Mini 1113 - Brotherhood of the Wolf Mafia

[Mariyta]

That hurt my head. I'm going to have to read it again tomorrow when I'm more awake, I think.

[UncertainKitten]

That's the cliffs notes version of the early part of the game. I assure you the actual game made my head hurt a lot worse.

[Untrod Tripod]

@UK, is your vote based on the early game, or did you just not feel like posting about later parts?

Also, while I'm quoting, "I still think Mariyta is town, but there's finally a chink in the town armor. " reads REALLY WEIRD. And scummy. Why are you looking for "chinks in town armor"?

Because you can't be completely confident in your town reads, so you should be continuing to analyze players for scummy behavior even if you're pretty sure they're town. How is it scummy to not assume that you know people's alignments?

[UncertainKitten]

It's the way you phrased it, UT. Chinks in town armor looks like you want a reason to suspect someone because you don't like the idea of obv townies going around. It's a narrow line.

Also, I said that, not Mari.

Anyway, my votes and scum picks are based on the first 14 pages of this game. I literally can't read anymore without my brain dying. I MAY try to tackle more later, but I think I'll just leave it at that and modify my reads as the game goes on. To be fair, I ALSO don't remember anything happening that would change my reads by a whole lot.

[AlmasterGM]

Ugh, this game keeps getting pushed back. Post coming by tomorrow afternoon (possibly tonight, depending).

[Untrod Tripod]

it was just supposed to be a poetic turn of phrase, but I can see where you get that distinction.

either way, what it was intended to mean was what I said in 1077

it was a vig shot, not a vote. And also I wanted their to be a town consensus on the vig kill.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but are you just deliberately misreading this game? I told you what my problem with that was.

[Untrod Tripod]

also, @UK, post 303 was a continuation of post 218. My reads hadn't changed at that point.

also, I don't think it's entirely fair to have your reads be based on a reread up to page 15, but whatever

[UncertainKitten]

Day one tends to say a lot about people's motivations. And let me put it this way. The three I named? They're so bad I'm not sure I COULD be convinced otherwise. You just...it's almost impossible to be that bad at being town.

[GreyICE]

AGM claimed some fucking voodoo garbage cleared Zang. I wasn't there for this, but on a general scale from 1-10 where 1 is "enough not to make him the day 1 lynch" and 10 is "Mod-confirmed town" how good was that?

[GhostWriter]

Literally a 5.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, fuck, right, I forgot about that! The neighbor thing with PM timing. Zang is so bad that I am willing to disregard that, honestly.

[GreyICE]

Ugh. On the one hand, I want Zang alive at LyLo like I want red hot needles shoved under my fingernails.

On the other hand, I'd rather lynch scum. Some of my stronger scumreads have spent the last two days fucking sniping at Zang, and while that could be bussing, it could be their 'easy target.' I have this visual of us lynching Zang, having him flip town, then having the fucking town lynch AGM at some point because neighbors are 'always town-scum' and listening to scum laughing all the way to the win.

If Mina or another strong townread who was there is willing to tell me 'fuck that noise, it wasn't very convincing, vote Zang' I can be persuaded to switch my vote, but I'm thinking this is a lynch on fucking terribad town.

[UncertainKitten]

GI, if ANYONE in this town tries to outguess the mod on neighbors, I am SO going to be pissed. That'd be utterly dicktarded.

And you don't trust me, GI? That's nice to know.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say specifically what it was so you can decide though...

Just where do you stand on me, GI? That's never been particularly CLEAR, you see.

[AlmasterGM]

Working on a post.

When it hits, it is going to ROCK your socks off.

[GreyICE]

GI, if ANYONE in this town tries to outguess the mod on neighbors, I am SO going to be pissed. That'd be utterly dicktarded.

And you don't trust me, GI? That's nice to know.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say specifically what it was so you can decide though...

Just where do you stand on me, GI? That's never been particularly CLEAR, you see.

I thought you were scum day 1. Then I thought you were town. Now? I still think town, but Zang being your vote of the three was like... what? You had an entire case on StrangerCoug built day 1. And guess what? Since then he's hard claimed "copy editor," "totally incomprehensible," and "really fucking prickly." Woohoo. LMP has done jack shit except lurk, try to get CooLDoG to vig you lamely, tunnel you lamely, and lurk. Zang has just done fucking jack shit and fucking scummily too. Every time someone calls him on it he lazily fucking nips at them a bit and then yells at someone random and goes back to lurking. And frankly Tripod seems to be trying to throw suspicion on everyone EXCEPT you, who he fucking scumbuddies pretty much most of day 1. "Superbusser" for Tripod? He puts little disclaimers before half his reads going "well, this is probably wrong or something, teehee" while doing his day 1 lists.

I'm finding a lot wrong with the analysis, which is why I want an unbiased third party. GhostWriter is probably town, but he reads more null than town to me, and frankly I trust Mina's opinion.

I'm ready to have my socks knocked off by AGM.

[GreyICE]

To be more specific, of the four of those, I have no fucking reason to think any is town EXCEPT Zang. And that one actually seemed pretty concrete. So the vote on him is like... okay.

[Untrod Tripod]

And frankly Tripod seems to be trying to throw suspicion on everyone EXCEPT you, who he fucking scumbuddies pretty much most of day 1. "Superbusser" for Tripod? He puts little disclaimers before half his reads going "well, this is probably wrong or something, teehee" while doing his day 1 lists.

