Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[Misder]

@crazy, I'll argue that what you did wasn't truly scumhunting. On cjdrum- I'll give you an obvious FOS that you pointed out, which is fine, but barely any work was done- just connected two posts. Then on Pro, you just took apart his analysis, and then called him very scummy- maybe because I'm biased cause I got an opposite read on his analysis, even though I'll agree it was bad- but I also don't see picking apart analysis as scumhunting either.

And this one http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16399

I'm going to sleep now =D night!

[Prosaurus]

Sorry about the quadruple posting. I write a post, hit submit, then realize I forgot something or that I made a mistake in the post.

[crazypianist1116]

If pointing out flaws in other people's arguments isn't scumhunting, what is? Also what are the parallels?

[Misder]

@crazy, I don't know if the question you are referring to is the one that muffin asked, but I answered that post 188

and @Pro- yeah, in my notes, I didn't have it linked to the post, so all I did was copy and paste. I'll do it next time if I figure out how to link a post :/

Also, the notes are only thoughts right when I read them, which means I do I have to reread them again

[Misder]

@crazy new post- that requires me to actually write stuff out- I'll do it tomorrow on why I feel like there are parallels
@everyone else- you guys could read that game and see if you get the same thoughts that I do

[Prosaurus]

Hmmmm. Misder, you seem a bit too trusting of most people, almost as if you know we're town. I'm beginning to see what L saw, but I must admit you are in fact scumhunting and doing your best. You shouldn't think of anyone as town till they're dead. You should really be thinking how scummy they are, and voting for the scummiest.

[Fenchurch]

Final Vote Count of Day One:

cjdrum - 5 (McGriddle, Romanus, crazypianist1116, WingDamage9001, Prosaurus)

Romanus - 3 (zMuffinMan, cjdrum, Misder)
Misder - 1 ([L])

Not Voting: 0

You agree that cjdrum is the most likely suspect as mafia. Hell, even cjdrum agrees. You lynch him, but a search of his house afterwards turns up nothing of importance.

cjdrum,

Townie

was lynched Day 1.

It is now Night 1, the deadline for Night Actions is: Wednesday, 30th March at 9:51 am GMT.

[Fenchurch]

Despite the failure of the previous lynching, you all immediately go to bed for the night. Nervously waking the next morning, you do a headcount... someone is missing.

McGriddle,

Townie

was killed Night 1.

Day 2 begins!

With seven alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Not Voting: 7 ([L], crazypianist1116, Misder, Prosaurus, Romanus, WingDamage9001, zMuffinMan)

Deadline is: Tuesday, 19th April at 9:01 am GMT.

[WingDamage9001]

Vote Romanus

Will post more later.

[WingDamage9001]

Vote Romanus

Will post more later.

And I'm back.

I never should have left the Romanus wagon. He was the lynch for day one, and we screwed up there. McGriddle didn't have strong interaction with anyone, but the interaction he did have was with Romanus. We need to lynch this scum.

[crazypianist1116]

VOTE: Prosaurus
I'm not convinced the hammer was completely altruistic especially after I was getting somewhere asking cjdrum questions. Playing the newb card so much for my case against him yesterday didn't settle well with me either.

I'll let Romanus respond to wingdamage's vote before I give my opinion to that.

[WingDamage9001]

Where is everyone?

[crazypianist1116]

Well everyone was sent a pm.

[Prosaurus]

VOTE: Romanus
Going by my reasons from Day 1.
Honestly, I understood cjdrum was in fact a newb, but after one game even I learnt how to not be mislynched.
I'm guessing the scum aren't too bright killing the most inactive player. They should have killed the IC. Unless (*GASP*) the IC is scum.

[crazypianist1116]

I can't even begin to explain the WIFOM in the above statement. On top of that, Romanus is an unliked player and if he isn't scum then it would be easy for scum to lynch him rather than waste a night kill on him. You also give no reason for WHY scum should have killed the IC.

[zMuffinMan]

!vote Prosaurus

While I would vote for Romanus, having an IC can be useful even if they are scum

Quote from when you hammered cjdrum. Explain.

cjdrum, since you're actually confirmed town, it means you can say anything you want and we'll believe it.

