Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[cjdrum]

I must say that was kind of weird-looking. I mean, you convince me to vote Misder, then... Jump off so you're not blamed?

I don't like that. I don't have much experience with that sort of thing, but it seems... off.

Unvote
Vote: Romanus

[cjdrum]

EBWOP: That was directed at Romanus, not to Prosaurus

[Romanus]

Just before you encouraged us to join the bandwagon and speed lynch. Now you're doing the opposite, after I pointed it out.

You weren't scum hunting. You were encouraging speed lynches before we get any evidence.

A speed lynch would have been some pretty damning evidence. But the possibility, in a Newbie game, of a player playing the "I'm a noob, I made a mistake" card, made me reconsider L-1.

Anyway, I think I may have found some real scum

Wait, I thought we were pressuring Misder?
Um, so, do I vote now, or let somebody else do that :/

I'll go with it.

Unvote: McGriddle
Vote: Misder

And don't hammer 'til we get some stuff from him!

Vote: cjdrum

[cjdrum]

Can you explain why that post is incriminating, please?

[Romanus]

Yes, I can. No, I won't.

[WingDamage9001]

Yes, I can. No, I won't.

And why not? Withholding information is scummy. You seem to have no town motivations for anything you do.

[Prosaurus]

The evidence grows. Romanus, you better start acting like town.

[Prosaurus]

Although cjdrum does seem to be bandwagoning a lot. Maybe they're scum? Or possibly just a newbie not know who to vote for.

[Prosaurus]

Unvote

To avoid a hammer before Romanus claims. Romanus, please claim ASAP.

[Fenchurch]

Fifth Vote Count of Day One:

Romanus - 3 (zMuffinMan, WingDamage9001, cjdrum)

Misder - 2 (crazypianist1116, [L])
cjdrum - 2 (McGriddle, Romanus)

Not Voting: 2 (Misder, Prosaurus)

With nine alive, it will take five votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Wednesday, 13th April at 8:17 am GMT.

[cjdrum]

Lost. Why is the IC being difficult? Is difficulty all of a sudden a good playstyle? :/

Lost.

[Prosaurus]

I don't care. He acts like scum, he gets lynched like scum.

[crazypianist1116]

This

Wait, I thought we were pressuring Misder?
Um, so, do I vote now, or let somebody else do that :/

I'll go with it.

Unvote: McGriddle
Vote: Misder

And don't hammer 'til we get some stuff from him!

followed by this

I must say that was kind of weird-looking. I mean, you convince me to vote Misder, then... Jump off so you're not blamed?

I don't like that. I don't have much experience with that sort of thing, but it seems... off.

Unvote
Vote: Romanus

equals this:

FoS: cjdrum

It's called bandwagonning. Blatent bandwagonning.

I would vote but this:

Lost. Why is the IC being difficult? Is difficulty all of a sudden a good playstyle? :/

Lost.

Makes me think it's more of a newb tell.

Now for a case on prosaurus.
His two analyses on Misder and Romanus were just way off.

Analysis on: Misder

Town reads in green

Scum reads in red

Neutral in black

Unvote [L]

Fair enough. The thing here is, if he keeps his vote, people could say he has no valid reason to vote. Watch what happens if he unvotes.

That's what RVS is. You could have criticized anyone else on the first page for randomly voting. They all had no reason to vote, but you don't unvote in RVS because it gets you to interesting situations where people start slipping up.

@cjdrum
1) not voting yet, waiting for more activity right now
2) as of right now, zMuffinMan. I feel he is most protown right now alongside with [L], but since I already had some sort of relationship with [L] in the RVS stage, zMuffinMan would be the ideal choice.

And

Cause I have time, can everyone link one game (from this site or another) that they have played in? It's ok if you don't have a game to link, cause I don't. The forum I played in needed permission to get in...

So far, I only got one game, and that was from Prosaurus, and I dont know if that was accidental or not.

Odd choice of scumbuddy. Choosing who you think is most town?

Um, scum would obviously want the most pro-town players on their team, ne?

@[L] It's the same way you are viewing me. I see you as more protown than others (no where do I mention that I'm positive that you are innocent like you state) the same way you view me as more scummy than others. Simple as that. In my book of notes, you and muffin are the only ones that don't have some sort of slight scum read, esp. since you guys questioned the same things I have in my notes, therefore less scummy. I'll agree that it is very early though, which is why I'm holding back all of my thoughts until later when I actually get more evidence on people.

