Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[zMuffinMan]

cjdrum was a newbie playing in a newbie game, all he said was he didn't want to get lynched so he could continue learning. You were twisting what he was saying in an attempt to support your vote on him. And he wasn't just bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, he was bandwagoning to "create pressure" as unsuccessful as that may have actually been, because the IC said it was a good thing to do (or at least that's how he interpreted it).

As for Misder calling you out because he didn't think you're scumhunting, I'm going to drop that because you don't seem to understand the concept of opinions being different from facts - there is no truth value to someone's opinion. You can't tell someone they're blatantly lying if they call your shirt ugly or if they think you look stupid when you try to lick your nose. You got really defensive about an opinion, and you still are being defensive.

Misrep misrep. I never said I didn't support the lynch. I said that Prosaurus' hammer looked so insincere.

I don't buy it. You're calling the hammer insincere when a claim had already been made and Prosaurus had expressed his readiness to hammer multiple times, and you'd posted in between that, so you must have read it. You didn't have a problem with Prosaurus hammering day one, because the "insincerity" in your eyes made him an easy lynch target day two.

So you're saying I shouldn't have criticized him because I thought he was really bad scum?

No, I'm saying the criticism was unnecessary (because.... everyone saw it happen) and you only posted it because you thought it would make yourself seem more pro-town. I would liken it to scum congratulating a doctor for blocking a night kill - it's unnecessary and only done in an attempt to score town points. I also think you made a point of criticising him to set him up for a lynch today.

That's funny, because as far as I was concerned, I've been defending myself.

What? I'm talking about you saying that Zorblag and I are a scum pair.

However this statement contradicts the fact above that he was trying to defend Pro's hammer.

I'm not following what you're accusing me of here. I didn't state my opinion on the hammer at all, I just said that since the hammer (i.e. the content of the post in which he hammered that I mentioned I wanted an explanation for, and his posts during twilight, as well as his posts on day two) he was setting off alarms. The hammer itself didn't tell me anything, really, whereas the hammer itself seems to be the sole reason you voted Prosaurus day two.

As for this little gem...

I just don't see why he wouldn't be pushing for a no lynch if he doesn't believe the claim. We could "verify" the claim, or at least the stance of another player and thus have a better chance at hitting scum.

Do elaborate, because I find this post downright stupid, and this is like the third time you've said it. It makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not that I don't believe the claim, stop putting words in my mouth. I've clearly stated several times that I do believe the claim. However, the issue is that you've told us that Wing and Misder are

confirmed

town. You cannot know this unless you have access to information the rest of us don't, because they are not confirmed town as long as any other possibility exists. Ironically, part of the reason I believe their claim is because you confirmed they are town. And since I think you slipped up there, it makes sense to me that they are town.

Besides that, even if I did want to push a no lynch, I don't think there's any benefit in doing it quickly. I might have missed something, people might want to express their opinions on the game, and there is no reason at all to rush the day phase.

[crazypianist1116]

Pressure isn't a reason to vote in and of itself. If someone gets brought to L-1 during RVS, by cjdrum's argument there's a lot of pressure on that person. However, because it's RVS, there's no reason to actually acknowledge the votes as pressure since they had no valid reasoning.

For the Misder argument, while yes I agree there's a difference between opinion and fact, there are also opinions that are wrong. If you want to argue that Misder was valid in stating his opinion you can, but the way I see it he was either confused on the definition of scumhunting, or not reading what I was saying. Further if you look at post 202, then you'll see that he ignored my question of clarifying his statement.

Re: Prosaurus' Hammer. I was calling the post where he hammered cjdrum insincere. It looked out of place. See my argument above.

I also think you made a point of criticising him to set him up for a lynch today.

And that's exactly why I was advocating a no lynch at the beginning of today!

I was calling you and Zorblag a scum pair by process of elimination. I saw [L] as the most pro-town person here. As I think that wing and misder are town, that leaves you and zorblag as the two remaining candidates. This doesn't require me to make a case on you but rather for me to make a case for [L]'s towniness. Yes I still have to make such a point.

I'm not following what you're accusing me of here. I didn't state my opinion on the hammer at all, I just said that since the hammer (i.e. the content of the post in which he hammered that I mentioned I wanted an explanation for, and his posts during twilight, as well as his posts on day two) he was setting off alarms. The hammer itself didn't tell me anything, really, whereas the hammer itself seems to be the sole reason you voted Prosaurus day two.

Ok I'll give you the point that I read your quote incorrectly. But that doesn't take back the fact that you ignored Romanus all of day two. Nor does it take back that what I said about Prosaurus on day 1 changed from newb to scum read after the hammer. The hammer was not the sole reason for voting Prosaurus.

