1116 - Literally Anything uPick

[Ghostlin]

Leo: let me ask you this: do you see it possible in any way that Plum could be scum, but SC couldn't? Or vice versa through your trap?

CES: You seemed convinced a few days ago that Plum wasn't scum when we interrogated her at L-5; enough to day protect her, which sorta killed any scrunity. How do you feel about her now? Do you think she might be scum?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think Plum and SC are scum, yes.

[AurorusVox]

In that case,

Vote: Plum

.

Leo, do you think that your "trap" caught them both equally?

[Plum]

Ghost:

1. I know the question looks pointless, but there is a method to my madness.

CES:

1. I thought that it was plausible, especially in a setup apt to have more complex/obscure role in, that the message I was sent had been copied from a message sent between players who presumably were scumbags. I had no better hypothesis than that some role interaction had caused me to receive scum communication. Hell, if someone submitted as a role someone who pioneered wiretapping techniques, this could easily be a role resolution. I had no reason to think that such a role/interaction in this game was less likely than anything else specifically.

2. Rolenames aren't always descriptive? Possibly, but I'm fairly certain that if a scumbag had read his Role PM well enough to summarize it to the Mod as was required he'd be aware of whether or not the scum had Daytalk or not and be surprised by completely anonymous communication he wasn't expecting. Basically, under what circumstances would scum be expected to respond to an anonymous message asking if he wanted to be bussed with a direct reply - given that the player wouldn't know who asked him if he wanted to be bussed anyway? If he doesn't know who 'I' is when asked 'should I bus you'.

AV -

1.

She does make a good point about Chronopie though, if Plum/SC are town, then their reactions are honest, but probably confusing for Leo if he's town. I'm wondering if Chronopie is scum capitalising on a mistake.

Plum, you say your response was a gambit, playing along with the message to see what happened. But scum would know you had received their message by your smiley, and since they would know you weren't their partner, your gambit was impotent. What were you hoping to achieve?

Seeing if any scum panicked, thinking I had seen their communication and/or knew anything else about them because of it.

Also: Plum, you said you thought you might have intercepted the message, or it may have been sent by accident. The first seems a leap of logic. As far as the second, and SC, you thought this too; did you not think it would be wise to alert the mod if you thought an error had occurred? I think its more likely that the flavour of one of the scum's roles could be interpreted as a messaging role, and that lubricated the falling into the trap.

Flavor with the message implied that I suddenly had this flash of knowledge in my mind - it sounded like this was something where intentionally I wasn't expecting it or whatnot but got sent to me anyway. I didn't think an error had occured; I thought that Mod had it down right and I'd gotten a message addressed to scum, possibly copied to me as it was sent via the Mod.

How reasonable do you think it is that this was, in your words, a 'mistake'? How is this confusing for Leo if he's Town over Townies who are Town and hearing about it now?

Zodiark - If you're going to respond, an actual response would be nice.


Leo:

1. When I tried to decide whether to try to provoke a response with a question or a smiley I chose smiley but to try to increase scum confusion and provoke a response I followed it with a question. Shot in the dark I thought I'd ask a question of SC to get in the question, and if I got a response I might ask him if he was expecting to see smileys in posting in general. Naturally if this was set up by you as an attempt to make a trap the question would be meaningless, as it was designed to be one which would draw out any sort of reaction from whoever might know about the message, the player presumably being scum sending messages during the Day.

2. I wanted to see if I could use this message, which I'd assumed had possibly been copied to me when it was sent from one player to the other, to find out who sent it/if anyone else received it. Best way I could think of was putting down a smiley and seeing if anyone behaved differently.

3. Question to you: How do you expect a Townie would respond to this sort of anonymous message and/or can you think of any alternate Townie-reactions, either before your power-use or now?

4. Yes. There are mixed (and some scummy) reactions re: the trap. This is typical. You, however, very strongly believe that your guess is correct.

[Zodiark13]

Zodiark - If you're going to respond, an actual response would be nice.

Nice attempt to dodge. Failed mind, but still nice.

I would still like to see Pwer hang today, but Leo has made sure that thats not happening. Plus, the case is quite conclusive.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Plum

[Leo]

Leo: let me ask you this: do you see it possible in any way that Plum could be scum, but SC couldn't? Or vice versa through your trap?

Leo nods.

Leo may well be Town suffering from a mighty ego/confirmation bias complex.

Leo quotes this for truth. Leo points at themself then at the evidence they have presented. Then waves their hands around at everyone and taps their heads to show that Leo is relying on the rest of the town to judge how conclusive the provided evidence is.

