Battle for Olympus - Game Over!

[Shadow Dancer]

Why my vote is a good vote has everything to do with the Plum-tell which you completely avoided in this initial response.

You want an answer why your so caled "Plum-tell" is invalid.
i. Because it's based on one single incident.
ii. Because I am not Plum.

Also you've begun a series of nitpicky attacks (going after Ranger for being 'mysterious', attacking CMAR on what is cleary a typo) as opposed to honestly scum-hunting.

You need to clarify what you are saying here. Who is the scum member being sacrificed and who are the easily impressed Townies?

Scum member would be you. Easily impressed townie would be any one who's blindly following you due to your supposed confiremd town status.

1. What scum-hunting purpose is there in pointing out a funny but otherwise innocuous typos in his post?

Zero. None. Nada. It's just plain funny.

2. He’s pointed out that his statement makes clear sense and I overall agree. He’s calling “Wrong Pantheon” slip not a slip (it isn’t so he’s correct), says anyone pressing you on that issue is ‘reaching’, and that your interaction with Ranger is a Town on Town (this is the one aspect I don’t like as labelling an argument Town v Town so early is pulling a Zang). It is hardly all over the place.

How do you know which supposed "scumslip" he adresses, he doesn't say so specifically.
He attributes scumslip with "terrible" which implies he takes it as a serious scumslip, just to then accuse people of "reaching" (implying dishonest, i.e. scummy, motivations) and then calls it town on town - on no grounds.
It is hardly an attack, btw, just me asking him to specify his opinion.

[Shadow Dancer]

I would not be surprised, and would expect, the Mod to give the scum at least some safe claims. What's more up in the air is whether he'd give them

all

safe claims. Seems like most of the time I see this, the Mod has given the scum 2-3 "safe-claims" and the others end up having to fend for themselves.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

In the original greek mythology, where without a doubt Andrius (who was in that game) got his inspiration from, there were no safe claims, but that was regarded as a major shortcoming of that setup, so I srtongly believe we have safe claims this time.

[Axelrod]

You need to clarify what you are saying here. Who is the scum member being sacrificed and who are the easily impressed Townies?

Scum member would be you. Easily impressed townie would be any one who's blindly following you due to your supposed confiremd town status.

Well, you certainly backed off your "I think MoL is Town" statment pretty quick, didn't you. Just because he's attacking you now?

[Shadow Dancer]

Did I say "would be the scum member" or did I say "is the scum member". If it is in deed the first (O_o it is!), what are you basing your conclusion on.

[Axelrod]

Did I say "would be the scum member" or did I say "is the scum member". If it is in deed the first (O_o it is!), what are you basing your conclusion on.

I didn't read what you were saying right (probably because it doesn't make a lot of sense).

If I now understand correctly, you were originally attacking Ranger of the North, who said that MoI could still be scum with his claim. And you were basically saying "No he couldn't, because it would be stupid for scum to "sacrifice" one of their members that way (by making a claim like MoI made), for the marginal gain of - getting some people to think he was Town?

Is that right?

[LordChronos]

@LordChronos - Okay, I get that reasoning, but how much do you think a normal random vote "counts"? Do you think a scum player would be more likely to vote for the mod or to just make a totally random vote like everyone else to fit in? Also, one more thing and then I will probably leave you alone - do you have any prior experience that makes you think this is a scum tell?

Obviously it doesn't count much, but it certainly counts more than not making an actual vote. I would say it depends on the scum player. If that scum player has voted for the mod before as town they might be inclined to vote for the mod again to try to manipulate meta. If you are asking if I have played any games with someone who was scum and voted for the mod instead of making a random vote, the answer is no.

@Snow Bunny

I already answered that question. I think voting the mod is a cop-out.

[Snow_Bunny]

@Snow_Bunny; do you think RVS votes in general are useful? Why wouldn't you want to do something useful (read: protown) at the start of a game?

Do you think that lying a random vote is protown? And who's saying I don't want to do something useful? I am not liking this kind of twisting, you know.

Baby is looking plain awful. That sheep vote is as bad as it can get, but I rather like my vote on SD for now.

Oh, and

small FoS: Axelrod

. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

I would not be surprised, and would expect, the Mod to give the scum at least some safe claims. What's more up in the air is whether he'd give them

all

safe claims. Seems like most of the time I see this, the Mod has given the scum 2-3 "safe-claims" and the others end up having to fend for themselves.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

In the original greek mythology, where without a doubt Andrius (who was in that game) got his inspiration from, there were no safe claims, but that was regarded as a major shortcoming of that setup, so I srtongly believe

we

have safe claims this time.