Re: No lynch. You seem to adamantly believe that the situations stated above are a somewhat likely possibility. As a result, just by choosing randomly, we have a one in three chance of nailing scum. If we no lynch, one person gets their role revealed at night and then we have a two in five chance of nailing scum.

I'm a bit concerned at [L]'s unvote. She doesn't explain what it was about our argument that caused the unvote, and now it looks like she's fencesitting and waiting for other people to vote me or zmuffin so she can ride down the majority into a lynch. Further the lack of defense against post 318 is a bit suspicious. If our argument is relevant to who she thinks is scum, then she needs to state that and why.

[-L-]

@crazy: I'm still writing up my analysis on the discussion between the two of you. Not fence sitting. Soon!

[-L-]

It really bothers me that Zorblag and Wing are so inscribe. >:(

[-L-]

EBWOP: inactive

[Fenchurch]

Fourth Vote Count of Day Three:

Not Voting: 6 (Misder, WingDamage9001, zMuffinMan, Zorblag, crazypianist1116, [L])

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

[WingDamage9001]

EBWOP: inactive

Sorry about that. I'm here, I just haven't had much to say. The only strong read I have now is a scum read on [L].

[crazypianist1116]

Care to elaborate? While no one really suspects you, your vote still counts as we're in MyLo.

[Zorblag]

I had a busy middle of the week and I'll need to take a look at this game again tomorrow. I do know that I'm please with a lot of zMuffinMan's Post 315. It feels sincere. I'll have some things to say about it in terms of what I agree and disagree with but the tone is good.

@[L], if WingDamage9001 is in your top three for scum suspects despite the claim I wonder who all you think would be likely partners. Based on the rest of what you've had to say I think I could take a pretty good guess. I'll also be more than happy to admit that I came in and moved the game to a mass claim; I took a look at our situation and decided that it was the best move. I then presented arguments that were intended to convince the rest of you of that fact and went forward with the assumption that people would listen. I'm pretty happy that they did as I feel that the town has gained information and are in better shape that we would likely have been had we not done it. Actually, the fact that you seem to think that there's a decent chance that WingDamage9001 could still be scum would seem to be a reason to hold out for the no lynch here as we wouldn't have gained the information that I'm claiming we probably did and which is what makes lynching today make more sense.

I'm still pretty interested in seeing what you have to say about crazypianist1116 (as well as what he has to say about you.) Apparently neither of you have found the other particularly scummy given that neither of you have made each other's scum lists. That's no necessarily bad but I'm interested in the reasons why.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[zMuffinMan]

Pressure isn't a reason to vote in and of itself. If someone gets brought to L-1 during RVS, by cjdrum's argument there's a lot of pressure on that person. However, because it's RVS, there's no reason to actually acknowledge the votes as pressure since they had no valid reasoning.

I don't think cjdrum's play was good town-play, I am simply saying that it was justified (even if poorly), due to him being a newb following what he thought the IC was telling him was a good thing. Romanus supported bandwagoning to create pressure, and probably due to not fully understanding what Romanus was suggesting, and the fact that Romanus was the IC, cjdrum bandwagoned on his advice.

This was my interpretation when I read cjdrum's posts. I didn't get a particularly scum or town read from what he was saying. Yes, I could see newbscum doing this to appear like newbtown, but I can also see newbtown being just as likely to do it (the fact that newbtown could do something like this is why newbscum would do it, QED).

So what I want an explanation for is:

1) How did you determine cjdrum was newbscum, not newbtown? Is it purely because you think cjdrum didn't have a real reason to bandwagon?
2) How did you determine Prosaurus was newbtown, even though you thought he was scummy and newb (but not newbscum)?

the way I see it he was either confused on the definition of scumhunting, or not reading what I was saying.

My interpretation of what Misder was saying is that you were only trying to appear like you were scumhunting (i.e. his opinion was that you're scum pretending to do it). Ergo, you getting overly defensive about it seemed fitting.

Re: Prosaurus' Hammer. I was calling the post where he hammered cjdrum insincere. It looked out of place. See my argument above.

I saw your argument about his insincerity, and I don't think it's valid, considering you made no mention of it before day 2, even though Prosaurus clearly stated more than once that he was ready to hammer. It seems odd that you only thought there was insincerity after the hammer actually occurred.

And that's exactly why I was advocating a no lynch at the beginning of today!

I don't think you really had a choice, even if you wanted to get Wing lynched.

But that doesn't take back the fact that you ignored Romanus all of day two.

Day two lasted 3 real-time days (I posted 4 times, and one was an ebwop...), and ended with a really unexpected hammer before a claim even took place. Romanus had a single post day two, and it added nothing to the game, other than explaining his inactivity (which seemed to start about one real-time day before the first day phase ended). I thought it was a better use of my time to extract information out of Prosaurus, considering I found some of his play scummy, and I thought the day would last a bit longer than it did.

