Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[Thor665]

The original point was that it wasn't as simple as not agreeing with how Romanus played the game - you were oversimplifying it.

I will note you still have failed to prove what you're suggesting is any more than disagreement with his play and is actually scummy. I don't think I was oversimplifying it at all - that was the case. Please refer to the circle joke from earlier - though it's a joke I also submit it's a concise and accurate assessment of how you're explaining his play was scummy. It really was just a basic belief that the game shouldn't be played that way, nothing more.

Well, is it a scum tell? It wasn't in this game, and I don't really have the experience to say whether or not it's a scum tell.

As I said - yes, it is a scumtell. I'll agree that it wasn't accurate in this game - welcome to ALL scumtells.

To me, it looked more like cjdrum was just listening to what the IC was saying, and following his advice (or what he perceived the advice was). It wasn't particularly indicative of scumminess or towniness to me - and I know I've said this before and I'm just repeating myself now.

::shrug:: hindsight is 20/20, you probably should have said something then.

What's your opinion on crazy+L, Thor? Or Ant+L now.

As I noted a few times now, i'm still waiting to get more on crazy, and with his replacement I'm trying to get more out of his replacement. Off the top of my head I think crazy posted...what, 2-3 times since I replaced in?

I'm strongly reconsidering L because you're starting to come off as simply pedantic town to me, which is less worrisome of a read than plodding scum.

I will also add the only thing not making me want to lynch Misder and Winged is the Doc claim - I'd still love it if you guys could pick up the conversation a bit more. Considering that pretty much all of the conversation of late has been me, L, and Muffin there's a not unreasonable chance that 33-66% of all the conversation in thread is from scum - and that's not a good ratio.

How about the two of you compare your scum reads with each other and talk out some of your thoughts. Functionally the both of you should feel fairly confident in each other, and getting two known town talking is a powerful tool that scum hate.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Ok. Let's see if I can tackle Thor's question first.

Final vote count of D1. Yes, you are right. If you are town (which I will admit, D1 I did have a town read on the IC) then there were no scum on the lynch. But the VCA door swings both ways. You could be the only scum on the wagon as well.
Now D2, we have

Batboy

zMuffinMan and

L-Block

[L] on the lynch. This makes so much more sense to me seeing as how my gut says they are the scum team. D1 zMuffinMan was probably attacking the IC seeing as they might be the biggest threat, and [L] was hiding, not committing to either wagon.

Now the little burst for him calling you out on you calling him out for wanting a no-lynch (little argument from #386):
Do you honestly believe that crazyscum would be pushing a no-lynch for the purpose of killing of the Doc that night just to end up with another day phase? At this point of the game, a no-lynch would just validate the doc claim, but I for one am willing to believe the claim and move on.

If you could be so kinda and repeat anything else you want answered. I didn't really think of bringing anything else up on it right now.

zMuffinMan seems like he is trying to discredit the doc claim today. I will admit though, I used to think that scum would sometimes purposely use a no-kill to create situations like this, I think I know better now. There was no reason the scum would try such a gambit when they didn't need to. Right now the game is in their favor and a risk like that is totally uncalled for imo.

More to come on [L] later. But by PoE I just have zMuffinMan, [L], and Thor to choose from. Although I do have a town read on Thor so that really only leaves two >__>

(Unless there is a lucky Wing/Thor scum team...then I will admit I will be blindsided by that)
Now, off to do my taxes

[Misder]

I just read Thor's play when he was mafia, and he seems to play exactly if he was town, or at least the tone. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 52&start=0. So what I thought was town play by Thor really could be scum play :/
Now, he does bring up VCA, which no one did mention, and I think it's good that he brought it up meaning townplay probably. What strikes me is that if he was scum, would he bring evidence that could hurt him?

Final Vote Count of Day One:

cjdrum

- 5 (

McGriddle

,

Romanus

, crazypianist1116,

WingDamage9001

,

Prosaurus

) [this was lynch]

Romanus

- 3 (zMuffinMan,

cjdrum

,

Misder

)

Misder

- 1 ([L])

Here's the hammer day 1. Wingy fled the Romanus wagon and Misder crawled onto Romanus. L is functionally abstaining from voting, crazy is a high suspect because the chances of the wagon Day 1 having zero scum on it? Almost never happens. This is, at its heart and core, the crazy case (see how I did that in one sentence without having to try to justify how every post he's ever made is scummy? Exciting.

So basically, using his logic, if crazy/ant can convince us that he is town, then the flip occurs and Romanus/Thor would be looked at as scum. This kind of evidence I would find hard to believe that scum would bring up.
Also, rethinking Day 1 with this mindset of analysis based on voting, makes me think that L is scummier than I thought. Previously, I thought that L's excuse for voting to lynch was legitimate- basically, she said that she did it because of guts. However, if I look at it in a different angle, L could just not want to take a stance in the position, and it is just an excuse.
However, Day 2 is completely different. We get L starting the lynch on Prosaurus, being as aggressive as possible. If she was scum, she wanted an excuse day 1, but then puts herself out there day 2? That seems odd to me.

