Mini 1141 - Frogs Mafia 2 - GAME, SET, MATCH

[Amrun]

I quoted the whole post. I didn't strip it of context. I can't quote all the posts around it; that would be far too long and pointless.

My vote switch actually wasn't a result of your questioning, but your post where you looked scummier to me did seal the deal.

But WHY did you think they were scum?

[MrBuddyLee]

Tuncali, mozamis is dead. A review of your post history indicates that you don't believe anyone else in the game is scum. Can you give us an update please, and perhaps give this game a bit more effort moving forward?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I quoted the whole post. I didn't strip it of context. I can't quote all the posts around it; that would be far too long and pointless.

This isn't about what you quoted. The problem is that your analysis was off because you ignored the context. That post's sole purpose was to correct mozamis' misinterpretation of one of MBL's posts, whereas you interpreted it as if I were expounding my point of view. The situation called for simplicity, not nuance.

My vote switch actually wasn't a result of your questioning, but your post where you looked scummier to me did seal the deal.

Looking back I have trouble determining to which post you're referring. Link?

But WHY did you think they were scum?

I'm too lazy to really go into that right now. Suffice it to say, the reasons should be obvious.

[Amrun]

The question was about both. Buddying tends to be scum on town.

Do you think my explanations were accurate? Do you think MBL could've given those explanations himself? Do you think scum would tend to link themselves to their partner like that?

This is the post I meant. WIFOM ahoy.


And I read the other post in context and still disagreed.


As for "being too lazy," if you think that helps me reverse my scumread on you, you'd be wrong.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you think the intent of that post was to defend myself?

And I read the other post in context and still disagreed.

Elaborate. Do you think my post was ill-suited to achieve its stated purpose or do you think it's always scummy to present simplifications?

As for "being too lazy," if you think that helps me reverse my scumread on you, you'd be wrong.

Obviously.

[Amrun]

Yes, I do.

It's not always scummy to present simplifications, but in this case, I found it to be so, especially since I disagreed with the simplification itself.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you disagree with the nuanced position?

[Amrun]

I don't know what you mean by that question.

[Meransiel]

Seems like a town on town argument to me, albeit a weird one...

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

A dayvig that screws with vote mechanics? Sound pretty hax if it's true.

Amrun, why did you post this?

2.)

MrBuddyLee, coming back at you. You claim that when people have “obvious scum” but then vote somebody else, they are “protecting” the obvious scum. This has been bugging me for a while.

If somebody does something suspicious in a recent post, then it is certainly not uncommon to vote for them immediately even if you think somebody is more suspicious. The reason is obvious: asking a question (or claiming to be suspicious of somebody) without a corresponding vote is not nearly as forceful as saying “this is scummy” followed by a vote.

Mafia is not necessarily a game of “keeping your vote on the scummiest player at all times,” which seems to be how you are trying to read this game. Mafia is a game of doing what is necessary to weed out the scum. Which often involves moving your vote around.

I have to say, your posts are just not reading like Town to me. It seems like you’re just calling people terrible players whenever they attack you. I have to sympathize with mozamis: it certainly does seem like you’re being more of an ass this game than I remember you normally being.

When’s the last time you’ve been? Would you mind linking me to that game?

Did you constantly people out as being terrible, dimwits, etc., in Oldy Mafia? I’m not about to read that monstrosity of a game just to try to meta you.

3.)

nopointinactingup, after rereading your posts, you really sound like a broken record. Mind giving your opinions on some players whose name does not start with “M”?

4.)

Darkstrike_11, your Post 313 continually bugs me for the same reason.

Essentially, your first several points are written in the past-tense; as if you wrote them

after you had already read.

But the remainder of your points are in the present tense, as if you are commenting as you read. Tell me true: did you edit your first few points after you had already done some reading?

5.)

Meransiel, why did you go from “nobody hammer mozamis” to “I hereby declare that I will hammer unless petro posts”?

6.)

MrBuddyLee, getting tired of stuff like this. You attacked OhGodMyLife for saying “isn’t it obvious that mozamis and Meransiel are scum?” Then you attacked nopointinactingup “for improperly tying M&M together.”