If you and [L] were scum, this would put us off it. We'd say only one of you was scum.

This is very WIFOM-y.

@[L] Admittedly, he only has two posts and his second one I got a null read also. However, I like his first post only because of his attack on Romanus. These are my notes for him:
31

Hi

1. How much experience playing mafia do you have?
2. Why do you enjoy playing mafia?

1. Pretty much none. A friend told me about this game and said it'd be the kind of thing I'd like. He linked me here and I've read a few games he's played in, if that counts for experience at all...
2. Well, it looks like I'd find it enjoyable.

Vote: Romanus

I don't see why you needed to tell us that your vote wasn't serious.

A legit vote cause I was thinking the same thing/or should have been even more, slight town read

@Romanus

You're giving us zero credit if you really think we need to be spoon-fed that badly. Being new doesn't mean we're stupid.

On the topic of making things clear, could you explain the irony in your reasoning for voting me? Jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so my vote stands.

Agree with Muffin on second paragraph, read is null on this post, but makes more sense if it was town; if Romanus maf, Muffin town imo
38

Australian EST (+10 GMT, +1 for DST), it's 2:22pm now.

I get on when I can, time varies a lot because my current sleeping pattern. I'll probably be posting somewhere between midday and midnight my time most days.

null read

Again, I'm saying that I didn't get a scummy read on him. Everyone else I get something I don't really like.

Like attacking the IC, do you?

Like not pointing out at all what's scummy or why the IC shouldn't be attacked, do you?

@crazy, its the way she plays and how she says things that I like. Sure, maybe first 2 posts aren't ever going to be definite, but that's why I keep note of things that happen after. And with more posts from her, I still like her play except for maybe a small part, but I will still stand that she has pretty much played town so far.
edit before posting: so it seems like pro is on the opposite side of me on [L] which is fine. I disagree with the analysis on the second to last post- I actually view this as town because it pretty much is true. However, I do agree with analysis on the last post, as it did seem a bit scummy to me also, but I view her posts as overall townplay right now.

@zMuffinMan Your vote on Romanus- is it more due to his first post or his OMGUS vote?

Making his own analysis on [L]. Good.

Still trying to convince us [L] is town. Scumbuddies,

Or being honest?

Trying to put words into people's mouths much? Regarding the quote in question:

"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

True. But this may be scummy. Mafia don't wish people to be cleared, as it makes those people harder to lynch, meaning a night kill must be used on them, but then people will know that person's reads were honest.

[L] was contradicting cjdrum, who was calling [L] "cleared" town. [L] replied by saying that clearing anyone is not possible. Thinking anyone is "cleared" can lead to tunneling as well as ignoring the "cleared" person. Which can be really bad if the "cleared" person is scum. [L]'s quote was town.

@zMuffinMan
1) In this type of setup, yes. Well, this is my first time playing this setup so uhh... read 2 for more I guess.
2) In other forums where games are much bigger and fast-pased (like 30 ppl and days are 48 hours), it usually started out with just a random lynch, however, these random lynches first start out from voting to lynch inactives, but of course this will lead to discussion, and then, that's where moving the game forward is very easy. I'll also add that I usually don't even participate in the voting to lynch the inactives. In this type of setup, RVS is kind of the same function as what I'm used to; it'll eventually lead to discussion. However, even without RVS, discussion about anything will eventually lead to something (kind of like RQS I guess, but I'm talking about anything here). Of course, deadline is a great incentive to vote, so even if at the end, no one is "scummy", then there will still be an attempted lynch that will move the game forward.
Hope my answers aren't too confusing. I feel like I just blabbled.

True, inactives aren't much of a threat to scum, are they?

But you are talking about in other games, so that doesn't really count.

There's a reason there's a phrase called Lynch all Lurkers. Not that I subscribe to it, but active lurking can be very scummy. You still have the power to vote and do night actions, but you aren't contributing to discussion at all. Lurking or flaking on the other hand is more of a null tell.

@zMuff - I told you it wasn't serious because this is a newbie game, and most especially early on, I feel it is my job as IC to make sure I'm being very clear about what is going on. But jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so this one is serious:

Unvote

Vote: zMuffinMan

1) I've been playing off and on for 5 years or so. Started with meat world playing and then found this site. I haven't been around here in a while, but I plan on being a fixture for a while now.
2) Oddly enough, one of the reasons I play is because I teach writing in college and MS contains some of the best essays on the internet. But also, I just love games, from tabletop minis to board, card, Wow. Yeah, I'll play just about any game.