Leo draws a picture of their own best conclusion, with Plum and StrangerCoug as likely scum. Leo hands everyone a piece of paper on which to draw their own conclusion.

[Ghostlin]

If Plum's scum, then I can see Leo being cleared, but they're on opposite alignments, I can tell you that.

This is cruddy logic. Unless you're positive which alignments they're on. I like the Powerrox, Plum, and SC lynches, but right now, I'm like SC for this post most of all: this seems like a scum misdirect to setup lynches on a presumption that isn't true: If Plum's town, Leo MUST be scum. They could both be town, or Leo found a way to bus a scumpartner while misdirecting from another. (Much less likely.) This is just bad juju.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: This shouldn't be needed, but if it is, I meant,

unvote

;

Vote: StrangerCoug

[AurorusVox]

How reasonable do you think it is that this was, in your words, a 'mistake'? How is this confusing for Leo if he's Town over Townies who are Town and hearing about it now?

PlumScum/LeoTown >>> PlumTown/LeoTown* > PlumTown/LeoScum

*this would be the "mistake." I put it as more likely than LeoScum because the gambit strikes me as townish.

As for the potential for confusion: If you're town, LeoTown would know his intentions were pure, and so see nefarious subterfuge in your reactions, i.e. I don't blame him for thinking you're both scum. It's basically me saying that PlumTown does not mean LeoScum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

1. I thought that it was plausible, especially in a setup apt to have more complex/obscure role in, that the message I was sent had been copied from a message sent between players who presumably were scumbags. I had no better hypothesis than that some role interaction had caused me to receive scum communication. Hell, if someone submitted as a role someone who pioneered wiretapping techniques, this could easily be a role resolution. I had no reason to think that such a role/interaction in this game was less likely than anything else specifically.

You said your assumption was redirect earlier, not copy. Nice backtracking. Copy wouldn't've been a crazy assumption, but in that case posting that response would've been a silly misplay. Don't try to sneak this one by me. CONFESS.

2. Rolenames aren't always descriptive? Possibly, but I'm fairly certain that if a scumbag had read his Role PM well enough to summarize it to the Mod as was required he'd be aware of whether or not the scum had Daytalk or not and be surprised by completely anonymous communication he wasn't expecting. Basically, under what circumstances would scum be expected to respond to an anonymous message asking if he wanted to be bussed with a direct reply - given that the player wouldn't know who asked him if he wanted to be bussed anyway? If he doesn't know who 'I' is when asked 'should I bus you'.

I'm talking about what in this case would be SC's role name. Details of his role wouldn't be in your role PM. The latter question is valid, but not that convincing (e.g. I can easily imagine you two being a 2-man scum group or SC having a suggestive role name).

Seeing if any scum panicked, thinking I had seen their communication and/or knew anything else about them because of it.

Name one concrete thing that scum panicking would've entailed. I wouldn't expect that to work.

[Plum]

Zodiark - If you're going to respond, an actual response would be nice.

Nice attempt to dodge. Failed mind, but still nice.

I would still like to see Pwer hang today, but Leo has made sure that thats not happening. Plus, the case is quite conclusive.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Plum

No, seriously. Unless you sincerely believe that only scum would attempt to explain why he's not scum like that, respond as such. If you

do

believe that, I guess it would be nice to understand why.

@CES:

I figured that some sort of scum message went awry and was either redirected at me or copied to me unbeknownst to the scum.

I explicitly noted copied as one of the possibilities that occured to me.

Name one concrete thing that scum panicking would've entailed. I wouldn't expect that to work.

Any fixation on that post of mine, noticing the smiley at all in the thread (and especially attacking it or questioning it), behaving towards me differently than before after my post with no either explicitly regarding that post/for no well explained reason (e.g. if I'd been under mild suspicion from a player directly before that post and there was a sudden shift either towards attacking me harder or ignoring me more - or if a player had been ignoring me and suddenly became interested in me either way). Any of these would be reason for me to look into the possibility that that player was the scumbag to whom the message was directed. Is it the most brilliant gambit? I suddenly had information - or so I thought - directly from scumbags. But I lacked an easy way to determine to whom it was directed or who sent it, and this was the approach to making any use of it that I came up with.

[StrangerCoug]

If Plum's scum, then I can see Leo being cleared, but they're on opposite alignments, I can tell you that.

Why do you say this?

Leo is trying to kill two birds with one stone (read—get people to agree to either two mislynches or a lynch and a misvig). I still lean town on you, but I do see how you could be the acid test; most people don't start their posts with a smiley.

For a moment, I thought I got that PM through mod error, so I ignored it. Now that you've outed yourself by trying to take us down with loaded questions supposedly to each other, I feel... There are no words for this. I'm willing to sacrifice myself just to show how ineffective and scummy this gambit is.

