American Gods Mafia - Game over

[Ythill]

@GG Ninja:

I've got more important things to do than play your silly games, chess.

Wagon dynamics:
Half of the players have voted SGR at one point or another. His wagon swelled and held strong across two counters and then dissolved when "dangerously-influential" me called for an OGML wagon. IF SGR is town, scum were parking and jumped off after it started to fall apart.

SGRaaize (4) - A Gaggle of Geese,

OhGodMyLife

,

Ghostlin

, Ythill
SGRaaize (6) - A Gaggle of Geese,

OhGodMyLife

,

Ghostlin

,

Apokalyptika

, Llamafluff, animorpherv1
SGRaaize (6) -

OhGodMyLife

,

Ghostlin

,

Apokalyptika

, animorpherv1,

Tasky

, Locke Lamora
SGRaaize (4) -

OhGodMyLife

,

Ghostlin

, animorpherv, Locke Lamora
SGRaaize (2) - animorpherv1, Locke Lamora

Townie brownies for Apok and Magna (which is ironic). Scumpoints for OGML and Ghost.

SGR's cardflip is going to be valuable. I'd rather not lynch him b/c I have him as a pretty clear townread, but I'd like to see him dead before LYLO.

@SGR:

If you are still alive and not confirmed town when the time comes to revive me, please consider sacrificing yourself.

[Ythill]

UNVOTE: OGML
VOTE: Ghostlin I'm getting back on the bigger wagon.

@Mod: Error in the last VC; vezo never unvoted AGar. It looks like you may have skipped a VC when copying to update. Might want to double check the whole thing.

Fixed. -Mod

[Seacore]

At the moment, Farside and Gaggle are going to be backstage with Ythill and I.

Dear god.

I have no problem with either being in there, but it's the both. It's going to be this back and forth business that we've got going right now. Perhaps people want to consider that with their elect votes. Perhaps a few less votes for Gaggle, a few more votes for Llama.

Speaking of which, I'd like to hear a lot more from Llama

[Jahudo]

”He has been consigned to the Dumpster of history while people like me ride our limos down the superhighway of tomorrow.”

Nexus is V/LA until Tuesday, March 8.
Llamafluff is V/LA until March 9.

Lynch Vote Count

Ghostlin (5) - werewolf555, Llamafluff, Seacore, SGRaaize, Ythill
AGar (3) – Apokalyptika, vezokpiraka, OhGodMyLife
SGRaaize (2) - animorpherv1, Locke Lamora
A Gaggle of Geese (2) – farside22, Saint
OhGodMyLife (1) – AGar
Animorpherv1 (1) – WrathChild
Llamafluff (1) – Nexus
Farside22 (1) - A Gaggle of Geese
MagnaofIllusion (1) – Ghostlin

Not Voting (1):

MagnaofIllusion

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

--------------

Backstage Vote Count:

Top Four Players Go Backstage

Farside22 (10) – animorpherv1, farside22, Seacore, SGRaaize, AGar,
Ythill, Apokalyptika, Locke Lamora, Saint, werewolf555
Ythill (10) – Llamafluff, Seacore, animorpherv1, Agar, farside22, SGRaaize, Vezokpiraka, Apokalyptika, Saint, werewolf555
A Gaggle of Geese (8) – Vezokpiraka, WrathChild, Ghostlin, Apokalyptika, AGar, Llamafluff, Locke Lamora, OhGodMyLife
Seacore (7) – Ythill, Seacore, Vezokpiraka, A Gaggle of Geese, SGRaaize, WrathChild, werewolf555
---
Llamafluff (5) – Ythill, Llamafluff, OhGodMyLife, animorpherv1, Locke Lamora
AGar (3) – farside22, WrathChild, Saint
Ghostlin (2) – A Gaggle of Geese, Ghostlin
OhGodMyLife (1) – OhGodMyLife

Not Voting (8):

A Gaggle of Geese x1, Nexus x3, Ghostlin x1, MagnaofIllusion x3

Today's deadline is March 19 at 6:00 PM EST

[A Gaggle of Geese]

At the moment, Farside and Gaggle are going to be backstage with Ythill and I.

Dear god.

I have no problem with either being in there, but it's the both. It's going to be this back and forth business that we've got going right now. Perhaps people want to consider that with their elect votes. Perhaps a few less votes for Gaggle, a few more votes for Llama.

Speaking of which, I'd like to hear a lot more from Llama

Both of us or neither of us at this point (though obviously we would love no farside, and farside would love no us).
FOPOV, since none of you are seeing Farside-scum, we're unwilling to allow her to talk to you in secret.
presumably, FHPOV, she won't want us talking with you without her being able to see what is said either.

