1119: The Might of Mordor: Game Over

[Mariyta]

MasterSpy, Glorfindel (Roleblocker for The Heroes of Light), Survived!

Told ya so.

[Sevei]

Prev. Edit. The LOSS isn't the reason for the vitriol. The way the loss came about, and the amount of personal abuse inflicted--that's the reason for the vitriol.
***
Re: Mina's post:
The amount of personal abuse that was heaped on players in this game has a lot to do with post-game rage. Fate's behavior helped drive two people out of the game early on, and he continuously antagonized anyone who disagreed with him at any point. He also basically did things like tell me to "talk sweeter" to him next time if I didn't want to be lynched, which in any other context would be sexual harassment, and it's quite insulting, especially considering that (and this conclusion is based on words spoken in the game) you advanced as far as you did in the game because of the star-crossed lovers thing. Your hydra-partner was also abusive to a lot of people, and even though he has apologized, his words caused a lot of consternation. The end doesn't always justify the means, and it is possible to play mafia by not being verbally abusive, and when you sow abuse, you reap it. When you call people stupid for disagreeing with you and then you end up being wrong (and causing everyone else to lose), you eat those words. If either Fate or Magna had been less abusive during the game itself, they might not be getting such a negative backlash now. (And MoI is kind of rubbing things in now, and that's really not nice, either.) Begrudging everyone their righteous indignation now isn't very fair.

Also @Mina:
"someone like Sevei will post crap all day, and when she shows up, ignore the cases on every other player in the game and coincidentally latches on to both killers."

Not sure what you mean by "someone like Sevei," but...

I may not post a lot, especially early on (and I had some issues preventing access for a time, anyway), but when I did get caught up in the thread, a lot had happened. I didn't

ignore

the cases on anyone else; I felt they were empty and against likely Town so I didn't address them. (And not posting a lot

doesn't

affect reading comprehension.)

Once I sat down and parsed through the case on Plum and tried to make sense of it, it was easy to see she was scum. Esurio was trying to kick up clouds of confusion, and some other clouds of confusion from other townies were floating around, and Edge definitely helped obfuscate matters a bit with their refusal to actually explain half of their reads, but I had a more objective view as a latecomer who was also Town. As for you/MoI, the way you kept Plum at the top of your list when discussing lynches while doing your best to redirect attention to other players was fishy right away. (There are two other tells I think I have discovered about MoI as scum; one was mentioned somewhere in the QTs, but I'll keep the other card close to the vest for future games.) I didn't just

latch on

to either of you

coincidentally

.

****

Magna, you managed the win despite three of us insisting you were scum with all we had, but we would have hammered you on D4 if Fate had not just shut down and not listened to anyone else like he did (and had he not refused to go back and look at the previous days' events) and had AGM not decided to just forego anything aside following Fate. I will give you props for winning over Fate, though. That was an essential factor in your win, and since he is quite mercurial in temperament, it IS a genuine accomplishment, and obviously one of the best things you could have done to secure your win. However, there is no need to bash other players as mistakes were made, by everyone, including you; the difference is that you also

did

do the two most important things you needed to do to win: win Fate, and figure out that the imbued powers could be blocked and then time the subsequent blocks and kills accordingly (but please remember you were also working with a lot more information at that point then town was, and that town couldn't have found out that information via gameplay alone).

I

did

get too much into mechanics (and the Eye of Sauron on Gandalf thing was a big part of that, which it wouldn't have been had we not had a player named Gandalf in a game where Gandalf was possible scum), but I work out ideas by talking them out, and I jumped the gun on the reveal because of that. Unfortunately our discussion only confirmed to me that you were scum, but made me question my scum read on SpyreX. Sigh, lol. Another mistake I made was not pointing out that a possible motive for you clearing Singer was so you could NK her. (Though that would have been shot down based on the assumption that if imbued VV protected her he couldn't be RB'd.)

One thing I'm proud of: I never believed your fake claim, which makes me VERY HAPPY and might be the best thing I did all game. It might have worked, though, if you hadn't plugged in hohum AND Gandalf. (I know you couldn't afford to use anyone else's name in there, though.) I would have been skeptical no matter what, but claiming to have investigated those two players, and in particular, Gandalf instead of Singer on N2, is why I definitely didn't believe you.