Quote from during twilight. cjdrum was not confirmed town at that point, and there was no logical reason to even say something like this. He had no information to give that everyone in the game didn't already know.

I'm guessing the scum aren't too bright killing the most inactive player. They should have killed the IC. Unless (*GASP*) the IC is scum.

Remarking that scum aren't too bright for killing McGriddle - while voting for the IC. Is it that you don't think the IC, who you are supposedly learning from, is a bright player?

[Prosaurus]

@ crazy They should kill the IC because the IC is the one who helps newbs most, and this is a Newbie Game.

@Muffin IC answers questions, scum or not.
cjdrum claimed town after twilight. No point lying then is there? They might have had their own analysis on someone.
I don't know how smart Romanus is. All I know is scum (Who I say is Romanus and someone else) chose McGriddle as their NK. I have no reason why they would.

[Fenchurch]

First Vote Count of Day Two:

Romanus - 2 (WingDamage9001, Prosaurus)
Prosaurus - 2 (crazypianist1116, zMuffinMan)

Not Voting: 3 ([L], Misder, Romanus)

With seven alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Tuesday, 19th April at 9:01 am GMT.

[-L-]

Vote: Prosaurus

I am certain he is scum. Not only has he shown definite knowledge on people's alignment, but he has even used WIFOM and tried to postulate why the mafia killed McGriddle. Everyone knows it is a scum tell to try and guess why the mafia did something, and I see those postulations as trying to confuse the town and make them think harder. He's even played the newb card too many times. I'm certain he's one of them.

PBPA:
Post 11: Seems he's eager to start the game, to me. Unbiased: He's asking when the game starts.
Post 13: Null.
Post 35-37: Tells Romanus not to OMGUS because it got Prosaurus killed in his last game. Asks time zone question. Talks about avatar. Null...
Post 46-47:

@cjdrum
1. No. No I can't.
2. :C

@Misder No it wasn't.

I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what questions cjdrum asked of him, and what these replies mean. Clarification Prosaurus?
Post 62-65: Makes it a point to point out that "so far I've only been town." Sure, it could be true, but it says nothing for this game. Moves on to analyze me.

Analysing: [L]

Vote: WingDamage

, cos his wings had to have gotten damaged from violent activity.

Casual RVS stuff. But I thought you thought that they were called 'WingDamaged'?

Null.

I don't like bad people. Why do you like the evil one?

Don't see what you mean here.

Null.

@WingDamage: hehe, I see that now that I'm on a larger screen. I misread your name as "WingDamaged" on my iPod. So whose wings will you be damaging tonight? >__>

@Crazy:
1. I've been playing real life mafia for about 10 years with a solid group of friends, with intermittent change-ups. I've played a couple games here on mafiascum, but I was seriously intimidated.
2. I enjoy playing mafia because I love reading people and using my intuition. The latter oftentimes is not accepted among the males... but I am usually pretty accurate. Playing online affords me the chance to read over discussions many times, to get a better feel for people. I'm a horrible liar. I always get caught as mafia. As such, I much prefer to play as an innocent....usually not even as a power role.

~tldr: I like reading people.

You seem to like town... Always a good thing. If you're such a horrible liar though, I'll be watching for any lies, I'm sure the others will be too.

Granted, I was a little put off by this comment but I won't let it color my views. But it seems worded... funny.

I just set up my wiki!

[http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=L]

No comment

Null.

@cjdrum: hehehe, Usually on day 1 or day 2... I have a bad record. Once I made it to the end as Mafia by not saying anything and looking distracted the entire game... Everyone didn't expect that xD

I'd say my best strength is being a prosecutor.

Speaking of which, why are some of your questions to these players pointed, while others are fluffy (for lack of a better word)? 

...

*

@Misder: On two occasions, you have stated your surety of my innocence. I don't trust you; just being upfront. It seems as though you are trying to be my buddy, hoping that I will extend the courtesy of dropping suspicion of you. :/
Why exactly have you pegged me as an innocent?

@Prosaurus: I am in the Eastern time zone (GMT -5). My activity will be sporadic and not limited to certain times of the day. But I will at least post everyday.  Could you expound the game mechanics that make Mafia "fun" for you?