Too early to make serious votes. He was voting for the person he had most evidence for, no matter how little that was, as this was RVS.

Ha funny. You criticize Romanus for making a serious vote yet it's a response to muffin's serious vote. Romanus saw Muffin's vote as bad. I think that's quite obvious.

To answer the questions that have been directed at me:

I believe it is my role to ease players into playing this game that I believe is valuable and fun. I love writing, and it is a great way to exercise my brain and stretch my writing skills. I made a point to post early. I do not want to assume the level of knowledge of any player. And also, considering the mountain of wiki pages dedicated to strategies and scumtells, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has posited that confirmation order could be a scumtell. I hope to accomplish this by explaining different things that are going on if, and when they need to be explained. And also, to be a good player. I will play to win. I will also keep things in a friendly tone. I want to encourage people to play.

The itty bitty thing that I saw zMuff jump on, was the very thing I described above. He voted me for trying to fulfill my role as IC. I'm not sure why, even if done poorly, this is a good reason to vote someone.

Now, zMuff may retort, "But my vote was just as unserious as your vote!" To which I would reply, "But I think it was made to look innocent, so that you could push a wagon for an innocent reason."

But you also haven't been pushing, just waiting.

Scum hunting,

But with a lack of evidence.

Evidence in bold. Regardless, why the second sentence isn't red, I don't know as lack of evidence is a scum tell.

As IC: I did not just use the abbreviation RVS. I used the words Random Vote Stage, which I think is pretty self explanatory. Are you really accusing me of thinking people are smart and stupid at the same time? Also, I wanted to post early to demonstrate how things kinda work. I don't know how things work on other boards. I also know that the opening of the game is the stage that is the hardest to get through.

As Player: I absolutely think that my reason for voting you could be seen as an innocent reason for pushing a wagon. And yes, there is a reason to wait and not push. Right now is not a very good time to dig your heels in.

The most scummy person I see now is Misder. His posts lack genuine scumhunting.

Unvote
Vote: Misder

Grabbing an instrument and jumping on the wagon.

With evidence though.

Romanus, if you have yet to, read this article. You can't criticize him for "jumping on the wagon" if you think his reasons are valid.

To be honest, I think crazy explained it much better than you did.

As IC: I have no problem admitting that I did it poorly. I'd also love suggestions as to how to do the "ease in" in a better fashion.

An IC asking how to be an IC?

If you're the one to "ease them into the game" they'll trust you to be town...

Unless you help them scumhunt, while doing it yourself

If it hasn't been pointed out already:

Don't trust authority because they are authority.

Your point is valid Prosaurus except Romanus has been scumhunting.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Only scum want bandwagons.

>_> Bandwagons can be useful. The reactions that someone gives from being under pressure can often reveal them to be scum or town. Also, jumping on a bandwagon for shitty reasons (e.g. cjdrum) is very scummy.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Townies best and only weapon is their vote. I treat my vote as a weapon. I hate leaving my vote in an innocuous place. Takes away it's teeth and becomes less of a weapon or no weapon at all.

And I support the Misder wagon up until the point I no longer believe he is likely scum.

Only scum want speedlynches.

Is this not obvious?

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Conclusion:

Very scummy.

Unvote

VOTE: Prosaurus

[Prosaurus]

I'm going by what I learnt in my previous game. They bandwagoned me, and what happened? They killed the doctor.
I never said he wasn't scum hunting, I said that's what he should be doing.
Like I've said before, I'm trying to think differently. And those last two posts of Romanus' really made me think of him as scummy. Then he changed and started being against bandwagons and speed lynches. Seems suspicious to me.

[Prosaurus]

I would like you to take into account that I've only had one other game, and I was bandwagon-lynched on Day 1. Therefore, I am against bandwagons.

[Prosaurus]

This

Wait, I thought we were pressuring Misder?
Um, so, do I vote now, or let somebody else do that :/

I'll go with it.

Unvote: McGriddle
Vote: Misder

And don't hammer 'til we get some stuff from him!

followed by this

I must say that was kind of weird-looking. I mean, you convince me to vote Misder, then... Jump off so you're not blamed?

I don't like that. I don't have much experience with that sort of thing, but it seems... off.

Unvote
Vote: Romanus

equals this:

FoS: cjdrum

It's called bandwagonning. Blatent bandwagonning.