AGM, you lynched me first, and I flipped town. Didn't that make you question Fate at all? I also have a problem with the "always follow confirmed town" rule when it's obvious the confirmed town is dead wrong and obv-scum is sitting there laughing through it all. There was a time in D4 I wish everyone would have just stepped back from the game and taken a collective breath and tried to work things out calmly, but Fate's impassioned, near tears plea to lynch me undid any hope of that; if I had been more on the ball, maybe I could have beaten Fate to the punch there and changed things a bit.

Finally, sure, mistakes were made all around, but ultimately town lost because Fate (and AGM) would not acknowledge that there were holes in his plan and he therefore lynched someone (me) he has repeatedly stated he never believed to be scum. I don't care if Fate was confirmed, AGM, you should have gone over his plans with a fine tooth comb and seen at least the possibility that he was missing something. The acrimony in endgame is not because of the loss; it's because of the way Fate and AGM so condescendingly insisted they were right when they weren't (something AGM still won't acknowledge; props to Fate for doing so) and the way they treated people. (See paragraph one.)

[AlmasterGM]

@Hito: I followed the game too. Andy was going to post immediately, but I reminded him to find pictures. So, thats basically my fault--not his.

I was trying REALLY HARD not to post here but, seriously, all this rage makes everyone look like idiots.

TOWN: YOU LOST. NO MATTER THE REASONS, GET OVER IT.
SCUM: TOWN MAY HAVE BEEN STACKED, BUT YOU WON. PAT YOURSELVES ON THE BACK AND STOP RUBBING IT IN THEIR FACE

Sorry, but ... who are you? The outcome of this game was essentially determined by moderator ruling. At the point where many people, some of whom are well respected on this site, consider the ruling made to be poor, a discussion is absolutely in order so a different standard can be set in the future. So no, I'm not going to just get over it. We're going to talk about it.

[AlmasterGM]

AGM, you lynched me first, and I flipped town. Didn't that make you question Fate at all? I also have a problem with the "always follow confirmed town" rule when it's obvious the confirmed town is dead wrong and obv-scum is sitting there laughing through it all. There was a time in D4 I wish everyone would have just stepped back from the game and taken a collective breath and tried to work things out calmly, but Fate's impassioned, near tears plea to lynch me undid any hope of that; if I had been more on the ball, maybe I could have beaten Fate to the punch there and changed things a bit.

Finally, sure, mistakes were made all around, but ultimately town lost because Fate (and AGM) would not acknowledge that there were holes in his plan and he therefore lynched someone (me) he has repeatedly stated he never believed to be scum. I don't care if Fate was confirmed, AGM, you should have gone over his plans with a fine tooth comb and seen at least the possibility that he was missing something. The acrimony in endgame is not because of the loss; it's because of the way Fate and AGM so condescendingly insisted they were right when they weren't (something AGM still won't acknowledge; props to Fate for doing so) and the way they treated people. (See paragraph one.)

I'm going to ask you the same question I asked VV:

If you were in my shoes, voting MS over VV would have meant believing that there was a double roleblocking, nightkilling mafia member in the game. Would you reached that conclusion?

[ToastyToast]

Sorry, but ... who are you? The outcome of this game was essentially determined by moderator ruling. At the point where many people, some of whom are well respected on this site, consider the ruling made to be poor, a discussion is absolutely in order so a different standard can be set in the future. So no, I'm not going to just get over it. We're going to talk about it.

You've already "talked" (a.k.a. bitched) about it for like 7 pages. And I'm a friend of Andy's. Also, the roleblocking thing was in the rules. Masterspy did so first, scum won.

[AlmasterGM]

You've already "talked" (a.k.a. bitched) about it for like 7 pages. And I'm a friend of Andy's. Also, the roleblocking thing was in the rules. Masterspy did so first, scum won.

If you don't like the conversation, you are free to not participate. I could understand the Mafia being upset about the discussion, as they might feel it was detracting from their deserved win, but you weren't even the game, so you really have no right to pass judgement. In any case, however, I think fact that the conversation has been going on for seven page demonstrates that this IS an important matter that should be discussed.

As for it being in the rules - I'm not disputing that, but it doesn't make it any less bad of a rule. In my opinion, it should not have been resolved that way in the first place.

[Sevei]

What about your vote on me? Before VV vs. MS was really an issue? Why me over MS, when the only logical third-party I could have been was survivor?

[AlmasterGM]

What about your vote on me? Before VV vs. MS was really an issue? Why me over MS, when the only logical third-party I could have been was survivor?

First, answer my question.

