268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson

[Alexander]

1. Too numerous to mention all examples
2. I went back because once I examined the evidence it looks more like "lynch all forgetters". Not that I am saying she's NOT a liar, she could well be, but there's a healthy chance she just forgot.
3. Well, broomhead FOS'ed me at the beginning of this game based on my behavior in a previous game ... so I must now fume in righeous indignation and say it's wrong... just kidding, it's a valid, although not too conclusive, consideration.

[Foolster41]

Pariah:You're still not increabily scummy to me, but you in my opinion our best lead. What I mean is, you havn't convinced me your not pro-town though I'm not quite sure your scum either.

The thing about Talitha is kinda suspicous, but Alex might be right, it could only be forgetfullnes. Now that someone's mentioned it, it's harded to call her on it now.

Alex: No need to be sarcastic.

[broomhead]

Alex: you sound a little sore about the whole FOS thing, it was just the first vote, and i really didn't want to random vote, so previous game experience was all i had to go on.

unFOS: Alexander

[N_lich]

1) She said she didn't have access and has now told every other thread in which she posted limited access that she's back EXCEPT for this one.
2) Before she left, she made it sound as though she wanted to vote Pariah but wasn't doing so only because she wouldn't have access
3) She now has access but hasn't returned here ONLY -- and still isn't voting Pariah
4) That says, to me, that she doesn't want to vote Pariah for some reason. More likely that reason involves her being scum than him being scum, in my opinion.

I agree the absence is suspiscous (significantly more than a usual period of lurking would be because of the behavior outlined in point 2). However, it's not quite enough to persuade me to move my vote.

FOS:Talitha

[Adele]

Talitha's on dial-up? She has several games going? She can't guarantee to keep them all up as she could otherwise be expected to? Fair enough, in my view.

Doesn't look scummy to me. However, nor does MeMe, who I was starting to distrust, but who now seems okay-ish.

MeMe: I just disagree with you. Quite a lot, but there you go.

[Talitha]

Heh, I just noticed that I am the topic of conversation. FYI I was purposefully avoiding this thread because I haven't actually read

any

of it carefully yet, and I did not want to make another lame post. 2 of my other games are at crucial stages, 1 required re-reading, and I have had to step in and mod another game. So this one being in day 1 is bottom priority, sorry. I will get to it.

[Talitha]

And BTW, my wireless connection got fixed late yesterday But thanks for cutting me some slack.

[vIQleS]

Vote Count:

broomhead - 1 - (Talitha)
Foolster41 - 1 - (N_lich)
N_lich - 1 - (Tamuz)
Pariah - 2 - (Foolster41, Fritzler)
Talitha - 1 - (MeMe)

Not Voting - (Adele, Alexander, broomhead, chaotic_diablo, Pariah )
6 to lynch

[Talitha]

MeMe: Am I mistaken or did you imply that I have a history of lurking/non-posting in games where I am scum?

[MeMe]

You are mistaken.

Your history is one of attentiveness in every game, regardless of role. I don't think I've ever seen you use the "oops! forgot about this game!" excuse

anywhere

and I'm somewhat appeased to see you're not attempting to use it here.

[Alexander]

I started doing a PBPA of some players, in an effort to finally get myself to vote. I decided to start with the players that were attacked by MeMe: broomhead, Pariah, Talitha. I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum. Alas, this was not meant to be.

This is what I found:

The attack on broomhead: starts when he FOS's me for flimsy reasons (although it's the start of the game, so anything goes), ends when he makes a mistake (deliberate or not?) regarding how many people to lynch.

The attack on Pariah: starts as he makes 3 posts that "encourage broad suspicion", according to MeMe. However on a third re-read, I actually begin to see those posts are raising perfectly valid points AND refusing to sell his vote for cheap... which is exactly what I am trying to do. The attack quells when a more suitable (?) target appears, in the shape of dial-up-Talitha. Or maybe it had something to do with not enough people joining the wagon.

The attack on Talitha: accused T. of lying about her access. Initially sounded convincing, but when I examined the evidence there was actually not much in it. Lich, Adele and Foolster also voiced opinions that it's mildly suspicious, but not enough for a vote. MeMe herself seems to have withdrawn the allegation. She's not attacking Talitha in her last post.

Now, I'm not saying of course those 3 aren't scum, but I think their chances are not higher than anyone elses. Which of course led me to think about the initiator of the attacks, MeMe.