I would vote but this:

Lost. Why is the IC being difficult? Is difficulty all of a sudden a good playstyle? :/

Lost.

Makes me think it's more of a newb tell.

That's the problem with newbie games. It can be hard to tell.

Now for a case on prosaurus.
His two analyses on Misder and Romanus were just way off.

I'm learning, I'm learning. Doing my best.

Analysis on: Misder

Town reads in green

Scum reads in red

Neutral in black

Unvote [L]

Fair enough. The thing here is, if he keeps his vote, people could say he has no valid reason to vote. Watch what happens if he unvotes.

That's what RVS is. You could have criticized anyone else on the first page for randomly voting. They all had no reason to vote, but you don't unvote in RVS because it gets you to interesting situations where people start slipping up.

@cjdrum
1) not voting yet, waiting for more activity right now
2) as of right now, zMuffinMan. I feel he is most protown right now alongside with [L], but since I already had some sort of relationship with [L] in the RVS stage, zMuffinMan would be the ideal choice.

And

Cause I have time, can everyone link one game (from this site or another) that they have played in? It's ok if you don't have a game to link, cause I don't. The forum I played in needed permission to get in...

So far, I only got one game, and that was from Prosaurus, and I dont know if that was accidental or not.

Odd choice of scumbuddy. Choosing who you think is most town?

Um, scum would obviously want the most pro-town players on their team, ne?

I suppose. But if they were scum, they might not act so protown. That was fluff anyway.

@[L] It's the same way you are viewing me. I see you as more protown than others (no where do I mention that I'm positive that you are innocent like you state) the same way you view me as more scummy than others. Simple as that. In my book of notes, you and muffin are the only ones that don't have some sort of slight scum read, esp. since you guys questioned the same things I have in my notes, therefore less scummy. I'll agree that it is very early though, which is why I'm holding back all of my thoughts until later when I actually get more evidence on people.

If you and [L] were scum, this would put us off it. We'd say only one of you was scum.

This is very WIFOM-y.

Trying to think differently again. Maybe I shouldn't?

@[L] Admittedly, he only has two posts and his second one I got a null read also. However, I like his first post only because of his attack on Romanus. These are my notes for him:
31

Hi

1. How much experience playing mafia do you have?
2. Why do you enjoy playing mafia?

1. Pretty much none. A friend told me about this game and said it'd be the kind of thing I'd like. He linked me here and I've read a few games he's played in, if that counts for experience at all...
2. Well, it looks like I'd find it enjoyable.

Vote: Romanus

I don't see why you needed to tell us that your vote wasn't serious.

A legit vote cause I was thinking the same thing/or should have been even more, slight town read

@Romanus

You're giving us zero credit if you really think we need to be spoon-fed that badly. Being new doesn't mean we're stupid.

On the topic of making things clear, could you explain the irony in your reasoning for voting me? Jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so my vote stands.

Agree with Muffin on second paragraph, read is null on this post, but makes more sense if it was town; if Romanus maf, Muffin town imo
38

Australian EST (+10 GMT, +1 for DST), it's 2:22pm now.

I get on when I can, time varies a lot because my current sleeping pattern. I'll probably be posting somewhere between midday and midnight my time most days.

null read

Again, I'm saying that I didn't get a scummy read on him. Everyone else I get something I don't really like.

Like attacking the IC, do you?

Like not pointing out at all what's scummy or why the IC shouldn't be attacked, do you?

I was thinking, wouldn't scum like to get rid of the IC? Sometimes I think having an IC can ruin newbie games...

@crazy, its the way she plays and how she says things that I like. Sure, maybe first 2 posts aren't ever going to be definite, but that's why I keep note of things that happen after. And with more posts from her, I still like her play except for maybe a small part, but I will still stand that she has pretty much played town so far.
edit before posting: so it seems like pro is on the opposite side of me on [L] which is fine. I disagree with the analysis on the second to last post- I actually view this as town because it pretty much is true. However, I do agree with analysis on the last post, as it did seem a bit scummy to me also, but I view her posts as overall townplay right now.

@zMuffinMan Your vote on Romanus- is it more due to his first post or his OMGUS vote?

Making his own analysis on [L]. Good.

Still trying to convince us [L] is town. Scumbuddies,

Or being honest?

Trying to put words into people's mouths much? Regarding the quote in question:

What do ya mean? It's WIFOMy.

"clearing" anyone this early in the game is not possible.