@cjdrum: Regarding "fresh new reason"...

Unvote: WingDamage

This vote was random.

Vote: Misder

Because I am following a hunch; I do not like how he can decide so early in the game that I am innocent.

@McGriddle: Could you share more about how this "winning" occurs?

@MuffinMan: After reading your friend's games, what is one thing you learned? What appeals to you to make this game interesting?

@Romanus: What game mechanics in Mafia appeal to your personality? What are the "itty bitty things" that spurred your vote? Please expand.

@WingDamage: Expound on what is "fun" about mafia by sharing your favorite game mechanic.

@All: Banzaii!! Feed meh

*

So why have you pinned them as scummy? Redirecting attention, or being honest?
As for your hunch, I see your reasoning (Mafia know who's town and who isn't), but it's still too early to pin these labels on anyone.

This question is asked as if pinning people as scummy is not what I am supposed to do. Redirecting attention? Is that what YOU'RE doing?

"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

True. But this may be scummy. Mafia don't wish people to be cleared, as it makes those people harder to lynch, meaning a night kill must be used on them, but then people will know that person's reads were honest.

I already spoke on this, but I will again for the sake of the PBPA. It is impossible for people to be cleared just coming out of the RVS stage. Later in the game, if someone couldn't be cleared, sure - the Mafia wouldn't like that. But that wasn't relevant. The argument involving Mafia is a straw man fallacy that was not relating to what I was actually talking about, and therefore disproved my statement by way of defeating the straw man. This is scummy in my opinion. Scummy.

@Misder: After reading your post, and evaluating MuffinMan's post - I can't get a read on him at all. Like, nada. What are you reading differently from me? What makes you think he is innocent?

As people in my last game said, Mafia tend to be the ones who can't get reads (Real or false).

This is very true. But he's building on his straw man. This statement is not applicable to all stages of the game.

I'll be moving on to analysing cjdrum soon enough.

Post 67: Agrees with Misder on his analysis. Throws in some feel-good by saying he's getting a town read on Misder.
Post 73-74: Gives opinion on how the IC should word things. Sure, I was put off by the IC's actions too, but re-reading this puts it in a different light. Are there hidden rules I don't know of? Having someone at L-2 on page 3 is not supposed to happen? Aren't we supposed to scumhunt, and vote, accordingly? Why so cautious about doing thigns a certain way? Would page 4 have been better? Not following that logic. Scummy.
Post 78: Analysis on Misder. Where is the promised analysis on cjdrum? A lot of WIFOM in the post, and framing me to be scum along with Misder.
Post 79: FoS on me and Misder, following previous post. Explains his hesitancy to vote. Town would vote, since that is their only tool. He's not using his tool. Scummy.
Post 81: Promises to analyze Romanus next. Points out his suspicion of Romanus.
Post 84: Romanus analysis. Finds Romanus scummy. The things he finds scummy about Romanus are the fact that Romanus votes and presents evidence that even he finds valid. Here I see him being super cautious yet again! Only scum want bandwagons? Only scum want speed lynches? It's as if he read a book on mafia and is attaching those rules out of context. Scummy because he points out evidence and then contradicts himself with "Although I agree with him" sentiments.
Post 85:

What can be more obvious than a page 4 or 5 or even 6 speed lynch? I don't care about shrouding in logic, the action of a speedlynch could not be covered by any amount of disinfectant.

I think L-2 is exactly where he should be right now. L-1 I'd be fine with, then we would get some seriously nervous posts.

I'm really not sure why people are so afraid of actually putting some real pressure on someone.

Speed lynches are BAD for town. With 7 town 2 mafia alive, a speed lynch will probably cause it to be 5 town 2 mafia.

Erm. Why wouldn't it be 6 town 1 mafia by day two?? Do you know something we don't?

Post 88: More pressure on Romanus. He's focused. Town attribute, imo.
Post 91: More pressure on Romanus. He's focused. Prophesies Romanus' lynch? Scummy.
Post 97/99: Mocks/teases Romanus for changing his tune. I suspect Romanus for this change as well. Town read.
Post 106:

The evidence grows. Romanus, you better start acting like town.