Yet you have

constantly

pointed out that you thought Meransiel and mozamis were scum, and you have

constantly

pointed out how they have protected each other (and not only that, but how others have been “protecting” Meransiel and mozamis).

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier. You look like a complete hypocrite. You call M&M out for being scum, and for protecting each other, and then you use that as your basis of attack on others.

Vote: MrBuddyLee

.

[petroleumjelly]

When’s the last time you’ve been

scum

? Would you mind linking me to that game?

Question fixed.

[petroleumjelly]

Cogito Ergo Sum, next opportunity you get, would you mind comparing MrBuddyLee's play in Oldy to his play here? What is your opinion of him?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Superficially, his play here is definitely similar but whereas I had a gut town read on him there he feels a little off here. He wasn't as "jerkish" but, no offense to the players here, the standard of play was higher in Oldy; he was a little negative towards Ether at times though, so it's definitely not without precedent.

[Apokalyptika]

Ok, I've reread. The flip wasn't actually as helpful in forming reads as I'd thought it would be, but I'm gonna

Vote: nopoint

. He's been tunneled hardcore onto MBL, and made the occasional remark about Meransiel and moz, then randomly bandwagoned onto the "OMG vig moz" thing and barely mentioned it before or since. Oddly enough, I'm also suspicious of MBL; he's focused on discrediting players, and he's left himself wide open. He could go after me, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint, or CES fairly easily right now, and that's just from quickly skimming his recent posts.

[Meransiel]

5.)

Meransiel, why did you go from “nobody hammer mozamis” to “I hereby declare that I will hammer unless petro posts”?

To force you to post, naturally. Wasn't really going to do it.

[petroleumjelly]

5.)

Meransiel, why did you go from “nobody hammer mozamis” to “I hereby declare that I will hammer unless petro posts”?

To force you to post, naturally. Wasn't really going to do it.

And why, exactly, would you be trying to "force" the most obviously Town player in the game to post? It's not as if I was avoiding the game.

[MrBuddyLee]

@all: Sorry for the wall-of-text, but PJ's accusations require some level of detail in order to accurately refute them.

2.)

MrBuddyLee, coming back at you.

You claim that when people have “obvious scum” but then vote somebody else, they are “protecting” the obvious scum.

This has been bugging me for a while.

If somebody does something suspicious in a recent post, then it is certainly not uncommon to vote for them immediately even if you think somebody is more suspicious. The reason is obvious: asking a question (or claiming to be suspicious of somebody) without a corresponding vote is not nearly as forceful as saying “this is scummy” followed by a vote.

Mafia is not necessarily a game of “keeping your vote on the scummiest player at all times,” which seems to be how you are trying to read this game. Mafia is a game of doing what is necessary to weed out the scum. Which often involves moving your vote around.

False representation. I specifically said the poor quality of the case they switched to was what's relevant.

Spoiler:

Not sure why you keep missing this point, particularly since I directed it at you personally, PJ. You think the

particular

case they switched to (MBL) was

fallacious and terrible

. Others agree. Therefore, it's worth considering why people switched

from

cases they found "certain"

to

cases you and others find

atrocious

. If it was switching from one good case to another it'd be less suspect.

================== end spoiler ===========================

6.)

MrBuddyLee, getting tired of stuff like this. You attacked OhGodMyLife for saying “isn’t it obvious that mozamis and Meransiel are scum?” Then you attacked nopointinactingup “for improperly tying M&M together.”

Yet you have

constantly

pointed out that you thought Meransiel and mozamis were scum, and you have

constantly

pointed out how they have protected each other (and not only that, but how others have been “protecting” Meransiel and mozamis).

It's dishonest to compare my behavior towards "M&M" to OGML's or nopoint's. (Or Amrun's.)

Spoiler:

Here's are my references to them acting weird towards each other, in which I clearly state the weak connection doesn't make them scum in and of itself:

I agree it's curious that mozamis is defending Meransiel overly stridently, but

why does that mean to you that it's scum defending town?