Anybody got a dayvig?

[SGRaaize]

@SGR:

If you are still alive and not confirmed town when the time comes to revive me, please consider sacrificing yourself.

I don't mind being a sacrifice target, I'm just not sure if I want you to be the one revived. Its way too early for us to be thinking about this anyways.

[Ythill]

Perhaps a few less votes for Gaggle, a few more votes for Llama.

Meh. I've been debating swapping my elect from Llama to GG for awhile now. I think you and I can keep them on topic.

@GG:

Since you're here, what are your reads on Magna, Apok, Llama, AGar, and LL? Was playing the farside tells close to your chest discussed as a tactic in your QT? Now that you've had some time to get used to one another, are you finding that your private discussions are critical enough to diminish confirmation bias or cooperative enough to increase it? If allowed backstage with farside, will you do your part to keep your fight with her from distracting us?

@SGR:

I think me being revived is pretty obv. Plenty of players in this game know what I can do with information and at that point my alignment will also be confirmed. I'm not asking you to agree with me about that. I'm just saying:

when it does happen

, at least consider yourself as a target. I mean, if someone is obv-scummy and you're going for a second lynch then, do whatever but, if that's not the case... My point here is simply that confirming your alignment

somehow

is going to be important. In this case: cop > sacrifice > lynch > vig.

[farside22]

Since when was being childish a scumtell?

Seriously are you reading? I was explaining my sarcasm that GG claimed was scummy. I didn't say your actions of unelecting was scum tell. Selective reading much?

[A Gaggle of Geese]

Perhaps a few less votes for Gaggle, a few more votes for Llama.

Meh. I've been debating swapping my elect from Llama to GG for awhile now. I think you and I can keep them on topic.

@GG:

Since you're here, what are your reads on Magna, Apok, Llama, AGar, and LL? Was playing the farside tells close to your chest discussed as a tactic in your QT? Now that you've had some time to get used to one another, are you finding that your private discussions are critical enough to diminish confirmation bias or cooperative enough to increase it? If allowed backstage with farside, will you do your part to keep your fight with her from distracting us?

Magna's scummy. Agar's comitted some 'towntells' and 'scumtells', on reflection I think I'd have him as slightly pro town, he's reminding me more of his town game than scum game, but more data here will be good. Apok is actually reasonably okay, Llama's entirely neutral and Locke is pro-town.

Yeah, it was discussed as a tactic, we thought it was a very good idea and are pleased with the results, since farside's pretty much trying to bs her way out of it. As for confirmation bias, no idea, it's pretty hard to tell, I'm not particularly prone to doubting myself, it's hard to explain certain things as I think if I try to explain

why

something is scummy it can sound inadaquate, but yeah. I don't know really, I like to think there's no little confirmation bias. I've no real interest in fighting with farside, I'd just prefer if she was lynched. And we're trying hard to try and not let the farside thing be too much of a distraction.

[AGar]

Oh look, OGML tried starting a wagon on me.

Wasn't it a few pages ago that OGML was spewing I'm conditionally scum ONLY if SGR is scum, and without that, he doesn't find me scummy? And he wasn't chaining lynches?

Yeah, sup scum?

More OGML votes would be good. We have scum in our sights here, I see no more point in hopping back and forth between several wagons.

[vezokpiraka]

@Ythill: I played with AGar in Reck's LOST games. He was both town and scum in that games. I get the meta read from the language he is using although it may be because this game is bigger than Lost. I still think he is scum.

Also he was scum in mafia on holy orders and acted the same.

[Saint]

@Farside, your hyperlink was broken for me. It didn't go back to what you said it would, instead it just went back to the start of the game.

First up, direct responses...

SGR v Ghost is boring me. I feel like the stances are clear on both sides.

We agree with this, in that it is town-on-town and only gets more apparent every time each of them posts.

You v far was fruitful at first, but has become boring as well. My notes have you at dynamic MotR and I'm starting to think that only the chess head is being scummy. That

could

mean either alignment. However, I'm also noting as of this post the absence of a pretty solid Faraday meta scumtell. Hydras are weird (and by that I mean weird, Seacore).

@GG + far:

If BS (BackStage) was a majority vote, far would already have been sent and GG'd be @ BS-2. Neither of you is going to be today's lynch. Anyone voting either of you should start paying attention and stop wasting their vote. This includes both of you.

This isn't town agar I know.

Explain please. I have some experience with town AGar but no meta read at this point.

@Magna:

Hi. Do you like replacing in as scum?

(1) Perhaps I am reading too much into this. (2) Do you share your scumreads? (3) Who else do you see as being a likely scumteam with OGML?