This really tastes bad when you eat it. "You better start acting like town?" All this says to me is that Pro is acting as well.
Although cjdrum does seem to be bandwagoning a lot. Maybe they're scum? Or possibly just a newbie not know who to vote for.[/quote]
]Post 107-108:

Although cjdrum does seem to be bandwagoning a lot. Maybe they're scum? Or possibly just a newbie not know who to vote for.

Where is the analysis on cjdrum? Unvotes to avoid hammer on Romanus, asks Romanus to claim. Romanus' subsequent replies are scummish. Townie read on Pro?
Post 111:

I don't care. He acts like scum, he gets lynched like scum.

It's as if he is taunting Romanus.
Post 113-115: In response to Crazy's analysis on Pro, he plays his newb card "I'm learning". He also denies saying that Romanus was not scumhunting, which was a lie. He accused him of it and voted him for it. Plays newb card again.
Post 116:

McGriddle should really post.

Deflection? Don't like being looked at? Scummy.
Post 120:

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

For me, I'd still say Romanus is most suspicious, for the whole speed lynch thing, then changing his mind. But he seems to be acting more like an IC now, so that's good, I will be rethinking my vote.

Asks for everyone else's opinion on who is scummy. Says he thinks Romanus is still the most suspicious, but praises him for being like an IC and says he's rethinking his vote on Romanus... when he's already unvoted. Wishy washy scummy.
Post 125: Explains his vote removal to crazy, saying he didn't want Romanus hammered.

Cjdrum then pretty much begs for his life, and says how he doesn't want to be killed. Prosaurus gets really scummy here in response.
Post 129-132:

Here's what I learnt: If you try to survive, you won't.
You'll be accused of being scum.

There will be other games for you to learn. Read my last game, see what happened to me.

I don't want it to happen to any other townie.

He says this as if he already KNOWS cjdrum is innocent. I don't want it to happen to any other townie?!

Post 145: Explanation of his different playstyle than when he was town in a previous game.

@Misder Yes I am playing differently. I'm trying to avoid what I did last time that got me lynched.

@Wing That was just dumb.

I still dunno about cjdrum. Seems more newb than anything, we'll have to let him defend himself.

@cjdrum Read my last game. It's happening to you now.

Again, likens cjdrum's position to his own past game when he was innocent. SCUMMY!

Post 150-151:

cjdrum, I am very much prepared to hammer you. But first, can you post a few things.
1) Why you think you shouldn't be hammered.
2) Your role. I know you said you didn't have a PR, I just want confirmation.
3) Your experience. Links to games.

What other roles for town are there, except for town and power role? The other two questions seem like RQS questions - aka fluff.

Post 153:

@L I really hate having an IC. They're meant to help newbies learn to play and answer questions, but if they play themselves it isn't too fair. But if they don't play, they'll be lynched and we wouldn't have anyone to answer our questions. And there's also a problem if they're scum.

WIFOM for days. So if the IC plays the game, they'll be lynched, regardless of whether they are scummy or townish? And if they are scummy they will kill all of us easily? Is that why you hate having IC's play?

And why, exactly, is it unfair for IC's to play in newbie games

?? Is it because you will get caught?

[urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 3#p2909933]Post 156-160[/url]: dictionary stuff.
[urlhttp://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p ... 1#p2909971]Post 161[/url]: Asks me what my thoughts are on cjdrum. Up until this point, he has not shown too much interest in cjdrum except to "console" him. I respond by quoting myself and ask why people [Prosaurus] don't read thoroughly.
Post 164-165:

cjdrum, I am very much prepared to hammer you. But first, can you post a few things.
1) Why you think you shouldn't be hammered.
2) Your role. I know you said you didn't have a PR, I just want confirmation.
3) Your experience. Links to games.

As you can see here, I am prepared to hammer him. Do you think it would be a good idea yet?

And no, you aren't. I just missed that post.

So he moves from uninterested to "about to hammer". Strange leap. Scummy!

Well, forgot it.

Answers my question, says he "missed that post", oops, "forgot it".
Post 172: Hammers cjdrum, and then consoles him again. Evil.

I've been vote flipping, bandwagonning and just not thinking in general. I haven't been pushing a quick lynch on purpose, but that's what's come across.