That's just patently untrue.

[CooLDoG]

Creamy chicken.

@GW, already explained. Bad reactions, wishy washy votes, etc.

I hope you're not using standards from your own play to discern "good" from "bad".

If you want to talk about wishy-washy, how about how you treated your daykill yesterday? That's a hell of a lot more damning than me being on a couple of wagons for a couple of legitimately scummy players on D1. Supporting a couple of different lynches isn't scummy.

I basically had two-three options. I wanted the town to have a say in the vig. I pressured one person to see how they reacted. I then floated a few possibilities to the town. If that's wishy washy when every unvote is. And those legitimately scummy players always happened to be one of the largest wagon. You have never created any content by yourself. UT would also be a good vote.

I want a little pressure on zang just so he is forced to post more. I'm not sure its worth a lynch though. I have the same reason as ICE about us lynching zang.

[CooLDoG]

edit: because of the neighbor deal.

[Mariyta]

I'd be fine with a Zang lynch. I didn't see this supposedly convincing evidence and GW seems to think it's a null. Zang's play has been absolute shite and he doesn't argue otherwise. So UT or Zang are good lynches for today.

[UncertainKitten]

@GI: Fine, understandable. To be honest, I think Zang just pissed me off the most of the three I named. I mean, LMP and SC to some degree fluctuate between being absolutely terrible and occasionally making a good post. I don't think Zang has made one good post all game (and certainly not by page 14).

UT seemed to at least somewhat stick to at least two of the three names in my list, regardless of how much of a revolving door his reads had. It seemed odd to me that he'd *randomly* implicate two out of three scumbuddies. If any of my reads flips town, I'm willing to revisit UT. Preferably with a hammer.

I'm also leery of the fact all my reads *also* being on the lower end of good players, at least in this game. I think at some point I'll need to consider Mari/GW/GI/Mina. To be honest though? Even if one of you four is scum, I don't want you dead yet. That's about how bad everyone else is to me at this time, to varying degrees.

[Mina]

No time for this game right now, because I'm late for work, but this is giving me a headache. I was actually going to vote for StrangerCoug (I've been meaning to make an actual case on him), but then Zang opened his mouth and started acting like a scummy robot again. And would SC and Zang be getting into this back and forth as a scumteam? But would UT have essentially led the wagon on Zang as his buddy? I think it's time for me to reread this game and look at potential scumteams.

Right now, this is my suspect list:

Tier 1: Zang, StrangerCoug, Untrod Tripod
Tier 2: LynchMePls, GhostWriter, CooLDoG
Tier 3: UK, Mariyta, GreyICE, AlmasterGM

Mariyta took the words out of my mouth in her response to SC's and UT's posts on Friday (particularly SC's interactions with UK and UT's misrepping me as arguing "speculation is stupid").

@CooLDoG: my question wasn't role-fishing. If there was no kill, and someone had a successful roleblock, you had BETTER either work to get your target lynched, or make it so that it will be unambiguous after your flip who you targeted. Because that means we outed scum.

@GreyICE: my townread on GW was partly because on a reread, he'd developed his suspicions of CD from early on (so his attacks was less suspicious than UT's play), and partly because I'd found his angsting over his lack of reads somewhat genuine. In retrospect, I think I wouldn't put him on the same level as my other town reads (not at all as confident in him as I am the other town reads on mt list), because his posts today haven't had much thought behind them. Also, I think he came out really badly with his interactions with me (for example, "oh, Mina, would tell everyone to lynch me" came out as overdefensive when I hadn't discussed him much after a quick early game vote for a weak post just out of the RVS). I'll look at him in more depth when I have time.

Also, I'm starting to think at least one of the claimed roles is scum, because town seems to have too much firepower.

For the record, I am so confused by Grey's claim. It's like...there's scummy AKR, and then there's GI's scummy roleclaim (leaving aside that he's a governor, I find roled scum are much more likely to go, "Oh, by the way, I have a cool power, guys!", since they aren't afraid of a NK)...but GreyICE himself isn't behaving anything like I'd imagine from scum, unless he's a great actor.

GI, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but are you an alt?

[GreyICE]

Don't mind you asking at all, I'm no sort of alt. I'm not inexperienced with Mafia, I've played on MTGS - which is a generally lower level of play, but not dramatically lower (higher noise level from random newbs wandering in, and the moderation is terrible). But I don't know any of the people here, which is why I review so many games. I have very few ways to get reads on higher level players since I am just not used to their gameplay.

And sorry about the soft claim, I was rocking the migraine/pain medication combo this weekend, and my posting was wonktastic as a result. I've been thinking CD was town because of this shit governor power and how it works, and it just ran the fuck out there.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, to clarify my stance on CD. I'm not sure what to think, to be honest. I've kinda removed him from my town/scum determination because the dayvig IS a convincing power, but I don't think I'll keep him so neutral as things go on. The thing is, I could probably make a case on him if I tried, and I'm not sure if it would indict him of being stupid or being scum, or both. I still don't think YOUR claim absolves him at all, GI. It's entirely possible ALL power roles in this game are formatted the same way, which would lead to my Dayvig precludes NK theory, though there are still problems with it, depending on if MoI separates active and factional abilities or not.

So, I basically just don't know.

[LimMePls]

UK's reads seem contrived to me. I thought we'd already clairified that Zang is town, and I know I'm town. 2 outta 3 wrong isn't a good place to start.