1. Not "too much," just reading it in the wrong direction. I'm more interested in vote changes than behavioral stuff.
   
2. Yes, and I have in this game. Please do not waste my time with the obvious.
   
3. I don't think OGML is scum per se. And I think associative tells are pointless speculation on D1. If you're asking who I find scummy, the current list is: ani, Ghost, Magna, Wrath, and Apok.

Regardless of how you feel about GG or farside, do we really want them to go backstage together, get into a possible argument that might derail and dominate the backstage talk considering how they're going at it RIGHT NOW?

Thought provoking... after consideration, this may actually be desirable for what I have in mind for Backstage. I

really

need to get a solid read on the Geese.

1) What do you mean the wrong direction? What do you wish to perceive to get out of those votechanges?
2) it is not necessarily obvious. You could reserve scumreads to not be nightkilled. If you have the entire scumteam pegged, I'd imagine they're going to kill you.
3) I would be happy lynching either of the first two. Magna? I'd like to know why. Tasky didn't seem to be under a lot of pressure, though I'll admit I did come to a gut scum read here when I saw him replace in. It just didn't make any sense, is all. Wrath = WrathChild? He always appears scummy. I had to save his ass when he was town in the last game I completed, Cyclical Experiment. I'll ISO him really fast and get back to you.

in the meanwhile..

I just did an ISO of OGML and it's moderately scummy.
There's a lack of scum hunting, there's rhetoric without cases. There's a lot of fluff.

I think OGML is scum. I think OGML could very well be scum with AGar due to two points. 1) AGar is on his list of "if SGR flips scum, these people are scum" there's no info there, so it could just be some light distancing. 2) He votes to start a wagon on AGar, knowing AGar isn't going to be a lynch today, but this way he can say "hey, I try to START a wagon on AGar ages ago, he can't possibly be my buddy.

But that relationship isn't based on whether AGar is scummy, I'll look into that lately.

So at the moment, I'll vote for Ghostlin or OGML, whichever has a larger wagon.

I really don't like this post. I don't expect Seacore to be lynched, and I have found his play suspicious when he is town before, so perhaps my read of him is off yet again. However, I feel like he is trying to take away from OGML. It's akin to a day-1 FoS into a vote of Ghostlin, I would expect. Since he is voting Ghostlin, I really should tack my vote back onto OGML, as I feel it is an associative tell he dropped here.

@Ythill, why the wagon hop? Right when I get suspicious of Seacore for defending OGML, you go and hop onto the largest bandwagon? I'm beginning to read your defense of SGR in #325, if you could even call it that, as reason for you being scum. You know he's town, so he's someone you can defend very easily.

Im actually leaning town on WrathChild after isoing him, although I disagree with him listing Gag and Seacore as town. He is going to join my townreads. I actually have 2 townreads which I would be willing to bet very, very good money on at this point

[A Gaggle of Geese]

@Ythill: I played with AGar in Reck's LOST games. He was both town and scum in that games. I get the meta read from the language he is using although it may be because this game is bigger than Lost. I still think he is scum.

Also he was scum in mafia on holy orders and acted the same.

Can you elaborate some? cos I've sort of gotten the opposite read, it's more like his town play I saw when he was attacking me in S2.

Seacore's pretty obv town Saint.

[farside22]

@Farside, your hyperlink was broken for me. It didn't go back to what you said it would, instead it just went back to the start of the game.

I put in the correct link when I quoted it and asked GG the question a second time.

I'm working on analysis of each player this week. Monday's are bad for me these days so I probably won't have it complete till tomorrow.

[vezokpiraka]

I don't know.

He doesn't seem to be the town he was in S2 I think?

He seems to play like he did in Mafia on holy orders and that was a large game. I think I picked up something but it requires way too much work for me to put in it at this moment. I'll see if I can come up with a reasonable explanation tomorrow.

[Saint]

MoHo 1 or 2?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Catching up incoming … and I’m going to try to keep the wall to a minimum –

@SGR

– I’m going to be lazy and just ask you … were you scum in Gorrad’s Large again? I’ll look it up later if I have to but it will go a long way to solidifying what side of the ledger I think you are on ..

--

Elect farside, MoI, and AGar.

Obv reasoning is obvious.

VOTE: OGML

You can see the reasons below. There are some others I would join as necessary but he’s far and away my strongest Scum read.

--

The amount of slap-fighting between VIs in the first 6 pages almost made me lose my breakfast.

--

Ahahahahaha. Faraday nailed it. We both agreed you were scummy as hell after 242, and he was like "hey let's vote Farside with no explanation so she can omgus us".
Sweet.