All of this put together leads me to believe that MeMe is attacking people whom she really doesn't believe to be scum. Is she doing so because she is scum herself and is trying to shove a wagon into motion, or is she just a townie probing at semi-random to see if she stirs up a hornet's nest?

I'd like to check this, and the only way to do it is to stir up something myself. In other words, run something up the flagpole and see who will salute; rattle the cage and see who will ask for a banana... ok, enough with the metaphores already...

Vote: MeMe

[Alexander]

Sorry, forgot to bold the vote.

Vote: MeMe

[MeMe]

As I told Adele, "attacks" is a strong word.

When I'm voting, it will always be for the person I consider most likely to be scum at the time. Since that changes often (especially on day one), I will be changing votes often. Please recall that none of my votes contained any reason (aka "attack") to begin -- they were simply votes. I was pressed to defend the votes and, since I was able to do so, it seems you're now able to characterize those as attacks. Would you think it more reasonable to park a vote when one no longer thinks it's the best place for it?

Now let's look at your post.

I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum. Alas, this was not meant to be.

Please tell me how you've arrived at the conclusion that none of the three are scum. I will point out that I, myself, am currently of the mind that neither broomhead or Pariah is the number-one suspect -- otherwise, I'd still be voting one of them. I'd also like to know whether you think that being "the most experienced player" in a game means "catches scum within first three vote tries." I'd really like to see some of your PBPA because, later on this post, you say that you're not saying that the none of the three are scum...but right here you kinda do. I'd like to see what you found and why you're waffling.

The attack on broomhead: starts when he FOS's me for flimsy reasons (although it's the start of the game, so anything goes), ends when he makes a mistake (deliberate or not?) regarding how many people to lynch.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "deliberate or not" here. If you think it was deliberate, that should mean that you think his mistake is a lie and, as you said earlier, "lynch all liars." Was that in your PBPA?

The attack on Pariah: starts as he makes 3 posts that "encourage broad suspicion", according to MeMe. However on a third re-read, I actually begin to see those posts are raising perfectly valid points AND refusing to sell his vote for cheap... which is exactly what I am trying to do.

Alexander, as I said in my explanation for my vote on Pariah -- it was enough for a vote. Three others (you included) thought that I had a valid point.

The attack quells when a more suitable (?) target appears, in the shape of dial-up-Talitha. Or maybe it had something to do with not enough people joining the wagon.

It had everything to do with me changing my mind. Explained in full.

The attack on Talitha: accused T. of lying about her access.

Certainly did not accuse her of lying. I pointed out that she herself had said elsewhere that her connection had returned and that it seemed she was deliberately staying out of this thread only (proven correct) and that it seemed that it might be because she doesn't want to vote Pariah despite her expressing interest in doing so (proof pending).

Initially sounded convincing, but when I examined the evidence there was actually not much in it. Lich, Adele and Foolster also voiced opinions that it's mildly suspicious, but not enough for a vote.

This might be where we differ most strongly. On day one, everything's enough for a vote. I'll also just point out that though I

might

be wrong about why she stayed away, the explanation you provided on her behalf ("she forgot") was definitely wrong according to Talitha herself.

MeMe herself seems to have withdrawn the allegation. She's not attacking Talitha in her last post.

When I change my mind, I will change my vote. Every post I make need not contain defense of prior actions. Even if I do wind up changing my vote -- that won't necessarily negate earlier observations. Don't assume that I no longer agree with myself just because I choose not to repeat myself. Case in point: I could easily go back to voting for Pariah later. He's just not my best guess at the moment.

Now, I'm not saying of course those 3 aren't scum, but I think their chances are not higher than anyone elses. Which of course led me to think about the initiator of the attacks, MeMe.

Again, the loaded use of "attacks."

All of this put together leads me to believe that MeMe is attacking people whom she really doesn't believe to be scum. Is she doing so because she is scum herself and is trying to shove a wagon into motion, or is she just a townie probing at semi-random to see if she stirs up a hornet's nest?

None of the above. As I said, I'll be voting the person I think most worthy of a vote at any time. Nothing "semi-random" about any vote I make past my first one. They're not concrete, because it's day one -- but they're always my best guess.

I'd like to check this, and the only way to do it is to stir up something myself. In other words, run something up the flagpole and see who will salute; rattle the cage and see who will ask for a banana... ok, enough with the metaphores already...

Cool. You claim to be voting someone you suspect to see what happens. Wonder why I'm accused for doing the same...