Second, you could have any third party role. We didn't know. All we knew was that your claim was odd given all the other roles. Moreover, given that we THOUGHT we were backing MS into a confirmed-wall, taking care of you at that juncture seemed like a fine move.

Again, it all seems incredibly obvious from your perspective because both Fate and I were clearly town AND you knew your role PM. You had that one extra piece of information that was key to the puzzle. I did not have that advantage.

[Gammagooey]

Fate I swear.

Prev. Edit. The LOSS isn't the reason for the vitriol. The way the loss came about, and the amount of personal abuse inflicted--that's the reason for the vitriol.

They're not this mad because they think you and you alone lost this game, although that is what they're saying to try and get you to be humble for once and they believe it to be true.

They're mad because you were a major part of the loss and you did it while screaming about how incompetent everyone else was and how much better your plan and opinions were then theirs. Saying that the setup was bad and that AGM was a big part of the loss too isn't going to change anyone's mind about how you played this game.

[GreyICE]

I've actually been following this game, long story, and the amount of drama here is utterly disproportional to the amount that should be. I'd say the following were the biggest problems, in no particular order:

1) Hohum
2) Hohum
3) Hohum

When I realized he'd taken the role of town vigilante and turned it into serial killer is when I started to just shake my head. Why y'all are talking about everyone else as if they did wrong when he accomplished the following:

1) Killed an obvtown player out of spite
2) Burned the role of vigilante by doing nothing with it
3) Forced the town to lynch him over scum because he was more dangerous than scum at that juncture (he was going to use his NK to shoot town, lynching scum didn't get rid of a NK on town)

Hohum single handedly took out two townies and his own power role for no reason. Everyone else, EVERYONE else pales in comparison to that play.

Also, goddamn is there too much hate in here.

[Fate]

Look, there's something about me you guys don't know. I know I come off as arrogant ass that's never thinks he wrong, but I'm not. I know it looks like I'm blaming everyone else except myself for the loss but its not true.

I lost this for town. I know I did. And its gonna stick with me awhile. There isn't a single game I've personally lost that I don't regret to this day. Games I still lay awake at night hurting myself for for being so blind. Just like in Life.

I spent a lot of time diffusing the blame onto Andrius, the setup, Agm, singer, whatever. In the end the person I blame the most is myself.

I know many of you won't forgive me, and I know many of you will carry this against me for a long time, fine. But please stop the insults. I don't need any help feeling like shit.

I'm even posting this from a phone because I can't stop feeling like shit, and I won't be able to type anymore for a few hoursl, and I'm hoping a heartfelt explanation of myself right now might make me feel better.

I screwed up, I got fooled, I got zealous, I lost.

Please let's stop beating this horse, and move on to new games. There's no more fun to be had here unless you're a sadist.

See you next time.

[Katsuki]

'

[quadz08]

Look, there's something about me you guys don't know. I know I come off as arrogant ass that's never thinks he wrong, but I'm not. I know it looks like I'm blaming everyone else except myself for the loss but its not true.

I lost this for town. I know I did. And its gonna stick with me awhile. There isn't a single game I've personally lost that I don't regret to this day. Games I still lay awake at night hurting myself for for being so blind. Just like in Life.

I spent a lot of time diffusing the blame onto Andrius, the setup, Agm, singer, whatever. In the end the person I blame the most is myself.

I know many of you won't forgive me, and I know many of you will carry this against me for a long time, fine. But please stop the insults. I don't need any help feeling like shit.

I'm even posting this from a phone because I can't stop feeling like shit, and I won't be able to type anymore for a few hoursl, and I'm hoping a heartfelt explanation of myself right now might make me feel better.

I screwed up, I got fooled, I got zealous, I lost.

Please let's stop beating this horse, and move on to new games. There's no more fun to be had here unless you're a sadist.

See you next time.

Thank you, Fate. I genuinely appreciate that.

[Katsuki]

'

[singersigner]

I've never had more respect for Fate than I do in this moment.

[Andrius]

As far as the MODERATION of this game goes...

I thought it was operated very smooth and the game was fun, but there were quite a few areas that could use improvement. 1) The person with the ring should not have been roleblockable. That resulted in waay too many issues at the endgame. 2) There was WAY too much reliance on flavor. E.g., "Magna's claim didn't make sense because all the Nazgul have swords!" Any time you make an argument like that, it's not fair to the people who don't know the flavor. 3) Most importantly, I would NOT have resolved the roleblocking thing the way you did. Yes, that is what the wiki suggest and what I suggested you do IF you were to force a tiebreak, but given that a) You were already letting MS take two actions b) I had the one-ring and c) Roleblock preceeds NK on the NAR list, I think the kill should have definitely been roleblocked. Leaving it up to "lol who F5'd faster" is just not very satisfying.

