Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[-L-]

Ok, then. I see now where muffin got his idea from. If there aren't any power roles, then there definitely is a

But it is possible for there to be just a doctor. If I bow and give the mass claim any credence, the that would mean we were in setup 4 of F9. That would cause Wing's claim to be possibly true, considering he went first, and everyone said "not doc". That would make his scumtells those of a hiding doctor. My thing is, with a source like that in the wiki, the mafia know what the lay of the land is based on their roles. They could easily run a gambit I can't let go of my Wing vote. Besides him my suspects are Zorblag and muffin; with Zorblag in the lead.

@wing: why did you protect the same person (Misder) twice in a row? It's easy to say that to avoid conflict?

@Misder: did you receive a message saying you were protected? Can you confirm wing's claim?

[-L-]

EBWOP: roleblocker.

[Fenchurch]

Sixth Vote Count of Day Three:

Zorblag - 1 (crazypianist1116)
WingDamage9001 - 1 ([L])

Not Voting: 4 (Misder, WingDamage9001, zMuffinMan, Zorblag)

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

Zorblag hasn't yet picked up his prod, but as he is usually a reliable player I'm reluctant to look for a replacement so soon, plus sometimes people are more busy at weekends. I'll give another 24 hours and then think about it.

[WingDamage9001]

@wing: why did you protect the same person (Misder) twice in a row? It's easy to say that to avoid conflict?

Misder was the only person that I felt might be nk'd. I based that on interactions with romanus, who I believed to be scum.

[-L-]

You used the past tense: "believed". What has changed your mind?

I also felt Misder's towniness, hence why I unvoted him after he presented all his notes on everyone on day 1. :/ I feel that your claim is legit... But it will suck big time if you're really scum.

Unvote

Vote: Zorblag

[WingDamage9001]

You used the past tense: "believed". What has changed your mind?

I also felt Misder's towniness, hence why I unvoted him after he presented all his notes on everyone on day 1. :/ I feel that your claim is legit... But it will suck big time if you're really scum.

Unvote

Vote: Zorblag

It would indeed suck big time :p

I used the past tense because his replacement is reading so strongly town. Although the likelihood of him being scum is still pretty high. Frankly, if I had to lynch someone right now it would be you([L]). The shakiness of your vote reads of opportunistic scum looking for town to jump on your wagons, and I would imagine that I'm right. Honestly, I'm pretty sure of it. I'll

Vote [L]

[-L-]

Haha! I'm not the one you're looking for. My vote is cemented because I'm sure.

/noms candy~

[zMuffinMan]

Were your other two votes also cemented or just this one?

[zMuffinMan]

@Misder,

The only problem with a Wing vote is that how the crap could mafia predict that there would be no doctor? That's a huge gamble and that Wing claimed first, the most risky of the claims.

Well, since Wing could only be mafia in a roleblocker/goon combination, it would be a matter of whether he and his partner felt strongly that the setup was 7 vanilla townies. It would still be a gamble, but there would be no risk of being counter-claimed in that situation. Also, it's highly likely he'd be the roleblocker in this case, because if, for some reason, his partner got lynched, they would need to be revealed as goon or the plan would be ruined.

@L,

Who are your suspects Muffinman? Who do you suspect most?

I don't like the idea of categorising people into town reads and scum reads - I'm suspicious of everyone until I confirm they're town. That said, I am least suspicious of Misder and most suspicious of crazypianist and you.

Although I want to hear from Zorblag (or his replacement) as well. I noticed he's already been replaced in 1075.

[Misder]

I did not receive a message that Wing protected me. However, I looked at the wiki, and it didn't say whether I would get a PM or not.

[Fenchurch]

Misder sent me a PM asking about some actions. Obviously I can't comment on anything that is happening within the game, but I can clarify how certain things would work.

A protected player would not get any notification about being targetted in the night. A doctor would not get confirmation whether their protects had been succesful or not. The only player who would get feedback about their actions is a cop, who would receive "Mafia" "Town" or "No result".

Hope this helps, let me know if any of you have other general queries.

Also: now looking for a replacement for Zorblag.

[Fenchurch]

Thor665 replaces Zorblag!

[Thor665]

Greetings all.

Considering we are at Day 3 and page 15 I really hope we bagged scum already since there are multiple votes out.

I am replacing Zorblag who replaced someone else. I am different than Zorblag insomuch as I have a manly beard and also have never replaced out of a game ever (and currently have a track record of only ever being prodded once - and I dispute the prod ) So. I'll be here, I'll be active, and I won't go away, you may decide later if that's a good thing or not.