Re: No lynch. You seem to adamantly believe that the situations stated above are a somewhat likely possibility. As a result, just by choosing randomly, we have a one in three chance of nailing scum. If we no lynch, one person gets their role revealed at night and then we have a two in five chance of nailing scum.

You should feel the same, unless you are absolutely sure you are right about the night events.

Even if I saw no benefit in lynching today, it doesn't follow that I'd push for a no lynch immediately.

[Misder]

To clarify my post, Muffinman has it right when I didn't believe that what crazy did was truly scumhunting. I feel that he could have provided much more if he was thinking about who could be mafia. I never really did justify that crazy didn't scumhunt. It was just that reading the previous game, I feel similarities. ie. in previous game, fakescumhunting h3llo. I also find it a bit weird that crazy has contributed to both town lynch- however, this does not mean too much in of itself- but I don't feel that crazy was actually strongly wanting those lynches, and were more of a "other people are doing it, I should too." That's how I feel about it at least.
I also do realize it looks like im kinda tunneling on crazy, but I am still reading through everyone's posts.
I'm still waiting on L's analysis.
Also, everyone should keep in mind interactions between people when scumhunting.

[-L-]

Posts 318-322 caused me to strongly doubt my vote. I got the feeling that two townies were going at it, and that the scum were lurking. I honestly get the feeling of being handled by those who are more experienced. I'm very grateful to how Zorblag taught me things like how mass claims work; but when I think about the conclusions drawn I cannot see his logic. I've played a lot of mafia in the real world - but it can't be all that different. When mass claims happen, people lie. It happened! So what if more people were not lying, besides scum?

I see muffinman and crazy going back and forth on the prosaurus/cjdrum issue. It's as if they cannot agree. To me, and obvious town tell is when two of them really argue and disagree on things, especially something so [in hindsight] miniscule.

Honestly I'm fuzzy and unsure when it comes to the concept of nolynch. Sure - I understand "what" it is, but when I try to understand how to apply/use it - it isn't clear. I can't tell if I'm being told what to do - so my obvious reaction to such treatment is to vote the person I see as scummiest.

Muffinman strikes me as very scummy because of his wording, his defensiveness, and how he misrepresents some arguments. [For instance - saying I was attacking his defensiveness over his argument, when in fact I was attacking his defensiveness period.]

Crazy also strikes me as scummy not because of buddying, as Muff described - but because of his lack of scumhunting [which can be said of Muff as well], and his defensiveness.

When I put the two together, and look at the combined defensiveness, it strikes me that possibly we have two townies fighting each other and the scum are sitting back and laughing.

This led me to unvote. Crazy then suspected me of fencesitting [which is a legitimate thought, and a townie one at that]. But I am waiting for Zorblag and Wing to contribute much more.

@zorblag: I believe his [wing's] partner is you. I stated this twice before. And if that's not right, then it's you and muffinman. Granted the claim is somewhat believable - but only if we were to believe the scum definitely did try to kill. I see the possibility of a gambit too large to ignore, and a doctor claim too plausible in that situation. So tell me how nolynch fits? If we have scum, shouldn't we be lynching them?

Regarding your statement about finding crazy scummy - he hasn't posted enough through the days - and he honestly didn't register on my scumdar. That's why I've been taking a second look at him. But in evaluating Muffin vs Crazy - my conclusion is that they are townies fighting at each other's throats.

Posting after a two day job fair.

[crazypianist1116]

VOTE: Zorblag
I'm really not seeing zmuffinman as scummy anymore. He defends his posts extremely well, and if he's scum, he's playing really well for a first game. Zorblag on the other hand has been posting a ton of theory, and has been asking other people to make cases for each other while going under the radar himself. One could argue that he's posting theory merely for the fact that he's the IC. There's still the fact however, that his stances aren't that well supported. I'm willing to bet he took the stance against zmuffin merely because both wingdamage and I looked as if we had scum reads on zmuffin around post 285.
Yes I know this is a sudden change of stance, but I've been really mulling this over for the past 2 days or so, and I feel like I'm right.
There's no need to worry about a quicklynch yet as there needs to be 4 votes for a lynch.

Zorblag, could you explain this better? Preferably with examples rather than broad statements.

Right, so looking through zMuffinMan's posts I find it particularly fascinating that neither crazypianist1116 nor [L] had anything to say about his take on Romanus's actions. It's not like there wasn't anything to say there and it went largely un-commented about. As far as the play itself goes there's a reluctance to change votes in the early game that I find more common in scum trying to seem consistent with their actions than I do town trying to figure out who's scum in a game. We've also got the same argument that Prosaurus is probably scum because he seemed certain of something that I'm seeing used against crazypianist1116 now; I think that in both cases he's taking statements and applying too much certainty without use of context; I don't think that either one was meant as an absolute but that's how they're being taken as far as I can tell.

zmuffinman, if you want responses to questions in your post above, I'll give them, but I'm also willing to drop the argument if you are.