1) The point wasn't for it to be a end-all-be-all laundry list of protections like SSBMafia. In a larger game it would have been. I never planned for them to be non-roleblockable, and I understand the concern.
2) Yes. The One Ring shouldn't have been a character, or at least, the confirmable role.
3) Trust me, the whole whichever-comes-first will NOT happen again. That was a fix to a problem I didn't forsee (the double-RBs) that I took from Vi. No offense, but it doesn't really work here all too well.

chesskid trolling sucks. I'd delete all the posts but I can't so I won't bother.

And honestly, this turning into a hate-thread is NOT how this is supposed to work.

And no one had a double-action all game. Where did this "double-RB" thing come from again?

hito
Yeah, I know I'm a ditz. And the time thing won't happen again. I needed quick fix, I got quick fix that was shitty. Like trying to buy alcohol and you get prune juice.


AGM, Toast is a IRL friend of mine who got Culted into Mafia by me.


I'm leaving this thread open. For now. If the hating continues like this then it'll be locked. Feel free to PM me to comment/whatever.
I will NOT take browbeating, and won't tolerate it any longer for the players.
You all were an AMAZING group and I'd love to have you back again.

I'm responsible for the stacked town. And the mod-replacement. And the shitty rule added midgame.

I did NOT force-replace RC to bone the town. Whoever said that needs to STFU and GTFO.

I've said this over and over again in five different places but I'm overhauling how I moderate and the rules under which I moderate before my next game.

If we can't keep this civil then it will be locked.

I have no problem with people who didn't play posting, but chesskid and (to a lesser extent) Katsuki's stuff is unacceptable.


-Andy

[Katsuki]

My stuff consisted of a single "*poke*".

If that's unacceptable, then I don't know what the other stuff is.

[Katsuki]

By other stuff, it includes CK posts.

[singersigner]

<3 Andy

We're all learning from our mistakes here.

Also, I still don't understand why AGM and Fate keep saying that I made a mistake in gifting VV...no one alive knew who or what I did until the game ended. There's no way to know I didn't gift anyone until then. If I was roleblocked, I still could've gifted Fate and he not get it. The speculation that I messed up because I "didn't follow the plan" is skewed.

Sevei and I are now star-crossed lovers.

[Katsuki]

The thing is that you ended up not being roleblocked. Therefore, had you gifted fate, they would have known you were not roleblocked, as oppose to the wild goose chase they went on as a result of having thought that you were.

[Katsuki]

*Had you actually been roleblocked, it would have been an entirely different story.

[singersigner]

No, they wouldn't have known I was not roleblocked. They ASSUMED I was because they didn't know that my action

resolved

after my death.

It had nothing to do with me being roleblocked or not. It had to do with the night action resolution, which they had no way of knowing how Andy was deciding to do it.

[hitogoroshi]

hito
Yeah, I know I'm a ditz. And the time thing won't happen again. I needed quick fix, I got quick fix that was shitty. Like trying to buy alcohol and you get prune juice.

For what it's worth, if you ever need help with a game/setup related issue in the future, I'm always down to help.

[singersigner]

I've actually been following this game, long story, and the amount of drama here is utterly disproportional to the amount that should be. I'd say the following were the biggest problems, in no particular order:

1) Hohum
2) Hohum
3) Hohum

When I realized he'd taken the role of town vigilante and turned it into serial killer is when I started to just shake my head. Why y'all are talking about everyone else as if they did wrong when he accomplished the following:

1) Killed an obvtown player out of spite
2) Burned the role of vigilante by doing nothing with it
3) Forced the town to lynch him over scum because he was more dangerous than scum at that juncture (he was going to use his NK to shoot town, lynching scum didn't get rid of a NK on town)

Hohum single handedly took out two townies and his own power role for no reason. Everyone else, EVERYONE else pales in comparison to that play.

Also, goddamn is there too much hate in here.

[Katsuki]

No, they wouldn't have known I was not roleblocked. They ASSUMED I was because they didn't know that my action

resolved

after my death.

It had nothing to do with me being roleblocked or not. It had to do with the night action resolution, which they had no way of knowing how Andy was deciding to do it.

Ignore me, I was thinking of something else.