Bolded from me. Who's this "we" you're talking about?

[Shadow Dancer]

Did I say "would be the scum member" or did I say "is the scum member". If it is in deed the first (O_o it is!), what are you basing your conclusion on.

I didn't read what you were saying right (probably because it doesn't make a lot of sense).

If I now understand correctly, you were originally attacking Ranger of the North, who said that MoI could still be scum with his claim. And you were basically saying "No he couldn't, because it would be stupid for scum to "sacrifice" one of their members that way (by making a claim like MoI made), for the marginal gain of - getting some people to think he was Town?

Is that right?

I was attacking Ranger for voting me based on not stated but seemingly forcefully strteched reasons. It was somehow based on our discussion for which sane reasons scum would possibly right away claim hated townie.

[Axelrod]

Oh, and

small FoS: Axelrod

. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

Why wait! I won't feel like I'm really playing until someone says they don't like something I've said.

[Snow_Bunny]

Oh, and

small FoS: Axelrod

. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

Why wait! I won't feel like I'm really playing until someone says they don't like something I've said.

Why? Are you afraid we may catch you?

[Shadow Dancer]

Bolded from me. Who's this "we" you're talking about?

We = every one in this game / this game as a community.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If that trend follows, then there might not be a huge amount of risk in "Name" claiming. And it forces the scum to lie or use up whatever fake claims they have been given, which is something. Potential downside is if (1) there are scum roles that get advantaged by knowing someone's role-name (2) possibility that the bigger names have the best powers and also then become high profile targets (3) if all the scum have prefect safe claims, we've not actually accomplished much.

All of these (and more I’m sure but I’m too lazy to work on them with this list already made) are reasons why a Mass-name claim would likely be bad.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

Andrius in Themed games has a history of providing fake-claims – those of you who didn’t play in LOTR Mafia should know he provided a list of available options and would flesh out PMs as needed. The total fake-claim names exceed the amount of scum roles.

Dana has a history of providing fake-claims for each scum player when necessary. See Blackest Night Mafia where each scum member had a Color / Name available to them. In that case the mechanics of the game made those fake-claims rather weak but every scum got a fake-claim.

--

You want an answer why your so caled "Plum-tell" is invalid.
i. Because it's based on one single incident.
ii. Because I am not Plum.

I was wondering if you would go this way. Neither of those arguments holds any water.

The tell in itself is very common – buddying. It’s not a “single event” or only something Plum does / is capable of. Just because I dressed it up in fancy clothes because your use matches well with Plum’s doesn’t suddenly make it not buddying.

So no, it isn’t based on a ‘single incident’ and isn’t invalid because you aren’t Plum.

Scum member would be you. Easily impressed townie would be any one who's blindly following you due to your supposed confiremd town status.

Your argument breaks down then as you were the only player to suggest I was confirmed in the least. And you clearly aren’t following me.

Zero. None. Nada. It's just plain funny.

Ok, so it was pure fluff. Understood.

How do you know which supposed "scumslip" he adresses, he doesn't say so specifically.

1. The accusations against you at that stage when CMAR posted were two-fold – firstly that you ‘slipped’ and didn’t realise Greek Gods were Town because you were scum and second that you buddied up. CMAR addresses the buddying angle as Null so he can only be referring to the Pantheon slip.

--

Baby is looking plain awful. That sheep vote is as bad as it can get, but I rather like my vote on SD for now.

Oh, and small FoS: Axelrod. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

Hey since you don’t want to elaborate on why Axel is suspicious (and Pro-Tip pretty much everything is a small deal this early) why don’t you articulate why you like SD as scum. Because I’d like to see what specifically you like about him as scummy.

[Plum]

@SD's Page 3 antics: Either a terrible cumslip or people are reaching for a cumslip. I'm leaning reaching. I don't think that the him calling MoI town is necessarily scummy as I happened to do the same thing right up there ^ However I considered the possibility of him being scum, I just say that we need to consider him town so I guess there is a small difference.

I don't necessarily think SD is town, but I haven't found him to be glaringly scummy though I dislike one of his posts. I think the "scumslip" is sort of ridiculous, maybe because I don't really understand it. I think him calling MoI town is understandable and a nulltell, as I did the same thing and had the same thought when I read MoI's claim so I'm not going to call SD scum for something when I thought/did the same thing.

Love the phrasing of the last line, though 'I'm not going to call SD scum' for this - lashing out at whoever might argue that you should be voting him? Eh? Love, too, the sign off mumble against SD after the on-and-off semi-defense.