You(mozamis) said someone attacked Meransiel on flimsy or suspicious grounds, but you don't seem to care who that person was. If you were town, you'd care who brought it up and whether their attack was just "unconvincing" or if it was actually "suspicious". So I want to know who made the bad argument, and I want to know whether you find it suspicious or not. And by watching you explain that,

I hope to better ascertain whether your defense of Meransiel is suspect or not

.

mozamis is obviously connecting himself intentionally to Meransiel for no good reason I can tell. I don't see much town motivation for that, and

it also doesn't make Meransiel scummier

because it's the kind of thing scum in trouble could do to try to hitch themselves to a townie. tl;dr: if scot or Meransiel flip scum, moz looks bad for protection/buddying(Mer)

Why have you been defending Meransiel to the point where he appears to be wary of you?

Did you get an amazing townread off him or something?

I'm clearly asking questions to try to ascertain whether there's a scummy connection, not assuming there is one like others did. And instead of painting with broad strokes, I made it clear that most of the "protection" was unidirectional.

I'm not sure why you don't see the difference between OGML's:

doesn't this just seem really.. obvious? I mean. So obvious. Moz and meransiel. Everyone weigh in on them. Is there something funky going on here or what?

and the specific evidence I've been posting. Evidence, not innuendo!

Unlike OGML (and Amrun, and possibly a few others), I didn't try to paint M&M with a broad nonspecific scummy swath just because they behaved strangely towards one another. It's what Amrun recently tried to do with CES and me and she got called out on it.

I haven't used "weirdness between two players" as primary evidence for their scumminess. And at this point, mozamis didn't come up scum, so much of that evidence is moot.

================== end spoiler ===========================

This is even more dishonest:

You look like a complete hypocrite. You call M&M out for being scum, and for protecting each other, and then you use that as your basis of attack on others.

Spoiler:

* I called mozamis possible/likely scum and Meransiel about 5th on the list. More importantly, I pointed out specific things Meransiel did,

independent

of mozamis, that made Meransiel somewhat scummy. I constantly pointed out that mozamis was terrible and doing scummy things,

independent

of his behavior towards Meransiel. You have yet to disagree with any of the evidence I presented on either of them.

* I used "M&M protecting each other" as a basis for attacking others? False.

* I used M&M being scum as a basis for attacking others? False.

Mozamis flipped town. Connections drawn to him are useless. The only reason I drew possible connections at the time was because I thought he might come up scum, and I was thinking aloud about who might be protecting him by voting me on a bad case.

================== end spoiler ===========================

I have to say, your posts are just not reading like Town to me. It seems like you’re just calling people terrible players whenever they attack you. I have to sympathize with mozamis: it certainly does seem like you’re being more of an ass this game than I remember you normally being.

Did you constantly people out as being terrible, dimwits, etc., in Oldy Mafia? I’m not about to read that monstrosity of a game just to try to meta you.

If you take issue with me calling particular play "terrible", please point out specifics. I reserve the right to call terrible play terrible, and if someone repeatedly carelessly misreads me, (eg: reads my posts defending them as attacking them), I reserve the right to call them a knucklehead or some such similar. It's frustrating and sometimes disrespectful when people don't take the time to read carefully.
Evidence that my frustration is valid:

Spoiler:

I posted this, solely attacking

nopoint

for improperly basing his "circular" cases too much on M&M's interactions (by inference, my post defends mozamis):
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2927770
And mozamis replied:

At least the main point people will go away with is "Moz amis could be scum....". Lol another classic Buddy post. Intelligent, awesomely presented and full of vague suspicions, and of course the inevitable pseudo-subliminal nonsense about "M+M".
A scum tour de force! Bravo

I believe it was the second or third time he'd done that.

It's a misread of my post by mozamis that defies any and all common sense and logic. Take a moment to read it, PJ. You obviously haven't, or you'd understand. It's frustrating and insulting when a player refuses to read the game carefully, and plays politics instead of playing based on evidence.

================== end spoiler ===========================

Quotes from Oldy, in which I was also town and called terrible play terrible:

Spoiler:

IH, what kind of phone do you have? Because you suck at posting from it. If it's like an enV, this makes perfect sense, but if you have an iPhone or Droid, everyone should switch their votes to your lurky ass.