How is it scummy?

See above.

As far as the second, and SC, you thought this too; did you not think it would be wise to alert the mod if you thought an error had occurred? I think its more likely that the flavour of one of the scum's roles could be interpreted as a messaging role, and that lubricated the falling into the trap.

In hindsight, yeah, it would have been best to double-check with the mod and ask to make sure I was indeed supposed to receive it. I did spend a good 45 seconds or so thinking "What the fudge is this for?"

If Plum's scum, then I can see Leo being cleared, but they're on opposite alignments, I can tell you that.

This is cruddy logic. Unless you're positive which alignments they're on. I like the Powerrox, Plum, and SC lynches, but right now, I'm like SC for this post most of all: this seems like a scum misdirect to setup lynches on a presumption that isn't true: If Plum's town, Leo MUST be scum. They could both be town, or Leo found a way to bus a scumpartner while misdirecting from another. (Much less likely.) This is just bad juju.

I'm pretty gosh darn positive. Could I be wrong? Yes, and that would spell disaster. I'm solid, though.

[Doombunny9]

I am back from my V/LA and will make a catch-up post soon.

[Doombunny9]

All you know is that I posted "Dayprotect: Plum". You don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

I understand that part but WHY did you protect Plum. This has nothing with your role...You know what, forget it, I may be accidentally rolefishing and I'm basically chasing a lost cause anyway. Be warned, if you claim in the future and your role doesn't support your reasoning for not explaining you, I will be on you so hard...

First of all, I happen to be under the impression that there is some degree of opportunistic bandwagoning inherent in Zodiark's vote. In any case, his specification (I paraphrase) 'especially with several votes on Ghost already' regarding Leo's vote looking like intentional bandwagoning is hypocritical given that Leo had more votes on him at the time of Zodiark's vote than Ghost did at the time of Leo's vote. A concern about throwing votes on someone who has many votes is hypocritical to some degree when combined with a vote on someone who has even more votes on him already.

This isn't hypocricy. Hypocricy is when you do something you beleive is wrong (Or in the case of mafia, voting/FoSing someone for reasons that you yourself do). The thing is, Zodiark wasn't voting Leo because Leo voted someone with "a lot". He was doing it because he thought Leo was throwing votes around wildly.

In fact: /claim bus driver

...

Well I don't buy the claim of hacker = Busdriver

Why would a hacker be able to change the positions of two people.

Well I don't buy that you've been reading the thread seeing as how power gave flavor that makes good sense.

@Leo post 203-Fuck yes

Leo draws a picture of their own best conclusion, with Plum and StrangerCoug as likely scum. Leo hands everyone a piece of paper on which to draw their own conclusion.

Doombunny draws a picture of Plum and SC getting pwned...In the face.

Unvote, Vote: Plum

The only thing stopping me from voting her anyway was CES's protect which we now know doesn't work on lynches.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I explicitly noted copied as one of the possibilities that occured to me.

Hmm, yes. Looking back you didn't commit to redirection, specifically, I should've checked that.

Any fixation on that post of mine, noticing the smiley at all in the thread (and especially attacking it or questioning it), behaving towards me differently than before after my post with no either explicitly regarding that post/for no well explained reason (e.g. if I'd been under mild suspicion from a player directly before that post and there was a sudden shift either towards attacking me harder or ignoring me more - or if a player had been ignoring me and suddenly became interested in me either way).

Attacking a smiley? Really? You also seem to be ignoring that scum would, upon learning or suspecting that you had intercepted sensitive information, try not to signal to you that that post was significant to them.

Leo is trying to kill two birds with one stone (read—get people to agree to either two mislynches or a lynch and a misvig). I still lean town on you, but I do see how you could be the acid test; most people don't start their posts with a smiley.

?? If either of you and Plum turn up town, there wouldn't be any specific reason to kill the other.

[StrangerCoug]

Hence the word "trying".

[VasudeVa]

Vote Count 1.6.

Players still alive and voting!

AurorousVox [L-7]
PowerRox93 [L-6] - AntB,
Zodiark13 [L-7]
Chronopie [L-6] - Plum,
AntB [L-7] -
Ghostlin [L-6] - Framm 18,

Plum [L-3] - Chronopie, AurorusVox, Zodiark13, Doombunny9

Zang [L-7] -
Framm 18 [L-7] -
StrangerCoug [L-4] - Cogito Ergo Sum, Leo, Ghostlin
Cogito Ergo Sum [L-7] -
Doombunny9 [L-7] -
Leo [L-6]- StrangerCoug

Not Voting: PowerRox93, Zang

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to Lynch

D1's Deadline is at Feb 21, 2010. The countdown can be viewed here

Battousai replaces Framm 18.