I would not be surprised, and would expect, the Mod to give the scum at least some safe claims. What's more up in the air is whether he'd give them

all

safe claims. Seems like most of the time I see this, the Mod has given the scum 2-3 "safe-claims" and the others end up having to fend for themselves.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

I know Andrius and he's definitely not the sort to leave scum out in the cold in the safeclaim arena. I trained him too well (plus, the Greek Mythology mini had no safeclaims and it was frustrating and then loltastic to be scum. He remembers that vividly. He's almost certainly found a less hillarible way to balance the game than not giving out [enough] safeclaims.

Why my vote is a good vote has everything to do with the Plum-tell which you completely avoided in this initial response. Also you've begun a series of nitpicky attacks (going after Ranger for being 'mysterious', attacking CMAR on what is cleary a typo) as opposed to honestly scum-hunting.

This right here.

Why my vote is a good vote has everything to do with the Plum-tell which you completely avoided in this initial response.

You want an answer why your so caled "Plum-tell" is invalid.
i. Because it's based on one single incident.
ii. Because I am not Plum.

That's stupid. The 'Plum-tell' is a distillation of a specific sort of scum-buddying. But you know why this defense is weak and scummy as hell? Because you didn't go and explain why your statement about MoI

wasn't

scummy buddying and therefore regardless of belief in the tell a nonissue. No. You had to (badly) attack the validity of the tell. Tells and such are subjective things. Townies generally don't get angrily defensive over being called out for whatever tell it happens to be because they can explain what their motives were for doing whatever it was and why their motives weren't scummy. Can you explain what your motives were? Well. You've kinda already done this scummy sort of defensiveness. And given that my late-night daykill optimism has been cruelly dashed (lemme put it this way, MoI, I always

want

to believe and let rationality follow as it will).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SD

We'll get to your scumbuddies in an orderly fashion I'm sure.

[quadz08]

AV's continued pressure on SnowBunny for the RVS thing is pretty ridiculous, IMO.

Elsewise, SD continues to dig a hole for himself with more poor logic.

Also, I believe that SD is L-3.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You know what this thread needs?

More Chronopie, AGar, Iecrint, Dekes and Baby Spice!!!!

[gandalf5166]

First example that comes to mind? Kronos. Hades was not hated by the other gods in actual mythology, to my knowledge.

Yeah, Hades hated the other gods, but they didn't have anything particular against him.

[gandalf5166]

To be fair, scum with L-1 restriction is rather stupid, because if they make it to 3 person lylo it's an autolose once they crossvote with someone, so it's seen as unfair.

And if a hated townie makes it to LyLo and they have to crossvote, then town autoloses. Get over it. It's how they work.

[gandalf5166]

@MOI: No. I DO know that my role is in accord with the answers that I gave, and we could potentially catch unknowledgable scum by making people claim their survey when they claim their role. I don't see any downside other than it would make it harder for town to make gambits.

My role is in accord with the answers I gave. My powers, however, are only loosely related to my name, and basically could have been justified on almost anyone for almost any reason.

If that trend follows, then there might not be a huge amount of risk in "Name" claiming. And it forces the scum to lie or use up whatever fake claims they have been given, which is something. Potential downside is if (1) there are scum roles that get advantaged by knowing someone's role-name (2) possibility that the bigger names have the best powers and also then become high profile targets (3) if all the scum have prefect safe claims, we've not actually accomplished much.

My role is def. connected to my name.

[gandalf5166]

I would not be surprised, and would expect, the Mod to give the scum at least some safe claims. What's more up in the air is whether he'd give them

all

safe claims. Seems like most of the time I see this, the Mod has given the scum 2-3 "safe-claims" and the others end up having to fend for themselves.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

Andrius AND dana both give out fakeclaims to all the scum.

[gandalf5166]

Unvote
VOTE: SD

LOOPDEBLOOP

And SD, this "plumtell" is DEFINITELY valid. I've done it before. It's a common scum strategy.

[Shadow Dancer]

@Plum: You disregard the rather trivial explanation that I call Magna confirmed town because I consider him just that, at least for all current practical purposes. And even if you take the rather wide scumtell cathegory "buddying" - not every calling some one town is buddying, you know. If you'd really be interested in finding scum and potentially eventually calling me out as such you'd wait and watch and wait for further evidence that you buddying theory is valid, which ion the case of real buddying would unquestionably come sooner or later. Right now you're not looking for scum but for cheap reasons to call some one scum. That's also far too common behaviour when game leaves RVS, though.

