268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:08 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Lich: So I'm scummy for voting, but I'm also scummy for unvoting? Well then I guess I can't win! I was showing that I am willing to work with the town (a sign of good faith) by waiting though I still do slightly suspect Tamuz.
(As if a second vote on someone that no one else seems interested in persuing rihgt now anyways means much)

You noticed I never recanted my suspcion. I didn't apollogize and say "sorry". The second vote comment, while I felt is meaningless gave me the impression that she though me too hurried.

I WILL vote on her again if she: A.)Does something to strengthen my beleif that she is scum or B.)Nothing happens for quite a while and we have no other leads

But for now
FOS: lich


You can paste on whatever motivation you like to think it was.
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:52 am

Post by broomhead »

I'd kinda like to do an unofficial vote count, but I'd like to have it done to kinda recheck the mod's. and i am not purposefully "forgetting" someone, so if i miss someone, let me know, and we'll fix it.

Vote for:_________Voter:__________Post #:

Broomhead__-1-___ Talitha__________#40
Pariah______-2-____MeMe+Fritzler____#74+#94
N_Lich______-1-____Tamuz__________#84
Foolster41___-1-____N_Lich__________#98

I think the two posts of unvoting Mr. Mod missed were #85 + #91. Tell me if I am wrong.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:41 am

Post by Alexander »

Upon a complete re-read,
FOS Tamuz
and
FOS Foolster41
.

The former because of:
Tamuz wrote:Adele, scum don't start too many bandwagons. Through my experence when playing as scum, I have less of a licence to start and go through an entire attack phase. More on less I just snowballed as scum. Which leads me to believe town are actually allowed to be more aggressive than scum because the scum need to hide.
Basically, he seems to be preparing an alibi for himself to be agressive. Still,
could be
a townie over-generalizing the scum behavior.

The latter, because of voting for no reason other than tagging along with Meme, then hopping off when the wagon failed to gain speed.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:18 am

Post by vIQleS »

Correct and Undisputable Vote Count:

broomhead - 1 - (Talitha)
Foolster41 - 1 - (N_lich)
N_lich - 1 - (Tamuz)
Pariah - 2 - (Fritzler, MeMe)
Tamuz - 1 - (Adele)

Not Voting - (Alexander, broomhead, chaotic_diablo, Foolster41, Pariah)

6 to lynch
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[b]Cassanova:[/b] I'd rather challange it to the bone!

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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:27 am

Post by Adele »

I'd like to officially
unvote
Tamuz. I no longer suspect him overmuch.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 10:46 am

Post by Foolster41 »

Alaxander:
NO reason? I think I had a good reason, or at least a desent one. What Meme said made sense, and I think still does.

AS for the rest, Read my post at the top of this page. I replied to this same thing when Lich said it.

I admit maybe I was a little too quick, mostly it's my impaitence to get some more information and get the game going. (As I said before, I hate slow games)

I don't understand it. I put a second vote on someone, I'm FOS'd but I see nothing on fritz who put a second vote with about as much a post as me when I voted.
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:47 am

Post by N_lich »

Tamuz wrote:If YOU would like me to say what I found suspcous about Broomhead ASK ME.
N_lich wrote:I would like to hear why Tamuz was considering voting broomhead.
I already have, I want to see if this is an issue anyone else is interested in. I would especially like to hear from Adele, who raised the topic initially, but seems to have changed her mind on the issue.

@Foolster41:
I would personally expect a town player, if they agreed with a point made against someone, not to unvote simply due to threat of an OMGUS. Your apparent concern to avoid attracting one is what I find scummy.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:56 am

Post by Adele »

N_lich wrote:I would especially like to hear from Adele, who raised the topic initially, but seems to have changed her mind on the issue.
I'm still vaguely curious, but the game has moved on, Tamuz has moved on, and others are tweaking me more.

If you wanna keep pushing Tamuz for an explanation, fine. I don't object, but nor do I feel like supporting you. It's yesterday's news, but harmless.
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:47 pm

Post by Pariah »

Foolster41 wrote:I simply thought MeMe had a good point. Just because a "firestarter" can get caught doing it, doesn't mean they will if they are sneaky enough, or try if they think they are.
I would hardly call what I was doing "sneaky." I'm rather blunt and straightforward.
Foolster41 wrote:Second vote means very little IMO. I would have just FOSed with a warning to vote if you already had two.
It's not even really the whole second vote thing that I found that scummy. More like the instant tagging along with MeMe that had nothing more than "I agree here is my vote."

More after I finish up homework. The joys of procrastination of high school education. I always treat assignments as if tomorrow never will come, and I'll never have to turn them in.
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:39 pm

Post by MeMe »

I'm still pretty happy with my vote -- just in case anyone thought I merely wasn't paying attention.
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:37 pm

Post by Foolster41 »

Foolster41 wrote:
I simply thought MeMe had a good point. Just because a "firestarter" can get caught doing it, doesn't mean they will if they are sneaky enough, or try if they <b>think</b> they are.

