least thats what you claim. The reality is that you prefer nothing. You prefer us to sit idle and do nothing. You wanted to kill of Fishy. You dont want me to investigate and uncover people.

You want to sit by and wait for the scum (or an SK you) to come around and kill me at night, then what? If you dont want me to investigate, then whats the point of having me around? Should I just volunteer to not be spared tonight then Dupe? Its the equivalent of what youre proposing. How much more anti-town does that need to sound before you realize that flipping Nacho/Vezo is a good idea? But since they wont cooperate, the second best option is for me to investigate them? Or would you prefer to continue to drink the WIFOM?

Why do you want to take that chance on them? WHY? For the third time, I have laid out how suspicious they both look in their interactions with Protoss/Mask, and you have ignored that repeatedly.

Youre acting like a woman in a panic. Stop it. Stop looking for that easy out. No one in their right mind are going to claim that they have that magic scum busting bullet you seek. If that person exists, they will NEVER claim, or else they are DEAD. Do you prefer to blindly continue through the days and hope that Nacho/Vezo arent lying scumbags and hope someone comes and saves you? Youre really putting the fate on the town on a blind hunch? FUCK that, I want information. I want facts. I want to be sure that we arent being dicked over here.

I dont care what the setup is anymore. We need to cover all bases. You want superman to step out of the phone booth and go toe to toe on the bad guys. That will just get Superman killed. We need that contingency plan in case Nacho/Vezo are actually innocent. If they are cleared, fully truly cleared, then we dont have to worry about Superman, we can just take care of ourselves. We NEED to investigate one of them, etiher via flip or via investigation. Otherwise we are putting our faith into blind hope that they arent lying or that someone can save us.

Youre asking if they are scum, what then? Im asking, are they scum?

[Umbrage]

Lets assume for a second that we follow your plan and lynch Vezo and msylnch with both of us flipping town. If there's no doctor IS dies tonight leaving Nacho and Fishy alive as clears with you, Tony and Apok as unclear, what do you do then?

Scumhunt. There are likely two scum left. With two clear, those are excellent odds. And keep in mind: what you just gave is a worst-case scenario with only VTs left. If there's a deputy, we have another confirmed. If there's a doctor, we're sitting quite prettily.

This will be decided upon finalization of my reads.

So you don't want IS to get a second spare vote, but you don't even know WHY you don't want him to get the second spare vote? Bullshit.

You want me to address the problems then sure I will. If Vezo and Nacho are scum, neither of them are going to be okay with the other one dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has already failed. If Vezo and Nacho are town, neither of them are going to be okay with someone they know is town for sure dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has failed already.

See the issue now?

I'm attempting to work out what mafias hinderance is, I have been for a long time and no one is attempting to assist me. There has to be something put in place to prevent this from happening and instead of bickering with me or attempting to ignore what I am saying I would appreciate if you discuss this with me logically.

Why? Why is it so important that you figure this out? Until we get a game over, there is obviously something preventing scum from doing this. I'm not worried about it. Nobody else is worried about it. WHY IS FINDING THE MECHANIC THAT STOPS SCUM CROSS-SPARING SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?

We aren't dying. We are town.

We don't care if you don't believe us. There is nothing you can do to kill us.

You can trust us or argue with us. The problem is: You can't kill us.

No, you can be killed.

Something is stopping the scum from cross-sparing.

So you can bet your ass that same thing will stop you from cross-sparing.

Maybe it's another vig, maybe it's an SK, I have no idea.

But you don't know either.

As I said, there's a chance you will both be dead by tomorrow.

Are you town?

If you are town, only one thing matters: TOWN WINNING.

My plan gives the best chance of that happening.

And if you go against that plan, any sane vig will kill you.

You can't be lynched.

But you can be endgamed.

[Duplicity]

You're missing a few major factors IS, mafia would already know what is preventing them from cross-sparing otherwise this setup would be pointless.

As for there being town roles to prevent mafia from doing so in this post I discussed and went into detail about how if such role exists it would have to be night-kill immune, read it and tell me if you agree or disagree.

As for mass-claim outing important roles, the only role that would be important right now is doctor, and in this post I go into detail about how a doctor claim now would lead to an automatic win if we were to find a way to prevent mafia cross-sparing.

Therefore you saying mass-claim is harmful and not helpful is obviously incorrect, if there's some part of this logic you disagree with state so rather than attempting to start an entire smear campagin and attempt to misrepresent all of my posts.

[Duplicity]

Umbrage, I've asked before, what is a deputy?

So you don't want IS to get a second spare vote, but you don't even know WHY you don't want him to get the second spare vote? Bullshit.

I don't want him to get a second spare vote because I believe he's highly likely to die tonight, I've said this so fucking many times.

Why? Why is it so important that you figure this out? Until we get a game over, there is obviously something preventing scum from doing this. I'm not worried about it. Nobody else is worried about it. WHY IS FINDING THE MECHANIC THAT STOPS SCUM CROSS-SPARING SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?

Simple. The only way to win is to lynch (Not spare) mafia, this can't be done if they just save each other, therefore I need to know how to stop them saving each other if I want them to die.

[Umbrage]

A deputy is someone who gets the results of a cop when the cop dies. If we have one then IS' death doesn't matter, we should still give him the extra spare vote.

I don't want him to get a second spare vote because I believe he's highly likely to die tonight, I've said this so fucking many times.

WHY DOES IT MATTER? If we have an extra spare vote, WHY NOT GIVE IT TO HIM? The only way we could run out of spare votes is if we try to spare EVERYONE. You're saying you want a fucking NO-LYNCH?

Simple. The only way to win is to lynch (Not spare) mafia, this can't be done if they just save each other, therefore I need to know how to stop them saving each other if I want them to die.

Yeah, right.

How would YOU be able to stop them?

Lying scum.

Die.

[Duplicity]

A deputy is someone who gets the results of a cop when the cop dies. If we have one then IS' death doesn't matter, we should still give him the extra spare vote.

Valid point, never heard of the role myself but that makes sense.

Yeah, right.

How would YOU be able to stop them?

Lying scum.

Die.

Do I even need to explain this? You're asking me why I would try to have mafia lynched?
"You win if the town eliminates all opposing factions."

[vezokpiraka]

Wait! What?

Dupe: How do you know scum know what keeps them from cross sparing?

[Duplicity]

Wait! What?

Dupe: How do you know scum know what keeps them from cross sparing?

If they didn't this game would be pointless, it would turn into a game of no information. On top of that I've gone into why I believe there's likely no town-powered role that prevents mafia from cross-sparing meaning the hinderance has to come on the mafias side, this is something they'd have to be aware of.

[Umbrage]

WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE IT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN CONTROL?

If we massclaim, and there is a vig or something, what are you going to do? Go "uh, cool, hit scum dude"? IT IS A WASTE OF TIME.

Whoever or whatever is stopping the scum from winning, they seem to be doing an OK job of it. Don't mess with a good thing. Don't tell scum who to kill.