(stark saying) lazy and stupid was a wee bit harsh, but otherwise stark's post was spot-on. How are we supposed to ascertain your alignment right now? You look more like scum than anyone in this game at the moment, and you're being intentionally obtuse in a futile attempt to make your pursuers look bad. It's not going to work, and you're going to rack up justified votes.

If you're town, intentionally giving everyone valid reasons to vote you doesn't help the town. If you're scum, you're boring.

If I had the dayvig I'd pop Ecto right now. I'm not confident in his alignment, though--he hasn't given us much to work with--off the top of my head I can recall he thinks Yos and I are scum, Gurgi is halfscum possibly protecting Mert, and Fritz is town. That's about it. Apparently his blockheadedness isn't indicative of alignment.

Specifically to this point, Ecto's #1 suspect is me OMGUS. I have obvious reasons for not respecting that "read". His #2 suspect is Yos, a suspicion that materialized the moment Yos called him out for the same thing I did. OMGUS #2.

So yes, I feel qualified right now, mid-day-one, to say Ecto's "reads" this game suck. They're pure OMGUS and I have no idea how anyone can possibly be getting a genuine town read off him right now.

Actually, the timeline goes:
...
* If you're town, this is terrible play

It's been a week since you've said anything that could be remotely construed as conducive to catching scum. IH has the excuse of "broken computer"/"playing LoL". What's yours?

Mert, Glork, CES, Yos, DGB, why specifically are you voting Ecto?

I just reviewed people's stated reasons for being on the wagon and they're terrible or mealymouthed or nonexistent.

Stark, is the guy scum or are we just removing him from the game for intransigence? Or likely both?

This is the entire case you've posted on Ecto. It sounds more like you believe he's crappy town, or want to blame me if/when he comes up town.

Regardless, Ecto's reads at that time were pretty self-centered. "This guy is attacking me, he's scum." "This guy is agreeing with me or defending me, he's town."

I think it's charming that in Oldy Mafia, you've joined me in the inevitable march towards senility.

Jesus H Christmas.. please just answer the question. Why are you willing to hammer Yos when you recently said he was likely town?

I've read my face off trying to tell whether your fairly lazy posting is possibly lazy town. I'm not tunneling. And I'm not full of shit. If you can't tell that from my posts, you're not paying attention.

================== end spoiler ===========================

Last game as scum? Possibly Hotel California:
http://mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7926

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm also suspicious of MBL; he's focused on discrediting players

How would you differentiate my "discrediting" from scumhunting?

he's left himself wide open. He could go after me, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint, or CES fairly easily right now, and that's just from quickly skimming his recent posts.

Do you have reason to find any of those other players townish? If so, please share.

[MrBuddyLee]

@implosion, Apok, scot and Amrun, what do you think of Meransiel? (scot, you gave an updated read, but I'd like that "more info" you mentioned.)

[Amrun]

Pj: I simply had never seen such a role before. Since then, I've already seen it again, which showed me my surprise was unwarranted. Overall, the comment was just to say "that's cool," ie totally not important at all.

MBL: I still have to re-read, but I promise to answer this question asap.

[Apokalyptika]

I'm also suspicious of MBL; he's focused on discrediting players

How would you differentiate my "discrediting" from scumhunting?

he's left himself wide open. He could go after me, Amrun, Tuncali, nopoint, or CES fairly easily right now, and that's just from quickly skimming his recent posts.

Do you have reason to find any of those other players townish? If so, please share.

Well, your discrediting has more to do with implying that the other player is a weak player, thus discrediting reads they may have. For instance, calling moz "kid" all the time, saying Amrun is playing "blonde" and sloppy, etc. I've already said that I have town reads on Amrun and Tuncali. Tuncali because I think that newb-scum would be more jumpy and defensive, and Amrun because his posts have been fairly decent this game.

[scotmany12]

I will get up a post first thing tomorrow when I wake up.

[implosion]

If mozamis comes up town, I don't think it points to anyone being more so scum due to the fact that she looks solidly scum individually, making a pretty easy bus for any partner.

If mozamis comes up town (which we now know he did) what does that have to do with bussing?