@L What do you think about Thor?
@Ant What did you think about my play Day 1?
@Thor Do you feel that there is a difference in your town play and your scum play?
@Muffin Why do you tunnel the IC so much?
@Wing Who is your strongest suspect and why?

[Thor665]

@Misder - Probably there is but I aggressively play in such a way as to avoid it if at all possible. If I have a clear scumtell to differentiate me from my town play I am unaware of it, because if I was aware of it I would destroy it as a reliable tell.

What do you think about Muffin's vote Day 1?

[Ant_to_the_max]

@Misder

Code: Select all

[url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2911798#p2911798]#187[/url]

Gives you this
#187

I forgot if anyone brought this up, but I am going to get this right now. When you do ISO posts like you did, doing that will save SOOO much space >_>

As for your question. I think it was fine. At first I thought it might have been trying to hard to look town, but when I actually looked at what you wrote, I honestly believed you are town. A certain post from you during D2 only confirmed my thoughts.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Vote: No Lynch

What crazy said. Is it possible the scum are messing with our heads and didn't target anyone? I hope they did target someone.

I'm sorry Prosaurus, but your play was so scummy. I'd say WingDamage or Romanus/Zorblag would be my next suspects, but I'll wait until they get guilty scans.

First throws out they no-kill theory. Also hints at there being a cop. Like...HARDCORE hinting right here. You guys see it too right?

@[L]- In the post I pointed out, and other subsequent posts, you hinted at there being a cop. Why?

It was at this point [the claim] that us newbs lost control of the game, and I honestly feel like we're being handled, and shown a certain way to think. You, Zorblag, came onto the scene and handily convinced us that Wing is telling the truth. Now, granted, a lot of his posts could be like a doctor keeping a low profile - but it is the lack of scumhunting that is sticking in my craw. Up until this point, I've been getting a town read on Wing, but it was just based on intuition. I never really looked at Wing because of this. Looking at him in ISO right now though, opens up possibilities that he's the real scum, at this point. I'm suspicious of you and Wing at this point in time.

I'm conflicted though, because the mafia failed or did not kill last night. If the scum were newbs, then we should believe they failed, because all newbs would attempt a kill. If they were experienced people, then we should believe they failed, or are running a gambit.

There is a lot of posts from her that also try to throw doubt on the doc claim and cast suspicion on "experienced" players. Just one of them.

Posts 318-322 caused me to strongly doubt my vote. I got the feeling that two townies were going at it, and that the scum were lurking. I honestly get the feeling of being handled by those who are more experienced. I'm very grateful to how Zorblag taught me things like how mass claims work; but when I think about the conclusions drawn I cannot see his logic. I've played a lot of mafia in the real world - but it can't be all that different. When mass claims happen, people lie. It happened! So what if more people were not lying, besides scum?

You don't see why the massclaim was a better idea than a no-lynch? And really, sooooooooo many posts from here that are subtly pushing for a Zorblag/Thor lynch. Why did you unvote Thor again? Is it because Wing or Misder didn't hope on so Muffin could hammer?

When you read through all her posts from D3 post massclaim, I just get the feeling the scum messed up and forgot to fake claim a PR.
hmmmmmmmmm

[Ant_to_the_max]

Yup yup
VOTE: [L]
bored in class and reread D2. Yeah, the hammer was scummy, but the momentum created by Muffin and [L] is really scummy.

*waits for everyone to come back and comment*
Popcorn.gif

[Thor665]

A certain post from you during D2 only confirmed my thoughts.

Could you clarify this - I see no reason to play coy with reads at this stage.

I'm waiting for L to respond to Ant, after that I'll vote and we can end this day/game.

[Ant_to_the_max]

You are right. I liked this one

@crazy Technically, I'm not confirmed. There still is the chance that scum did not send in a hit. However, I will give you that it is highly unlikely.

Why would scum give up a confirmed town look? Yeah, pretty weak by itself, but when you look at everything else, I think it is enough to tip the scale in his favor.

[Thor665]

That's a Day 3 quote though, isn't it?

[Ant_to_the_max]

Hmm?
*looks back at my other post*
Oh. Typo. Sorry about that

[Fenchurch]

Twelfth Vote Count of Day Three:

Ant_to_the_max - 1 (WingDamage9001)
[L] - 1 (Ant_to_the_max)

Not Voting: 4 (Misder, zMuffinMan, Thor665, [L])

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

Wingdamage has another 12 hours to respond to his current prod, or I will look for a replacement.

[-L-]

@Misder - using your logic that "'analyzing VCA' is 'town play'" is no fair for me - because I've never seen VCA before, and wouldn't know to use it. It's not in my toolbox. I've gotten a town read on Thor, based on his diction and the fact that he explained not only his position, but those of his two predecessors.

@Thor - I asked Misder to explain his lack of scumhunting. That is my outstanding question that has not been answered.

@Ant - Way to frame someone. At that stage of the game I strongly believed that there was a cop. Mafia always has a cop, a doc, scum, and townies. But soon after I was referred to the wiki which shows 4 different setups.