I would hardly call what I was doing "sneaky." I'm rather blunt and straightforward.
Well. I don't know you. My phase was a little badly worded, but what I mean is: If you're good, you just might get away with it. and if not, you might think you and try it anyway.
t's not even really the whole second vote thing that I found that scummy. More like the instant tagging along with MeMe that had nothing more than "I agree here is my vote."
I'm begining to see the cry for "ADD SOMETHING OR DIE" to votes as something of a fallacy.
Not eveyrone's going to be able to expound on a idea that someone else has come up with. If it's already said, what more can be said?

With that, I think Pariah hasn't really convinced me much and I'll
revote: Pariah
.
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:49 pm

Post by Talitha »

My home internet is down and I dont know when it will be back.

Hesitant to put a 4th on Pariah at this time, only 'cause I may not be able to check back very soon for reactions.
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:58 pm

Post by chaotic_diablo »

I don't agree with the "instant tagging along" part that Pariah mentioned. Not everyone is able to come up with their own reasons and usually the goal is to persuade others that a certain person is scum. It would be too troublesome if everyone had to come up with a new reason to place their vote. However, if someone does it repeatedly without at least providing something to the town, then there's an exception.

I don't understand what "firestarter" portion of the argument. Someone please summarize or something.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:19 am

Post by Alexander »

Foolster41 wrote: I'm begining to see the cry for "ADD SOMETHING OR DIE" to votes as something of a fallacy.
Or a healthy metagame consideration. After all, if everyone is allowed to bandwagon and tag along with no negative reprecussions, it only makes the scum job much easier.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:41 am

Post by chaotic_diablo »

Alexander wrote:
Foolster41 wrote: I'm begining to see the cry for "ADD SOMETHING OR DIE" to votes as something of a fallacy.
Or a healthy metagame consideration. After all, if everyone is allowed to bandwagon and tag along with no negative reprecussions, it only makes the scum job much easier.
That's using circular logic. Pariah has already implied this, you shouldn't use this as an argument against a defense that is already trying to refute the same idea. Please come up with a different reason.
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:51 pm

Post by Pariah »

Foolster41 wrote:Well. I don't know you. My phase was a little badly worded, but what I mean is: If you're good, you just might get away with it. and if not, you might think you and try it anyway.
That makes more sense. Still, people do go back and read the thread. And they will see a stance someone had, even if they didn't vote for someone. How am I going to get away from making a statement that someone is scummy or did scummy behavior? It'll always be there to be examined. My stance on a certain subject isn't going to vanish, and can be used against me at all times.
Foolster wrote:I'm begining to see the cry for "ADD SOMETHING OR DIE" to votes as something of a fallacy.
Not eveyrone's going to be able to expound on a idea that someone else has come up with. If it's already said, what more can be said?
Let's look at what you said one post after MeMe's, before anyone else had commented on it.
Foolster wrote:That sounds good to me. vote: Parrah
Now, at this point, no one else had examined MeMe's statement. In fact, let's look at MeMe's post again too.
MeMe wrote:I voted Pariah based on a quick re-read. In his three posts (excluding the pre-game one) it looks like he's encouraging suspicion broadly without committing to a favorite...as though he'll be ready to join any bandwagon without being the leader (not the first vote) or a follower (already expressed suspicion).

Enough for a vote.
There's nothing you have to contribute that, or go over? I didn't see anything so damning in that post it was irrefutable and there was nothing to say or discuss. I brought up my own opinion/counterpoint against it. You obviously are not me, and I don't expect you to put up a "counterpoint" or defend me against it, but there's nothing more to say about the subject than "Sounds good to me?"

Why not go over what I said and who accused, and see if it was actually correct? Why not try to point out something I was wrong about it? List examples of times someone tried to do a behavior like my own and was scum? Even add minor points to what MeMe's already said?

There was more to be said or go over. Exhaustive research isn't required, but you can add more than "sounds good to me, vote" to a post. You also were even the first person to post after MeMe, which gave you even more room to go over things.

Voting and saying "I agree" is scummy also in the fact it allows you to simply not express your own opinon or attack
toward
someone else's behavior. It's a lot harder to anaylze someone's posts when they don't express their own opinions and use others.
Foolster wrote:With that, I think Pariah hasn't really convinced me much and I'll
revote: Pariah
.
Foolster wrote:I simply thought MeMe had a good point. Just because a "firestarter" can get caught doing it, doesn't mean they will if they are sneaky enough, or try if they think they are.

Second vote means very little IMO. I would have just FOSed with a warning to vote if you already had two.