I'm pretty sure nopoint was talking about me distancing from M&M in that segment. And I'm not distancing from anyone in this game--thus, incorrect.

Ah.

I was uncertain about mozamis, and I'm uncertain about nopoint. "dumb, or scum?" is the indelicate way to put it. I typed up that case on nopoint, and a part of me said "he's trying, he's just locked on like an autistic pit bull". I read a few games of his play as scum and town, and this didn't look typical for him. I want to see more breadth from the guy--so much of his posting is anti-MBL, and I want to temper any OMGUS I feel rising in my throat.

I guess I see what you're saying after the mozamis flip.

Actually, I just reread nopoint a little and there is a question that you (MBL) ignored or didn't see:

How bout you reply to this
-->

Stop lying. You retract your statement apx 10 hours after you made your so called "gambit to see who's paying attention". If it was really a gambit, why would you reveal it right when only about 3 people have seen it. Sounds to me like you making justifications for your sorry self.

I'd actually like to see your response to this, MBL. The only response that I see is you saying that it was 5 and not 3; that essentially sidesteps the main argument.

I still think mer could be scum. He is definitely up there on my choices of who we should lynch. But his recent contributions have a towny vibe to them. I could explain more needed on that.

I agree, and I think I said something like this in the post where I voted mozamis. Meransiel's more recent contributions lack the scumminess that I saw in earlier posts, and have been overall more logical.

@implosion's question: I did explain why I thought so. Anything unclear?

So you did. However, in rereading those posts, you actually (in ISO 59) said you would suspect/vote MBL if mozamis flipped town. mozamis has flipped town, and yet your opinion on MBL appears unchanged. In fact, your next mention of MBL is your ISO 68, where you say "I don't think of MBL as scum." Did you change your opinion about a mozamis townflip?

A litter higher in your post, you said that if mozamis flips town, we won't have much information to work with. That was the eventuality I was concerned with, and thus wanted to get more people on the record about more people, just in case. Fortunately, it was a vig instead of a mislynch, so we have more time to get people on the record today, but do you really see "who else is scum besides #1 suspect?" being a question loaded with scum motivation? If sheeping was the purpose, couldn't I just sheep after they vote the mislynch instead of asking the question?

Makes sense. Something about the post just looked a little out of place, maybe... I mean, it's the kind of thing where the question could be town motivated or scum motivated. The scum motivation (to elaborate a little) for doing it like that instead of just sheeping the mislynch would be to "set up" the mislynch, so that you know who you're going to be able to push on to get mislynches.

Also, who do you see as having sheeped on to others' mozamis suspicions as we're discussing here?

The wagon at the last VC before the flip was (tuncali, nopointinactingup, implosion, Apokalyptica, Cogito Ergo Sum). Of the four that weren't me, tuncali didn't really sheep. I almost wanna say that nopoint sheeped, but he did offer original evidence (albeit not very logical) when he voted. Apok's wasn't really sheepy. CES didn't explain his vote at all. From the one marathon game of experience I have with him, that's normal for him, but it's still basically sheeping since he offered no explanation. So CES was the sheepiest. I don't really see anyone else that fits the bill of a sheep, and I wouldn't really expect to; mozamis was really scummy. If scum were pushing on him, it wouldn't have been difficult for them to create their own evidence.

Anyway, I'll look at pj's case/MBL's response in the morning, I've spent too much time on this post ._.

[kunkstar7]

If mozamis comes up town, I don't think it points to anyone being more so scum due to the fact that she looks solidly scum individually, making a pretty easy bus for any partner.

If mozamis comes up town (which we now know he did) what does that have to do with bussing?

True that, not sure how I made that comment. In any case, my intention was to state that since mozamis looked solidly scummy most anybody could get on that wagon without much scrutiny, so her flip as town didn't tell either way for people in my opinion.

[Darkstrike_11]

ahhhhh!

I'm really sorry that I've been away from the game, guys, I've had end of term and moving back from uni, so I apologise deeply. Now that moz is confirmed town (but dead), I will hopefully do another read through the thread and post again by the end of the day.

again, apologies for the absence!