[Alexander]

Cool. You claim to be voting someone you suspect to see what happens. Wonder why I'm accused for doing the same...

Because you did it 3 times today, and in all 3 times you voted for someone whom (after further read) I did not consider more-scummy-then-average. I don't know your play style, and maybe constantly shifting your vote is what you always do, but it doesn't look good to me.

As for the rest of your arguments, we must agree to disagree, I guess.

[MeMe]

Which means that I'm credited with gathering about three times the information that you are currently, right?

I like to have a vote "out there" on day one -- I think that

most

experienced players do, but you're welcome to check my other games if you question my truthfulness in this. When it takes six to lynch, the votes aren't as precious.

[MeMe]

Just for the sake of completeness: do you plan on responding more fully later?

[Alexander]

I have nothing to respond do. You seem to be sticking to your position calmly, you have corrected me on some points, which I grudgingly accept (you didn't accuse T. of lying about her access, but about deliberately staying away from the thread), although they don't change the big picture in my view.

I voted mainly to spur discussion, but it seems the discussion is between me and you. I'd like others to participate before I say more.

[Tamuz]

unvote: N_lich

Because that s going nowhere, still feel hes is suspect.

vote: Alexander

He seems to be reaching alot

[chaotic_diablo]

Alexander accuses Meme of random votes based who based them on little evidence and attacking people who she doesn't believe are scum. Followed by that, Meme claims that her votes were her best guesses and don't necessarily reflect her full opinion. Her opinion can change due to the circumstances. Both seem to agree that day one has little evidence to go on.

@Tamuz, could you explain how Alexander is reaching alot? It does seem that way, but I can't argue that Meme hasn't been doing something smiliar.

I think having a vote out there is just a habit of insecurity. Then again, not voting could mean the same thing.

[Adele]

Alexander hasn't said much that I havn't thought. What he added makes sense to me. I was gearing up to suspect her then got the impression it was her "style" but now, I'm starting to think it's her gambit.

Vote: MeMe

; she didn't seem that worried about one vote, I doubt a second will freak her out either.

[MeMe]

Certainly doesn't freak me out, but it does make me change my mind once again about who should be voted.

unvote: Talitha
vote: Adele

You'd been riding me over nothing you hadn't done yourself -- backing off rather fast ("no longer desperate to have [me] explain") when a few others agreed with me. Last time you posted, it was to say you thought I was "okayish" -- not that you still had your eye on me or anything, but that you now believed that you needn't distrust me and that we simply disagree with one another "a lot." One person votes me (and has since backed off a tad since I responded well and corrected some of his case) and you hop on with "he didn't say anything I haven't thought." Basically, you hauled me up to the front of the class early without voting me...got no support...said "I think she's alright now"...and only put your vote where your mouth is (was...then wasn't...now is again, that is) once Alexander did it first.

Either your last post was bull or the current one is. Either way, I'll be surprised if someone more suspicious pops up today.

[Alexander]

One person votes me (and has since backed off a tad since I responded well and corrected some of his case)

I had not backed down, and you had not corrected any significant part of my case. I said "you accused Talitha of being dishonest about X", and you said "No, I accused her of being dishonest about Y". While I concede that X and Y are different, it still has no bearing toward my conclusion.

Either way, I'll be surprised if someone more suspicious pops up today.

I won't. Someone more suspicious pops up all the time, it's the nature of the game.

[MeMe]

Fair enough.

[Adele]

I was starting to distrust you. Then, I thought "eh, it can be chalked up to her style". Alexander's PBPA put things in a new light that solidified the stuff that gave me pause, but I'd not put my finger on. Now, I distrust you.

I hope this progression makes sense to people - I think it'd be foolish to have the attitude "never back off tentative suspicions".

[Pariah]

Pariah:You're still not increabily scummy to me, but you in my opinion our best lead. What I mean is, you havn't convinced me your not pro-town though I'm not quite sure your scum either.

Fair enough, I suppose. Any particular points you'd like to go over again though, or questions?

I see Talitha is back. Yay.

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm not really "sold" on anyone so far, but I definately don't like this comment, as others have said by Alex: "I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum." Human beings make errors, and it's perfectly natural to accuse someone to get a reaction or simply be wrong about someone. "Striking gold" doesn't always happen, and you don't even know for sure if everyone on that list is really a citizen/unscummy. It's just your

opinion

that they are unscummy.

As for Adele/MeMe, I simply would like to see more discussion as of now.