I'll be reading up over the game during the course of today and this evening. Expect a post from me sometime late PM EST (I've got a 40 pager I'm working through as well, so it's dedicated Mafia reading time then). It will be a big wall post filled with stale humor, rude gestures, and probably a lot of theatrical sighing about how no one is playing the game the way I would. (this is all very standard stuff for replace in posts). I'll also include reads and opinions on other players so that you can get a better feel for who I am as a player and how that relates to your read on the Zorblag slot.

Then I'll vote scum and you can all sheep me

Catch you later tonight.

[Fenchurch]

Seventh Vote Count of Day Three:

Thor665 - 2 (crazypianist1116, [L])

[L] - 1 (WingDamage9001)

Not Voting: 3 (Misder, zMuffinMan, Thor665)

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

[WingDamage9001]

Vote Fenchurch. Heh, I'm funny.

I'm bored.

[Thor665]

Okay, let's do this;

cjdrum, Townie, was lynched Day 1
McGriddle, Townie, was killed Night 1
Prosaurus, Townie, was lynched Day 2
Nobody died Night 2

Sorry to see ol' McGriddle bought it...I think i caught him as scum once? Whatever, just a reminder of who is town so I can focus on potential filthy liars. Right;

Bleh - I actually found Romanus' first vote post scummy, but he's me and the IC so I suppose that's town points.

I like crazy's pressure on Misder. I'd probably have immediately voted to support it and also to start an early bandwagon.

Fairly strong town read off zMuffinMan for my 'oppose the IC in newbie RVS' tell that I don't think has been wrong yet.

I would have definitely wanted a Misder lynch by this stage (page 3) simply because the people being so careful as to not even express their own opinions always look super scummy to me.

If L and Misder are scum together they are owning my face with their play Day 1.

Oh gawds - the quote wall exchange between Prosaurus and crazy just hurts to read. I'm skimming it, Pro is town and the interesting bits from crazy was that he distanced from the potential Romanus/Thor lynch and hopped on starting up the Prosaurus wagon.

Now we're getting somewhere. You're giving reasons for your actions. Not particularly good, but they're explanations. Now do you realize that that's not how scumhunting works? People need to individually develop their own opinions of other people, not just blindingly follow the person who's voting (i.e. bandwagonning).

I actually rather disagree with this.

Woof - I'm sorry I don't have more opinions, but honestly all of you are mostly shuffling around spewing newb tells from your bodies and it's a royal pain to read through and try to extract actual tells from as, really, the bulk of the thread is you guys discussing stuff that has *zero* in game relevance to being town/scum. Discussions on how an IC should/shouldn't play, mention of time zones, mention of game theory. It's all just fluff and I'm kicking at it but it mostly remains fluff.

My top scum reads at this stage are Misder (still) crazy, and that Winged dude. reasons are;

1. Misder still for the RVS stuff - he's barely been posting since then and nobody is getting opinions out of him - gah!

2. crazy has some interesting shifts in vote position around the cjdrum lynch, I'm wanting to see if it's him or Prosaurus who ends up hammering. (Prosaurus...and five bucks says this will be the "tell" that hangs him)

3. Vote analysis reasons - I'll probably get into these more as I catch up.

Just putting it out there, if cjdrum isn't mafia, mafia is crazy+romanus. That's guts right there, but I like my intuition.

Has this been justified? It better have been addressed in Day 2.

I REFUSE to read those walls by Misder at the end of Day 1. You can ask me a specific question about them, but you better link to or quote the relevant section. Good gawd my eyes hurt now.

Okay, I'm up through Page 9 and I really do need to stop now. Might attack it some more later tonight, but might just sluff off till tomorrow.

[Thor665]

I'm bored.

That's a shame, let's try to excite the day for you. I submit you or crazy are currently two of the most likely scum - what is your current read on crazy?

Also, the wagon on me is fail covered in loss sauce. I'll be showing up to crush it beneath my boot heels after I'm done catching up with Day 2. So let's hope you two have that wagon well in order and have presented a better case than "Romulus didn't explain his actions enough" because, as exciting as the topic of whether or not he was a good IC is it's irrelevant to whether or not he was scum. I'll be looking for that case, so if it doesn't already exist you should both probably get cracking.

Especially you crazy, there is a target and it is on your forehead.

[Misder]

@Thor Nobody needed to tell me to post my opinions :/ that was the wall that you wont read. Also, I never really justified why it would be crazy+romanus if cjdrum is innocent. As stated, that was guts. Basically, Day 1, there seems to a slight connection between them. crazy took some pressure off of Romanus, and never actually give an opinion on Romanus, and vice versa. Along with my feeling that crazy is playing similarly to his previous game and that I didn't get a strong scum read on anyone else means that my intuition is that mafia is crazy+romanus.