And this is where you guys lost your Town read and Election from me. Somehow, out of the blue, voting for Farside (an analytical player who likes reasoning and logic) and not expecting the reaction is fail. It certainly isn’t some Grand Scum-catching ‘Tarp’.

Shame on you Faraday. Crap like that I expect from Chesstroll. You know better.

--

Oh, and after mulling it over at work... Sacrifice/Ressurect situation is nigh worthless aside from prior to MYLO/LYLO.

QFT. We don’t need to talk this any more than to say that I expect we will be using the mechanic to switch out our veritable crop of VIs for competent Town down the line.

--

OhGod is scum and needs to die. Given that it has looked difficult to actually get a wagon going on him makes me comfortable with this stance.

Let’s put this together is a nice little package ….

AGar is somehow managing to fallaciously defend both SGR and himself with that BS about seeing town defend and get frustrated more than scum. Thats a whole new level.

Attacking with the assertion that Town don’t defend and don’t get frustrated? At first I said just stupid but then his later attempts to say Agar wasn’t reflecting reality in his stance (BTW, he was) leaps from dumb to scumtastic.

@OGML: You intrigue me because you've dropped a few towntells but your shift from gut to bad reasoning as the wagon built seems dirty. I looked closer at SGR and my initial read was accurate: he's doing the opposite of avoiding attention. It seems like you thought adding fluff to far's point would make it seem like your own.

This summarizes exactly why OGML is scum (except the part about dropping Towntells which don’t exist, just like Santa, the Easter Bunny, and OGML making a logical post).

I find it interesting that SGR went to great lengths to make farside look as town as possible, then just went meh yeah don't care about AGar.

Vote: AGar

I find it scummy that you are again using relational tells that haven’t been established due to alignment flips to support a stupid hop back on obv-Town AGar

I'd quote more but it is just easier to read his ISO which is chock full of one-liners and lack of scum-hunting.

--

@SGR: Srsly dude, wagon != lynch. Flirting with a handful of big wagons is the key to catching scum. The info we create today is the win on D4, especially in

a setup that's heavily weighted to favor town in the midgame.

Bolded for emphasis – how exactly do you know the set-up is weighted to favour Town mid-game?

--

This isn't town agar I know. Sorry.

Disagreed. This looks very much like the AGar of Lost S2, Blackest Night and [REDACTED].

[SGRaaize]

@SGR

– I’m going to be lazy and just ask you … were you scum in Gorrad’s Large again? I’ll look it up later if I have to but it will go a long way to solidifying what side of the ledger I think you are on ..

Nope

[Locke Lamora]

OGML is obviously ignoring both my question and others pointing out that his vote for AGar is not the natural conclusion to his reasoning. Earlier I just thought he wasn't paying attention (saying SGR was trying to avoid confrontation and attention indicated a total lack of awareness of the thread) but I now think it's much more deliberate and he's just trying to avoid answering difficult questions and only commenting on very specific things as it suits him.

Unvote; Vote: OGML

SGR: to me, you seem to be totting up town and scum points based on how many posts you find townie and how many you find scummy. Your '6 out of 22' did give me this impression, but this also matches your attitude to Ythill, in that although you suggested he was scummy early on for his WC case (although you STILL haven't been fully committal on that) and he never explained this to your satisfaction, 'far-fetched' being the most positive thing you said about it', you still gave the indication that he'd made enough town posts since for you to dismiss this as a town 'mistake' rather than a scumtell. It seems mathematical to me.

AGar: can you answer the question I asked (again) in my last post?

On Farside vs GG: GG's vote on Farside seems town-motivated to me as a genuine attempt to elicit a reaction. I think Farside's reaction is what I'd expect from town-Farside too, it's a little hostile, but it looks like a reasonable reaction from a townie being voted for no case, especially by someone who Farside had already indicated she had mild suspicions of. After that I think most of it is just pointless arguing over things like whether not making cases is scummy. If it goes on for a lot longer to the detriment of them scumhunting elsewhere, I'll be more concerned, but right now I think they're both town.

Magna: who would you lynch first out of Apok, Nexus and Werewolf, and why?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: who would you lynch first out of Apok, Nexus and Werewolf, and why?

Do I honestly have to choose? Can’t we carpet-bomb all of them and be done with it?

Looking at their ISOs I would say Werewolf would be my first choice. His ISO lacks any sort of content I would judge to be Pro-Town other than electing Farside. I disagree with much of the sentiment Apok is posting but at least she is taking stances with reasons attached to them. Nexus has consistently claimed to be sick in other games and announced this V/LA til tomorrow.