[Fenchurch]

Fifth Vote Count of Day Three:

Zorblag - 1 (crazypianist1116)

Not Voting: 6 (Misder, WingDamage9001, zMuffinMan, Zorblag, [L])

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

Prodding WingDamage9001, Zorblag and zMuffinMan.

[crazypianist1116]

Bueller? Bueller?

[WingDamage9001]

I'm still here. I just don't know where to go with this. If I had to vote, I would be looking at Crazy right now.

[-L-]

@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

As people in my last game said, Mafia tend to be the ones who can't get reads (Real or false).

...To quote Prosaurus.

Vote: Wing

Not knowing by this stage of the game, and not placing a vote at all during the day is not productive, or pro-town.

[-L-]

Hmm, but one sec. It's not possible for there to be no power roles; is it?

[crazypianist1116]

It is possible actually (unless you consider scum power roles as well). See the first few posts for info.

[zMuffinMan]

I've been really lethargic since Friday; I slept for about 14 hours after my last post and just haven't really had the energy to post until now. Sorry about that.

@L

You weren't attacking my "defensiveness", you were attacking me talking about different possible scenarios around the night events.

Ironically, you're now voting Wing, who could only possibly be mafia if he is part of a roleblocker/goon combination and they chose not to submit a night kill last night by gambling on the setup.

Why don't you believe Wing's claim?

@crazypianist,

The only questions I asked in my last post were to do with how you got your tells on cjdrum and Prosaurus on day one.

[Misder]

The only problem with a Wing vote is that how the crap could mafia predict that there would be no doctor? That's a huge gamble and that Wing claimed first, the most risky of the claims. Also, he said that he protected me, which makes sense to me. However, a Wing+Zorblag could be a team. It would be Wing taking the gamble. Since they have two mafia, Wing can sacrifice. And it could look like Zorblag initiated the mass roleclaim meaning maybe look like town. Also, Wing is not looking like the Wing I saw in his previous game ie tunneling and freaking attacking/really going at one person. He also changes his opinion a lot recently.

@Zorblag, can you analyze the people you think is most likely mafia?

[-L-]

I was defending the point strongly because it tied in with one of the reasons I'm suspicious of crazypianist today. crazypianist posted without even looking at possible alternatives. I don't like that. Even if they aren't as likely, they're still possible.

And yes, this particular part of my argument is similar to one particular part of my argument against Prosaurus. That is very perceptive of you, Zorblag.

Defending at this point is not what a townie would be concerned with doing. It is almost as if he is deflecting to crazy.

And when he says "How perceptive of you, Zorblag", that sent chills down my spine. Intuition says he fails.

I was attacking your defensiveness.

Ironically, you're now voting Wing, who could only possibly be mafia if he is part of a roleblocker/goon combination and they chose not to submit a night kill last night by gambling on the setup.

Why don't you believe Wing's claim?

Ironically? Really? What's ironic about it? And the setup you mention has never occurred to me - and also makes no sense. Why is a roleblocker absolutely necessary? What I think has happened is that an experienced mafia player is playing a gambit - no idea what their actual mafia role is. I believe it's to teach us newbs what to do in a situation like this. Wing's claim is plausible - unless you take into account the scumtells pouring off of him. Scumtell 1: He doesn't hunt. Scumtell 2: He doesn't help us. Scumtell 3: He hammered Pro [although I was happy that day because I thought we got scum] with little explanation except to say he didn't want to "barnacle". Scumtell 4: He hasn't participated even though I called him out. That's lurking. >:( And the fact that Zorblag/Romanus has been quiet as well, and everyone [except me ] has suspected him from the beginning, makes me believe more in the gambit idea.

If I were to throw away the idea of the gambit, then I could believe Wing's claim, and chalk his behavior up to a hiding doctor. But I'd rather follow my gut.

Who are your suspects Muffinman? Who do you suspect most?

@crazy: Do you believe Zorblag is scum?

[-L-]

Oh hi Misder WB!

LOL. If you were to place your vote, where would you place it right about now?

Thanks for showing up

[Misder]

Yeah, sorry about that. Hopefully I can plow through this and homework and not kill myself.

L, that's a hard question cause I was going to reevaluate after answers to my requests. I'm still fine with either a Zorblag or a crazy vote. But to actually answer your question, I would vote for crazy just because Zorblag already has a vote, and and L-2 is very dangerous.

@Wing, why do you change your tells frequently day 3?

[crazypianist1116]

@[L]
F11
Will answer questions later.