@Wing, you still haven't answered my question. Why did you switch your views so suddenly Day 3?

[Thor665]

@Misder - there's a big difference between pbpa and giving opinions during the course of the game, don't confuse the two. I presume during Day 2 something happened to change your mind, otherwise you'd be voting for me now, yes? Or do you still hold to the crazy/Thor scumpair.

Also, if you believe in crazy/Thor why did you vote Thor (Romanus) and basically request Pro to hammer cjdrum?

Finally - specifically when do you feel crazy took pressure off Romanus?

[zMuffinMan]

I'm confused as to whether you've caught up on the whole thread yet, since you seem to be replying to posts on this page, but have only given your opinion on the game up until page 9 (unless I'm reading it wrong).

Also, do you intend to answer questions that were asked of Zorblag before he was replaced?

[Thor665]

I've read pages 1-9 and every post since my replace in. I'm being active now because the thread is dying and lagging, and I'm guessing it's not dying and lagging simply because of a lack of my vote - and I'm really good at shaking things up and bullying people into talking again. it's one of my (only?) charms. Plus, I want more than 15 pages of reads considering what the first 9 gave me, so that starts now.

As regards Zorblag questions, I'll answer them if they seem viable and needed to be answered to me, if there's any you definitely wish to have me respond to re-ask, quote, or note which they are and I'll see what I can do for you.

You seemed really aggressive day 1, will I get to discover why you aren't voting yet as I read up? If not, could you clue me in?

Also, what do you think of the likelihood of one of Winged/crazy = scumm0rz as I advanced earlier?

[Thor665]

Page 9.5

Day 2 starts...

Wingboy opts to pull a Paunches Pilate right off the bat - this is especially funny because Romanus/Thor still wasn't lynched Day 2, so he should be frothing on me by Day 3 and I don't think he's one of the ones voting me...I'll have to check that.

crazy leaping on Pro is internally consistent.

The snarling wolf-thing does the first decent vote on Prosaurus for the day.

Everyone knows it is a scum tell to try and guess why the mafia did something,

*cough* WHAT!?!
Noooooooooo!

Sometime after I get everyone talking I am going to go back and pull out some of these winners and offer a bit of a theory discussion post.

Another giant wall post than vote from L - I'd feel better about them if he actually noted stuff I found scummy most of the time. Obviouslly the super quote walls are part of the meta where L and Misder know each other from. Bleh.

And Wing slams into Pro for hammer. Egads - and here was his beautiful Thor=scum case and an admission that he was on the wrong wagon too. Blerpy-derpy.

Lynch Day 2, crazypianist1116, zMuffinMan, [L], WingDamage9001
Familiar faces from lynch Day 1 - crazypianist, WingDamage

(Thor is the only other still living member of Day 1 lynch party)

Hmmmm. Does anyone seriously believe we didn't have at least one scum in on Day 1 lynch? Does anyone beleive we had no scum on the Day 2 lynch? Hi crazy, hi WingyDing. How's it hanging?

Really I do need to do up a full vote count analysis at some stage soon (partly just because it will help you all understand the tool a little) but I also think ti will provide some viable insights for us as we sit at Day 3.

Also, that was a 3 page Day 2, LOLOMGWTF amirite?

Good stopping point, I'll be able to catch up with Zorblag's replace in, and see what sort of commentary was spawned by the lack of a night kill.

[Thor665]

Seventh Vote Count of Day Three:

Thor665 - 2 (crazypianist1116, [L])

[L] - 1 (WingDamage9001)

Wingboy opts to pull a Paunches Pilate right off the bat -

this is especially funny because Romanus/Thor still wasn't lynched Day 2, so he should be frothing on me by Day 3 and I don't think he's one of the ones voting me...I'll have to check that.

Hi again Wings. I'll be really excited to read about how L is obv. scum today and why I wasn't. Internal consistency is tough, isn't it?

I'll finish catching up tomorrow.

I'd like to see answers to accusations, jokes, innuendos, and crude remarks I have made - in that order.

I'd like to see no hammers. I know that's dangerous with you guys, but I believe you can do it.