True. But this may be scummy. Mafia don't wish people to be cleared, as it makes those people harder to lynch, meaning a night kill must be used on them, but then people will know that person's reads were honest.

[L] was contradicting cjdrum, who was calling [L] "cleared" town. [L] replied by saying that clearing anyone is not possible. Thinking anyone is "cleared" can lead to tunneling as well as ignoring the "cleared" person. Which can be really bad if the "cleared" person is scum. [L]'s quote was town.

Again, thinking differently.

@zMuffinMan
1) In this type of setup, yes. Well, this is my first time playing this setup so uhh... read 2 for more I guess.
2) In other forums where games are much bigger and fast-pased (like 30 ppl and days are 48 hours), it usually started out with just a random lynch, however, these random lynches first start out from voting to lynch inactives, but of course this will lead to discussion, and then, that's where moving the game forward is very easy. I'll also add that I usually don't even participate in the voting to lynch the inactives. In this type of setup, RVS is kind of the same function as what I'm used to; it'll eventually lead to discussion. However, even without RVS, discussion about anything will eventually lead to something (kind of like RQS I guess, but I'm talking about anything here). Of course, deadline is a great incentive to vote, so even if at the end, no one is "scummy", then there will still be an attempted lynch that will move the game forward.
Hope my answers aren't too confusing. I feel like I just blabbled.

True, inactives aren't much of a threat to scum, are they?

But you are talking about in other games, so that doesn't really count.

There's a reason there's a phrase called Lynch all Lurkers. Not that I subscribe to it, but active lurking can be very scummy. You still have the power to vote and do night actions, but you aren't contributing to discussion at all. Lurking or flaking on the other hand is more of a null tell.

Eh. Still learning.

@zMuff - I told you it wasn't serious because this is a newbie game, and most especially early on, I feel it is my job as IC to make sure I'm being very clear about what is going on. But jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so this one is serious:

Unvote

Vote: zMuffinMan

1) I've been playing off and on for 5 years or so. Started with meat world playing and then found this site. I haven't been around here in a while, but I plan on being a fixture for a while now.
2) Oddly enough, one of the reasons I play is because I teach writing in college and MS contains some of the best essays on the internet. But also, I just love games, from tabletop minis to board, card, Wow. Yeah, I'll play just about any game.

Too early to make serious votes. He was voting for the person he had most evidence for, no matter how little that was, as this was RVS.

Ha funny. You criticize Romanus for making a serious vote yet it's a response to muffin's serious vote. Romanus saw Muffin's vote as bad. I think that's quite obvious.

In my last game, people were doing serious votes with very little evidence. I supposed that's what people were doing here.

To answer the questions that have been directed at me:

I believe it is my role to ease players into playing this game that I believe is valuable and fun. I love writing, and it is a great way to exercise my brain and stretch my writing skills. I made a point to post early. I do not want to assume the level of knowledge of any player. And also, considering the mountain of wiki pages dedicated to strategies and scumtells, I wouldn't be surprised if someone has posited that confirmation order could be a scumtell. I hope to accomplish this by explaining different things that are going on if, and when they need to be explained. And also, to be a good player. I will play to win. I will also keep things in a friendly tone. I want to encourage people to play.

The itty bitty thing that I saw zMuff jump on, was the very thing I described above. He voted me for trying to fulfill my role as IC. I'm not sure why, even if done poorly, this is a good reason to vote someone.

Now, zMuff may retort, "But my vote was just as unserious as your vote!" To which I would reply, "But I think it was made to look innocent, so that you could push a wagon for an innocent reason."

But you also haven't been pushing, just waiting.

Scum hunting,

But with a lack of evidence.

Evidence in bold. Regardless, why the second sentence isn't red, I don't know as lack of evidence is a scum tell.

I didn't think it would be that early on.

As IC: I did not just use the abbreviation RVS. I used the words Random Vote Stage, which I think is pretty self explanatory. Are you really accusing me of thinking people are smart and stupid at the same time? Also, I wanted to post early to demonstrate how things kinda work. I don't know how things work on other boards. I also know that the opening of the game is the stage that is the hardest to get through.

As Player: I absolutely think that my reason for voting you could be seen as an innocent reason for pushing a wagon. And yes, there is a reason to wait and not push. Right now is not a very good time to dig your heels in.

The most scummy person I see now is Misder. His posts lack genuine scumhunting.

Unvote
Vote: Misder

Grabbing an instrument and jumping on the wagon.