Welcome him.

[Plum]

Doombunny9 - It's clear that we disagree re: whether Zodiark's vote had any inherent hypocrisy. The backing-up reasons for

why

he voted Leo were strongly related to the manner in which he voted, that is, easily placing a vote on a large wagon. There was a level of hypocrisy there which increased the impression of scummy opportunism I have in that voting act.

Please give a moment to comment on Leo's 'trap' and why you believe in it so hard, and what your reaction might be should SC or I flip Town, both regarding the other and regarding Leo. Thanks.

Any fixation on that post of mine, noticing the smiley at all in the thread (and especially attacking it or questioning it), behaving towards me differently than before after my post with no either explicitly regarding that post/for no well explained reason (e.g. if I'd been under mild suspicion from a player directly before that post and there was a sudden shift either towards attacking me harder or ignoring me more - or if a player had been ignoring me and suddenly became interested in me either way).

Attacking a smiley? Really? You also seem to be ignoring that scum would, upon learning or suspecting that you had intercepted sensitive information, try not to signal to you that that post was significant to them.

The hope was that some behavior change would be noticeable - in part because I tried to leave it ambiguous whether or not more information than the bare phrase had been intercepted. For all I thought the scum knew they might be worried that if I knew about the message I knew about something else - when the message was sent, or possibly to/from whom it was sent (or that I might have a guess to that effect) - in which case they might change their behavior for those reasons. Additionally, in a game of information/reaction - the very nature of Mafia - it might be hard for them to react as if it had no meaning to them completely, if it had any meaning to them. Was it a brilliant plan? No. Was it the idea I came up with out of a desire to use this information as best I could to find scum? Yes.

L-what am I at

[Chronopie]

I'm convinced we've found Plum-Scum.

So I'll give time for Batt to read over the thread, then we can finish lynching her. k? k.

[AntB]

@Plum

Guess who was wondering who sent that message and trying to reason out who could've sent it? I figured that some sort of scum message went awry and was either redirected at me or copied to me unbeknownst to the scum.

So either your role lets you eavesdrop on scum, we have a day redirector (lol) or you slipped...

You also never asked SC that question Plum...

VOTE: Plum [L-2]

[Plum]

Oh, you too, Chrono. Please tell me why you're setting up lynches and equating me-Town with Leo scum, given that you both have the same material to work with regarding his gambit and the reactions thereto. And why you'd mention that if you're so sure I'm scum. And in general what you got from the trap and if you've even read anything I have said in response.

KTHX

PREVIEW EDIT:

So either your role lets you eavesdrop on scum, we have a day redirector (lol) or you slipped...

Can you not conceive of a role or mechanic which would send a copy of a PM to a recipient other than the one intended, and/or copy it? What would you think if you received out of the blue a message like the one I received?

It's clear what the hell happened that I got a message. Leo sent it to me in an attempt at a gambit. I tried to make sense of the event and came up with that as a plausible answer, or the most plausible I could see. It's clear now we don't (necessarily) have a role/mechanic which would allow PM-interception/copying, but I reacted to the message as I saw it.

Point two, have you read at all my responses or not? I doubt you have; I addressed what my question to SC would've been and why it's no longer relevant. Given that you haven't read that, I am under the impression that you've read very little in the way of my responses and are opportunistically jumping on this wagon in a distinctly scummy manner.

[Ghostlin]

Guys, use some logic here before we end up with more than the mislynches we could expect from this:

If Plum flips Town, it doesn't mean Leo is Scum. It also doesn't mean SC is Town.
If SC flips Town, it doesn't mean Leo is Scum. It also doesn't mean Plum is Town.
If Leo flips Town, it doesn't mean SC or Plum are Scum.
If SC flips Scum, we cannot confirm if Plum is Scum or not by that alone, and it only makes Leo

MORE LIKELY

to be Town.
If Plum flips Scum, we cannot confirm if SC is Scum or not by that alone, and it only makes Leo

MORE LIKELY

to be Town.

Please, look at all three of their play. Take the trap for what you will, it was a gutsy gambit, but don't walk into the crap logic trap before we have three dead bodies. Thank you.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: 'three dead bodies'='three dead town bodies.'

Also, I will start voting for people who continue to use this logic as a basis for arguments. Autobahns are not evil.

[StrangerCoug]

Thanks, Ghostlin. I needed that hit in the head.

UNVOTE: Leo and VOTE: Powerrox93 like I had it then.

[VasudeVa]

Zang has been prodded.

Question to the players: Are the prod mechanics too strict?