[Thor665]

Before I go to bed - I am doing that promised theory discussion thing. The below is all theory stuff and does not reflect my particular beliefs or agendas within the game, but I think some of it will be good to hear an alternate viewpoint on for some of you. If you already believe yourself to be super awesome Mafia Player ++ then you can skip it (though I'll wonder what you're doing in this game... )

Spoiler: Behind these walls Thor wears his IC hat and is less awesome and more boring

Now we're getting somewhere. You're giving reasons for your actions. Not particularly good, but they're explanations. Now do you realize that that's not how scumhunting works? People need to individually develop their own opinions of other people, not just blindingly follow the person who's voting (i.e. bandwagonning).

People *should* develop their own reads. But there are indeed many times when it makes sense to sheep and follow others. For instance, I've been town in a game and all my scum reads were GAK. The only read I had faith in was a solid town read on another player who was trying to start a wagon on someone he thought was scum.

I had two options before me;

1. Sit around and try to come up with more reads while not voting.
2. Toss my vote in behind the other player and try to develop more reads while letting my vote serve a (hopefully) useful purpose.

I openly admitted in thread what I was doing and why and tossed out the vote. No one said 'boo' about it because they understood. Now, you don't want to do this all the time, but if you lack reads sheeping people you believe/know are town is a perfectly viable strategy to help you win the game (or absolve yourself of guilt if you're scum, natch. Also, especially in the early game, bandwagoning for very little reason is generally looked upon as a viable and functional town strategy (expect to see me do it like crazy if you ever have to deal with me in an RVS situation - I'm aggressive as all get out and openly admit to bandwagoning and claim all my cases are gold coated in win sugar with a cherry on top).

Everyone knows it is a scum tell to try and guess why the mafia did something,

Let's fix this so it's actually accurate; "some players claim it is foolish (and possibly scummy) to try to guess what the Mafia did...many other equally good and numerous players strongly disagree with them."
I am personally part of the latter camp, and always try to outguess the Mafia (and personally claim everything is WIFOM so consequently WIFOM is meaningless as long as you don't let yourself fall into the never ending logic loop. I've failed town and lost games because of outguessing scum, and conversely I've saved the day and won games for the same. It's a viable strategy, you're allowed to disagree, but you should be mindful of stating it like an absolute as you did above. Very few things (I'd dare say...none?) are absolutes in this game besides what is stated in the rules of the site and the game thread.

I'm bored.

Yes, and? Your solution was to post once with a jokey vote comment and note boredom?

Why are you bored? Because you believe you've already caught scum and are waiting for others to lynch them? Okay...so why aren't you posting explanations showing how the person is scum and how to lynch them. Bored due to lack of conversation? Ask a question. Bored because all the wagons seem dead? Vote someone else to shake things up.

Town loses so often in this game by allowing lethargy and slowness to grab them like slimy japanese tentacle things and treat them like a pre-pubescent schoogirl. Do not allow that to happen to you if you're town (it still will, but recognize it and fight it). As scum it's a different story (and once we're out of this IC block I'll probably advance as such in a later post) but this is an important lesson for town. If things are slow it's probably your fault - everytime. Treat that as a mantra and people will never be likely to accuse you of active lurking ever again.

[zMuffinMan]

I haven't voted yet for a few reasons. You're correct that I'm not being as aggressive as I was previous to today, but I don't think aggression is right today, and had I known there would be a quick lynch day two, it might have changed my choice to be aggressive then as well.

I haven't been confident enough in my reads yet to vote. And considering how quickly the other day phases have ended, I'm taking my time to get today's lynch right.

At the moment I'm considering the possibility that there are two mafia on the Thor wagon, because that would tie in with some of the reads I've been getting on crazy and L. I'm also considering whether one of them is town and the other is bussing you. With the current Thor wagon, I see three options: either you are mafia, there is at least one mafia on the wagon, or the mafia are waiting until they see each other online and are going to quick hammer you. I'm ruling out the third option at the moment for a couple reasons: it simply hasn't happened yet, and I don't think Wing and Misder are scum together for various reasons. So now I'm considering the first two options.

I'm looking at how Wing and Misder are reacting to the Thor wagon that's been created, and I will be looking closely at how you react to it when you've finally read up on today. I'm interested in your analysis on crazy and L. The Wing->L vote and the reasons behind it also interest me, and Wing hasn't been answering the question that Misder has asked I think three times now.

I am liking your posts so far. You're actually pointing out things that I haven't been looking at that are worthy of discussion (for example, the votes from previous days). I don't think that trying to generate discussion like this makes you less scummy, but it does help with my analysis of the game.

Do you play aggressive at MyLo, Thor?

What is your opinion on the day two hammer followed by the lack of night kill followed by Wing's doctor claim? I assume you will get to this when you've fully caught up, but this is one thing I'm particularly interested in you answering.