No I didn't see why the massclaim was better - because I was being 'told' what to do. I have two unfinished games on this site. I don't know all the lingo, and didn't understand no lynch. I was looking for clarification. I was not "sublty" pushing for Zorblag/Wing's lynch - rather - I was pushing hard. The whole thing didn't make sense to me - and I felt Zorblag/Wing were pulling a gambit. Once Muffin and crazy came in and explained a few things, I started changing my mind because I saw I was being too bullheaded.

Your attacks on me are based on pulling my quotes completely out of context, and framing them to say completely baseless things. That stinks big time. The fact that the back and forth between your position and muffin stank of the same thing is bothersome. I got a town read on you - but I believe I was misled.

Vote: Ant_to_the_max

[Ant_to_the_max]

How did I take them out of context?

Who is my scum buddy then?

[WingDamage9001]

Gah! I'm so lurky recently!

[-L-]

Most likely muffin.

[-L-]

You took them out of context because you completely missed the context of what I went through that day. You were just skimming for comments that you could use to pin me as scum.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Then would you be willing to agree to disagree and vote Muffin?

[zMuffinMan]

I've had internet connectivity issues at home since yesterday which will hopefully be fixed by tonight. I don't really have much time to post right now, briefly skimmed the posts on this page, hope I'm not missing anything important

@Thor,

I don't think I was oversimplifying it at all - that was the case. Please refer to the circle joke from earlier - though it's a joke I also submit it's a concise and accurate assessment of how you're explaining his play was scummy. It really was just a basic belief that the game shouldn't be played that way, nothing more.

You asked me to give you reasons why the unvote on Misder makes sense as scum, I tell you why I think it makes sense as scum, you then accuse me of using circular reasoning (because I gave reasons it makes sense as scum).

I just ignored this because it would be absurd to respond to it, and you were completely ignoring everything else I said about it.

::shrug:: hindsight is 20/20, you probably should have said something then.

I don't recall being active at the time, and I don't think I predicted a quick lynch happening.


@Ant,

zMuffinMan seems like he is trying to discredit the doc claim today. I will admit though, I used to think that scum would sometimes purposely use a no-kill to create situations like this, I think I know better now. There was no reason the scum would try such a gambit when they didn't need to. Right now the game is in their favor and a risk like that is totally uncalled for imo.

Er, no. I've clearly said a few times now that I believe Wing's claim, but believing a claim and calling something confirmed are two different things. Considering pretty much everyone still alive, including yourself but excluding Wing, is considering the possibility that the night kill didn't occur, I don't see how you can make a case against me because of this.

The only reason I even brought the topic up is because your predecessor was speaking as though there were

no

possibility of anything other than a doc protect happening. This looks like a slip from scum because you (crazy)

knew

what happened.

D1 zMuffinMan was probably attacking the IC seeing as they might be the biggest threat

My original semi-RVS vote had nothing to do with him being IC - I didn't even know he was IC at the time, and I've mentioned this already. I just felt he was putting too much effort into reminding us that it was a random vote, when it was fairly obvious it was random. After that, I didn't see anything from him that I considered town play - just repeated anti-town play from his contradictory reason for an OMGUS to his inconsistency and poorly-reasoned attacks on other players.

@Misder,

@Muffin Why do you tunnel the IC so much?

What tunneling? Day 1, you could call that tunneling. Day 2 he was inactive. Day 3 I don't think I've been tunneling him at all - questioning him lately because he's the most active player, yes, but I don't consider that tunneling.

Will respond to more tonight when (if) my home net is fixed. In the mean time, going to request nobody quick lynches anyone.

[Thor665]

Vote: Ant_to_the_Max

We've sorted our thing. If it is Misder/Wing they snookered me good, but I'm willing to bet it isn't. If Ant is scum I mildly lean on L as the most likely buddy, but I'll admit the read is muddy there.

I do strongly suggest that if we last another day and I'm not around to do it that you take the votes from end of Day 1, 2, and 3 and plug in the known scum and known town and just study it and try to get a feel for who is what and where.

[zMuffinMan]

!Vote: Ant_to_the_Max

[Thor665]

Balls.

[Misder]

Alright, its L-1.

I'm ready to hammer Ant. I feel that crazy was scummy enough already for me to justify voting for him, and Ant really doesn't do a good job portraying a Muffin+L team. Particularly, I don't see the "momentum" that they apparently created.
Before I do, I want to here the opinions of Muffin and Wing on Ant/crazy one more time.

I'm also not discounting the fact that Thor and L could be a team, especially bringing Ant to L-1, maybe hoping for a quicker lynch.

@L You don't think VCA is a legitimate form of analyzing?

Edit before posting: Too late I suppose. What happened to not quicklynching....

[zMuffinMan]

Well, obviously I'm scum, Misder. And if Wing dies tonight with no one to protect him, the game is over. Sorry.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, I legitimately do have net problems at home, so I probably won't be posting again until it's fixed. But obviously I'm voting to submit a night kill on Wing with my partner.