With evidence though.

Romanus, if you have yet to, read this article. You can't criticize him for "jumping on the wagon" if you think his reasons are valid.

I know. I try to think of at least one town read and one scum read per quote.

To be honest, I think crazy explained it much better than you did.

As IC: I have no problem admitting that I did it poorly. I'd also love suggestions as to how to do the "ease in" in a better fashion.

An IC asking how to be an IC?

If you're the one to "ease them into the game" they'll trust you to be town...

Unless you help them scumhunt, while doing it yourself

If it hasn't been pointed out already:

Don't trust authority because they are authority.

Your point is valid Prosaurus except Romanus has been scumhunting.

Indeed he has.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Only scum want bandwagons.

>_> Bandwagons can be useful. The reactions that someone gives from being under pressure can often reveal them to be scum or town. Also, jumping on a bandwagon for shitty reasons (e.g. cjdrum) is very scummy.

Learning. I don't like bandwagons though.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Townies best and only weapon is their vote. I treat my vote as a weapon. I hate leaving my vote in an innocuous place. Takes away it's teeth and becomes less of a weapon or no weapon at all.

And I support the Misder wagon up until the point I no longer believe he is likely scum.

Only scum want speedlynches.

Is this not obvious?

Pointing it out.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Conclusion:

Very scummy.

Unvote

VOTE: Prosaurus

It seems I still have alot to learn. However, my vote stays. I still think Romanus is suspicious.

[Prosaurus]

McGriddle should really post.

[Romanus]

I pointed out the post that I think is scummy. If you don't find it scummy, fine. But I refuse to think for people.

"Please, please, give me reasons that I can parrot." I don't think so. Think for yourself. No townie should want to be spoonfed.

And there is no way I am claiming right now. Someone is trying to take control of this game, and it ain't me.

[McGriddle]

I must say that was kind of weird-looking. I mean, you convince me to vote Misder, then... Jump off so you're not blamed?

I don't like that. I don't have much experience with that sort of thing, but it seems... off.

Unvote
Vote: Romanus

I like where my vote is. I want to change my vote to a real vote. You rode the bandwagon on romanus or w/e really hard and put him at L-1, then when momentum switched off of him for a second you put someone else at L-1. You are really pushing for a quick lynch and therefore my vote will stay on you for now. I lost my interenet for 1 day and all of this goes on, I am pretty lost honestly, but from what I can tell, and from previous experiences in this situation I am fairly confident that cjdrum is scum, and if he isn't he is absent minded town.

[Romanus]

As IC: I think the term bandwagon, or wagon is used rather loosely on this site. As I understand it, a wagon can refer to any person with any votes on them. At least, I have heard it referred to as such. This is the official entry from the wiki:

Several Votes on the same player to try to Lynch them or force them to roleclaim; especially used if the votes come in quick succession and without independent reasons.

Bandwagons can be especially frustrating for players, because they can seem to build a momentum of their own, often independent of the validity of the original reasoning that started it. Some players (Pro-Town or Scum) will even give up, rather than face the uphill battle of recovering against such an onslaught.

Bandwagoning is usually used on Day 1 to quickly gather information on players' roles and voting patterns. It is especially dangerous during Lynch-or-Lose situations (where one misvote will make the town lose) and should be avoided at that point.

I wanted to preemptively address this to avoid derailing the game into a discussion on what a wagon is. Prosaurus is using the precise definition of the word, but others will use it with a more liberal definition.

[Prosaurus]

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

For me, I'd still say Romanus is most suspicious, for the whole speed lynch thing, then changing his mind. But he seems to be acting more like an IC now, so that's good, I will be rethinking my vote.

[cjdrum]

Most Suspicious: Romanus. For the difficulty in general, but mostly the "Yes, I can. No, I won't." (post 104)

That... I don't even know.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm just getting some fluff out of the way before I properly read the last two pages. It seems the action picked up while I wasn't around.

@Romanus

As IC: I did not just use the abbreviation RVS. I used the words Random Vote Stage, which I think is pretty self explanatory. Are you really accusing me of thinking people are smart and stupid at the same time? Also, I wanted to post early to demonstrate how things kinda work. I don't know how things work on other boards. I also know that the opening of the game is the stage that is the hardest to get through.

I actually didn't even realise you were the IC until you told me after I voted you. It didn't look like something an IC would post, and when you explained it away as doing it because you were IC, it confused me even more.