[Plum]

You ignored Magna's case on you based on the tell first. You then tried to explain why the tell was invalid instead of explaining why your behavior was not scummy (and yes, you did that in an extremely scummy way and didn't address why you did that at all). That's at least half my issue with you. Yeah, I know not every instance of calling someone Town is buddying. That's why I'm interested in this specific case - because it matches a previously documented set of buddying behavior which

has

correlated with scum motivations and with scum players in the past. Such behavior, combined with the above behavior, is more than a cheap reason to call someone scum. It's a pretty decent reason, I think. But if it's so cheap, tell me: am I scummy?

If I'm really interested in finding scum I'm perfectly happy to vote my top suspect and continue grilling him and change my vote accordingly, if necessary. Please don't tell me that I should be waiting for you to act scummy again if you've already acted scummy in more arenas than the buddying one, kthx.

[Shadow Dancer]

I was wondering if you would go this way. Neither of those arguments holds any water.

So how about this one: Your whle argument is based on the preassumption that I was in deed buddying scum - in case I am not the whole things falls apart to "I don't agree with Shadow -> Shadow is scum." And that should make you reconsider the whole thing twice.

Your argument breaks down then as you were the only player to suggest I was confirmed in the least. And you clearly aren’t following me.

How does my argu7ment break down there? It leads to the valid deduction that I am not an easily impressed townie right now.

Ok, so it was pure fluff. Understood.

Exactly! That one single paragraph was fluffyfluffy toilet humour posting!

1. The accusations against you at that stage when CMAR posted were two-fold – firstly that you ‘slipped’ and didn’t realise Greek Gods were Town because you were scum and second that you buddied up. CMAR addresses the buddying angle as Null so he can only be referring to the Pantheon slip.

I don't see much sense in discussing with you, what Cry meant.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So how about this one: Your whle argument is based on the preassumption that I was in deed buddying scum - in case I am not the whole things falls apart to "I don't agree with Shadow -> Shadow is scum." And that should make you reconsider the whole thing twice.

I’ve observed you displaying a behavior that I have seen scum do many times over in the past – specifically buddying up to someone with little reasoning. In this case you didn’t just say “Oh, MoI is likely Town based on his claim”. Nope. You said I was CONFIRMED Town. I capsed and bolded the important word for you. The level of 'read' you are showing is not in any logical proporation to the reasons you give for said read. I haven’t seen anything significant from you since that is having me question that read.

How does my argu7ment break down there? It leads to the valid deduction that I am not an easily impressed townie right now.

I breaks down because it applies to not a single player in the game. You were using it to attack Ranger in your short-lived vote on him. It's an invalid argument.

I don't see much sense in discussing with you, what Cry meant.

Then why did you bring it up in the first place?

SD – “How do you know what Cry was saying????”
MoI – “For this reason it was the logical conclusion”
SD – “I don’t see the point of discussing it with you!!!”

That’s exactly the sequence we just had. I’ve played with you before at some point SD and don’t remember you being so Pants on Head ….

Do you normally flail under pressure?

[AGar]

I was wondering if you would go this way. Neither of those arguments holds any water.

So how about this one: Your whle argument is based on the preassumption that I was in deed buddying scum - in case I am not the whole things falls apart to "I don't agree with Shadow -> Shadow is scum." And that should make you reconsider the whole thing twice.

Your argument breaks down then as you were the only player to suggest I was confirmed in the least. And you clearly aren’t following me.

How does my argu7ment break down there? It leads to the valid deduction that I am not an easily impressed townie right now.

Ok, so it was pure fluff. Understood.

Exactly! That one single paragraph was fluffyfluffy toilet humour posting!

1. The accusations against you at that stage when CMAR posted were two-fold – firstly that you ‘slipped’ and didn’t realise Greek Gods were Town because you were scum and second that you buddied up. CMAR addresses the buddying angle as Null so he can only be referring to the Pantheon slip.

I don't see much sense in discussing with you, what Cry meant.

This whole post is what bothers me most about SD right now. The first quote response is "Well what if your tell is wrong??!?!?!" Then it is a wrong tell... but your reactions have been all but right. The second quote response contradicts the whole acting as if MoI is confirmed town bit with the "not an easily impressed townie right now." A "not easily impressed townie" wouldn't just throw someone as confirmed town because they claimed hated townie. I see very rich motivations for someone to claim that as scum, in fact. Then exclaiming that something was fluff like "See! It was fluff! DON'T YOU SEE!" Aaaand then as MoI pointed out the interactions for the last quote are just lols.

This wagon is moving well in the right direction here.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ShadowDancer

L-1, no one be a moron.