I was following the IC because they're meant to be kind of helpful with what is good Town behavior - even if they're scum, they've probably played as scum enough to know what good Town behavior is. So with Romanus flipping and stuff, I mindlessly followed...

So why I was scummy - mindlessly following vote flipping and bandwagonning on that.
Why I did it - Didn't think. Romanus was talking about putting pressure on Misder, so I was helping with pressure. He changed (for "pressure" again), and I thought I was helping with pressure again.

And, can you explain that last comment? Are you saying that I can't trust probability, or that two ICs in a row is unlikely?

TBH, this sounds very WIFOM-y to me.
I wanted to know your experience so I could tell if you really are newb or not. While I would vote for Romanus, having an IC can be useful even if they are scum. We'll see how it turns out on Day 2.
VOTE: cjdrum
Sorry, just remember. If you are town, you can still win even if you die. And there will be other games.

Post 194-195:

Ugh. So cjdrum is town?
I really do hate getting newb tells and scum tells mixed up. cjdrum, since you're actually confirmed town, it means you can say anything you want and we'll believe it. Just keep in mind, what you say now can affect the whole game.

Also @Misder, Just put in a link to the post you're quoting, or at least say

Post 45324432

. That isn't a real post by the way.

It hasn't been confirmed yet??

It's a heck of alot of pressure doing a hammer vote. After I saw the post that looked so WIFOMy I figured a hammer would have a 50% chance to be right. And cjdrum saying we should hammer him really put me off.

Post 205:

Hmmmm. Misder, you seem a bit too trusting of most people, almost as if you know we're town. I'm beginning to see what L saw, but I must admit you are in fact scumhunting and doing your best. You shouldn't think of anyone as town till they're dead. You should really be thinking how scummy they are, and voting for the scummiest.

What you're seeing and what I saw are two completely different things, at two different stages of the game. My observation was dependent on it being early in the game. Your seeing of the similar matter is happening after the first lynch. Two completely different things. I view this statement as him leading his suspicions in Misder's way, when he never even thought of Misder Day 1.
Post 216:

@ crazy

They should kill the IC because the IC is the one who helps newbs most, and this is a Newbie Game.

@Muffin IC answers questions, scum or not.
cjdrum claimed town after twilight. No point lying then is there? They might have had their own analysis on someone.
I don't know how smart Romanus is. All I know is scum (Who I say is Romanus and someone else) chose McGriddle as their NK. I have no reason why they would.

WIFOM statement about who the mafia should kill. Claims are /= to a mod's declaration.

Prosaurus should have a wine named after him, he does it so often.

[crazypianist1116]

So that's L-1. Prosaurus, if you want to claim now you can but waiting till someone threatens to vote is generally the suggested time to claim.

Misder and Romanus, thoughts?

[zMuffinMan]

@Prosaurus,

The problem with your statements about the IC is that they're contradictory. You said the IC was useful to keep around, but you want to lynch him. You said the wolves aren't too bright, but you think he is a wolf, even though you're trying to learn how to play from him. And in this particular game, the IC is not the one who is helping newbs the most... I don't know what game you've been reading.

On cjdrum, I know that he claimed during twilight, but you were talking about him being "confirmed" town. It struck me as odd that you were using the word confirmed when it really wasn't confirmed. And any information that he gave us could not be given any credence. For example, if he told us that he thought you're mafia, would that have been justification to lynch you? It looks like the purpose of that post was to come off as pro-town, but the content is something I'd expect from mafia.

Romanus was my top suspect yesterday, but you have been setting off way too many alarms since the hammer.

Could you restate your reasons for hammering cjdrum and also restate your reasons vote voting Romanus today?

[zMuffinMan]

EBWOP: "reasons for voting Romanus"

Just woke up.

Also interested in seeing what Misder and Romanus have to say.

[Prosaurus]

@Muffin I did it because they said to, which seems very scummy, and on top of that all the previous evidence against him. I'm voting for Romanus by going off my evidence on Day 1, like I said.

[-L-]

@Prosaurus: can you please answer the questions I asked?

[-L-]

@WingDamage, @Romanus, @Misder - please reconsider (@Wing) and consider Prosaurus. He has to be scum!