I don't really see a big difference between the meaning of what meme quoted and what you quoted. You had a small suspicon, and voted on it. Just as I'm doing for you.
MeMe (Quoting Tamaz): "not incredibly scummy"
Tamuz: And so I think you're the most suspicious guy on the block. Not incredibly scummy, but sufficiently for me to vote.

<i>You're not incredibly scummy in my eyes, but the only one the remotest bit scummy so far. though your point about rushing is well taken. I suppose I can wait. unvote</i>
That was a quick change of opinion. First I go from "not incredibly scummy" to be "unable to convince you" of being town aligned. Nothing has changed except that I said voting with an "I agree" post is scummy, which you disagreed with, and I posted a counterargument I believe refutes that.
Fritzler wrote:Pariah = total baller.
But still.
unvote, vote: Pariah
I lol'd. Still, I personally don't like votes with no public backing, and sort of like in the Foolster "case," find it scummy not explain why you did things. Can you explain further your reasoning here?
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:40 am

Post by MeMe »

unvote: Pariah
vote: Talitha
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:42 am

Post by Adele »

MeMe wrote:
unvote: Pariah
vote: Talitha
I thought you were happy with your vote.
MeMe, post 109, wrote:I'm still pretty happy with my vote -- just in case anyone thought I merely wasn't paying attention.
Since that post, Talitha's spoken once
Talitha wrote:My home internet is down and I dont know when it will be back.

Hesitant to put a 4th on Pariah at this time, only 'cause I may not be able to check back very soon for reactions.
What was it about this that made you suspicious?
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:05 am

Post by Alexander »

Well, not to speak on behalf of MeMe, but Talitha's post was mildly scummy. It has an air of "oh, I would like to vote, but I'm afraid it will go on my permanent record, so I'll just talk about voting".

Is it scummy enough for a vote? To each his own criteria, I guess...
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:11 am

Post by MeMe »

Adele -- really. It's usually best to let the person being voted question the vote OR wait to see who seems worried about it if no explanation is offered.

But, regardless, this one
should
be obvious to anyone with any research ability whatsoever, so I'll just go ahead and say why.

1) She said she didn't have access and has now told every other thread in which she posted limited access that she's back EXCEPT for this one.
2) Before she left, she made it sound as though she wanted to vote Pariah but wasn't doing so only because she wouldn't have access
3) She now has access but hasn't returned here ONLY -- and still isn't voting Pariah
4) That says, to me, that she doesn't want to vote Pariah for some reason. More likely that reason involves her being scum than him being scum, in my opinion.

Add the above to the fact that she's been uncharacteristically quiet, and she's my new favorite

And just because I was happy with a vote at one time doesn't mean I'm going to be happy with it forever -- surely you see how ridiculous it is to insinuate otherwise. I do read the thread and willingly change my mind based on what is/isn't there. Anyone who doesn't do that is just playing poorly.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:26 am

Post by Alexander »

MeMe wrote: 1) She said she didn't have access and has now told every other thread in which she posted limited access that she's back EXCEPT for this one.
Can you give specifics please? What other games is Talitha in? If this is true, it does look bad for her.... "Lynch all liars" indeed....
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:28 am

Post by Fritzler »

Well, here in bad luck she said she was back:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#281435
And here in Worst Role Evar
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#281421
Here in berry kingdom:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... ht=#281419

In all three of those games she posted that she would be away
Surfs up dude.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:31 am

Post by MeMe »

I just periodically click the "profile" button of people who haven't been posting to see if they're posting elsewhere. Once you get to the profile page you click "find all posts by..." and it has everything they've ever posted listed last-to-first.
Remember...It's not a lie if you believe it. -- G. Costanza
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:41 am

Post by Alexander »

So, combining Talitha's posts from all 4 threads on Jan 03:
1:49 am : my home internet is down and I don't know when it will be back, so I won't vote Pariah (posted on this thread)
1:55 am : my home internet is down and I don't know how long it will take to get it fixed
2:59 am : I am back with dialup
2:56 am : woot! I'm back!
3:13 am : I am back online at home
6:24 am : A post which doesn't contain info about her Internet connection

She also made posts on Jan 03 PM, and Jan 04 AM, with no mention of Internet trouble.

Yes, it could be her hiding behind her (false?) internet trouble to avoid placing a vote, BUT, even more likely, since she's in multiple mafia games, she simply ... DRUMROLL ... has a life and forgot to check up on one of the games once her internet was restored!

Overall, I consider it minor evidence and not worthy of my vote. Your mileage may vary.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:05 am

Post by MeMe »

Obviously you must play your own game, Alexander -- but I've got a few questions for you:

1) What would you consider "major" evidence worthy of your vote (exclude cop investigation, please)?
2) Why did you say that it looked bad for her and cite "lynch all liars" only to back off of that once the examples were provided?
3) Do you think that considering behavior from past games is valid or not good practice when attempting to determine a player's current alignment?
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