As IC: I have no problem admitting that I did it poorly. I'd also love suggestions as to how to do the "ease in" in a better fashion.

Honestly, I was expecting some big post explaining that you were the IC and what your role is in this game; it's what I've seen from reading other games. That's partially why I didn't even realise you were the IC.

e.g. newbie 1083: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2895552
newbie 1081: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2894822
newbie 1080: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2886374


@Wingdamage9001

I didn't. And I'm not sure what irony you mean.

Sure.

I mean is it suspicious enough to follow up on. Do you think that it was scummy enough to point out? You said that jumping on people for something tiny was scummy, so for you not to be scummy, you must not think it was tiny. You contradict yourself, and I don't like it.

I was talking about the irony of jumping on someone early for something small supposedly being a scum-tell. I'm not actually sure if he really uses it as scum-tell, I was just quoting him because I found it appropriate that it appeared he was doing what he thought was a scum-tell. It was sarcasm, maybe you didn't pick it up.

How much do you support this wagon? L-2 is a dangerous position. Are you prepared to see a speedlynch like this?

This, followed by,

Unvote, Vote Romanus
Pressure is good?

Do I point out the irony here? You're doing what you didn't like me doing.

You're contradicting yourself, but you don't like contradicting?



Re-reading the last couple pages after I get something to eat.

[crazypianist1116]

@cjdrum:
3.5 people call you scummy and all you have to say is "I don't get why this one person is voting me?" You are getting scummier by the post. Prosaurus' posts look more newb than scum to me so:

Unvote

VOTE: cjdrum

@Prosaurus:
I read your game and you were lynched basically for not scumhunting. Now you are scumhunting. That does not excuse you from the fact that I didn't like your scumhunting. Bad evidence => Trying to mislynch => Scum.

Further, you must understand Romanus' reason for unvoting. Specifically:

A speed lynch would have been some pretty damning evidence. But the possibility, in a Newbie game, of a player playing the "I'm a noob, I made a mistake" card, made me reconsider L-1.

This is a valid point. Not that there aren't better ways of going about this. One could for example inform the town in bold caps that we're at l-1 and another vote will cause a lynch. That would generally be enough warning to prevent a newb from doing such a thing.

Re: Speed lynches: I was not agreeing that only scum want a speed lynch. Romanus was not saying he wanted a speed lynch. I was referring to this quote:

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

You disconnected the "Is this not obvious?" part from that quote.

I know. I try to think of at least one town read and one scum read per quote.

I just don't like this in general. In can lead to major fence sitting and make you very unsure of yourself. Trying to think of things that aren't there just seems like a bad idea.

Pressure is a wonderful thing. The fact that we can up the pressure this fast, I believe, is a good thing. I believe to truly move from RVS to real substantive votes, a real wagon has to be formed, with real consequences.

Only scum want bandwagons.

>_> Bandwagons can be useful. The reactions that someone gives from being under pressure can often reveal them to be scum or town. Also, jumping on a bandwagon for shitty reasons (e.g. cjdrum) is very scummy.

Learning. I don't like bandwagons though.

That's great. Then point out who on the bandwagon you think is in the wrong and why. Pressure, what Romanus was talking about on the other hand, is different. I'll admit I should have said this the first time around, but as Romanus pointed out, I was taking the more liberal definition of bandwagon.

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

Addendum: If you aren't voting for who you think is the most suspicious, why not?

[WingDamage9001]

I didn't. And I'm not sure what irony you mean.

Sure.

I mean is it suspicious enough to follow up on. Do you think that it was scummy enough to point out? You said that jumping on people for something tiny was scummy, so for you not to be scummy, you must not think it was tiny. You contradict yourself, and I don't like it.

I was talking about the irony of jumping on someone early for something small supposedly being a scum-tell. I'm not actually sure if he really uses it as scum-tell, I was just quoting him because I found it appropriate that it appeared he was doing what he thought was a scum-tell. It was sarcasm, maybe you didn't pick it up.

How much do you support this wagon? L-2 is a dangerous position. Are you prepared to see a speedlynch like this?

This, followed by,

Unvote, Vote Romanus
Pressure is good?

Do I point out the irony here? You're doing what you didn't like me doing.

You're contradicting yourself, but you don't like contradicting?

I didn't pick up on the sarcasm, sorry. Intonation is lost on the interwebs. I never said I didn't like you voting. I asked if you were ready to lynch someone. I am ready to lynch someone. They're two different things.