My question to you Locke – why didn’t you include Animorph or Vezok in that list?

[Apokalyptika]

1) The thing is, AGar, this is day 1. There are no flips, no night actions, nothing. The ONLY thing that we can base scumreads off of is people's words, so nobody can be completely sure of scum except scum. So, even if you're personally sure someone is scum, even if you'd bet your life on it, you're still going to consider the possibility of being wrong, unless you're scum. For instance, I'm considering the possibility of being wrong on you. If I am wrong, then we're disagreeing over semantics, and we might end up with another pointless fight, which is the last thing town needs. However, I'm confident enough to take the risk. Anyone else want to join me?

2) So the Ghost/SGR fight was null all over the place. GG/farside, however, is far more interesting, leading me to believe that there may be scum there. If I had to pick one, it would definitely be GG. That being said, I'm not too inclined to unelect them at the moment. I have null-to-town feelings about everyone else currently going backstage, and I'm sure that everyone else can tell them to keep their squabbling to the game thread.

3) Welcome, MoI. Any comment on my AGar case?

4) I read over OGML's posts again. Not the towniest posting I've ever seen, but not as scummy as AGar. I could actually see them being scumbuddies, though.

5) I really want to hear more from ani, werewolf, and vezok.

[WrathChild]

Oh look, OGML tried starting a wagon on me.

Wasn't it a few pages ago that OGML was spewing I'm conditionally scum ONLY if SGR is scum, and without that, he doesn't find me scummy? And he wasn't chaining lynches?

Yeah, sup scum?

More OGML votes would be good. We have scum in our sights here, I see no more point in hopping back and forth between several wagons.

As stated in my Read Notes. I would be happy with an OGML lynch. While he's moved on from tunneling on SGR, his posts since have not improved my opinion of him much at all.

In his ISO #15 he pleads that tunneling is not scummy. This is where I see him at least make an effort to stop doing so. In ISO #16 he does an interesting thing an unelects farside then elects gaggle who he just tried to grill about giving SGR a town read. In ISO #17 he unvotes, but is still trying imply that SGR is scum by appearing to set him up with the question of who to vote for. This implication by OGML is a bit complicated but I can explain it in more detail if people don't see it as I do, but you can see where things were going in ISO #18-20. However, in ISO#20 OGML votes Agar because SGR went "Meh" about him. The still seems like he is basing his reads off other people solely on their interactions with SGR, so even though he is trying to appear like he is no longer tunneling (because he was called out pretty hard on it), he still is. Then in ISO #22 he advocates that Farside is scum, but still wants to see where an Agar wagon goes, which was at a measley 3 votes at the time.

The problem with this whole OGML-Agar thing is that it is based solely on SGR's interactions with Agar. Not anything Agar did.

UNVOTE, VOTE: OGML

[WrathChild]

1) The thing is, AGar, this is day 1. There are no flips, no night actions, nothing. The ONLY thing that we can base scumreads off of is people's words, so nobody can be completely sure of scum except scum. So, even if you're personally sure someone is scum, even if you'd bet your life on it, you're still going to consider the possibility of being wrong, unless you're scum. For instance, I'm considering the possibility of being wrong on you. If I am wrong, then we're disagreeing over semantics, and we might end up with another pointless fight, which is the last thing town needs. However, I'm confident enough to take the risk. Anyone else want to join me?

2) So the Ghost/SGR fight was null all over the place. GG/farside, however, is far more interesting, leading me to believe that there may be scum there. If I had to pick one, it would definitely be GG. That being said, I'm not too inclined to unelect them at the moment. I have null-to-town feelings about everyone else currently going backstage, and I'm sure that everyone else can tell them to keep their squabbling to the game thread.

3) Welcome, MoI. Any comment on my AGar case?

4) I read over OGML's posts again. Not the towniest posting I've ever seen, but not as scummy as AGar. I could actually see them being scumbuddies, though.

5) I really want to hear more from ani, werewolf, and vezok.

I agree with #5. Ani vanished when the heat got turned up.

[A Gaggle of Geese]

And this is where you guys lost your Town read and Election from me. Somehow, out of the blue, voting for Farside (an analytical player who likes reasoning and logic) and not expecting the reaction is fail. It certainly isn’t some Grand Scum-catching ‘Tarp’.

Her response isn't logical at all though. Unexplained votes are great.

[SGRaaize]

Guys, I think we can all agree that Ani is scum. As far as my eyes told me as I reread the thread. There's not one person that believes Ani is town.

Unvote

Vote: Animorpherv

I think he's the best wagon to take, considering pretty much everyone agrees on his lynch.