Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[XScorpion]

Very Interesting.

All I can say is that she is most likely not from US or Russia, and therefore her country was probably not involved heavily in the Cold War.

So you are claiming 3rd party? Do you win when all threats to peace are eliminated, or do you have another win condition?

LF, on the other hand, shut down discussion in a strange way, but he shut down discussion on PI, and as I KNOW "I" am town, there is no possible scumtell in this for me. Scum simply would not do that.

Why not? You have heard of buddying before, right?

Considering I've spent basically the whole game focusing on you, and PoisonIvy was voting for me before you replaced and named me as #1 scum read, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned me. Any thoughts?

Also

We can start with eliminating silly, unattainable prospects like Lowell, Pie, bvoigt, and XScorp. None of these players will be lynched today if I have anything to say about it.

I'm barely posting in this game...why am I so obvtown to you?

@Everyone else: Can you give any reason why Furcolow should not be lynched after all this?

Not done with PI/Amrun yet.

[smargaret]

XScorpion - I think Amrun was saying that PI the person is from a country that is neither the US nor Russia, nor was heavily involved in the Cold War and not that PI got a role pm listing nationality from a not US/Russia country.

[XScorpion]

I'm not from Russia or US either. What's the point then?

[smargaret]

I'm not sure what the point was, but that's just how that part of the catchup post read to me.

[Amrun]

Very Interesting.

All I can say is that she is most likely not from US or Russia, and therefore her country was probably not involved heavily in the Cold War.

So you are claiming 3rd party? Do you win when all threats to peace are eliminated, or do you have another win condition?

Whoa, whoa. I was talking about in real life. I'm saying her posting makes me think she's not American or Russian because of syntax and language tics.

Why not? You have heard of buddying before, right?

Considering I've spent basically the whole game focusing on you, and PoisonIvy was voting for me before you replaced and named me as #1 scum read, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned me. Any thoughts?

I have heard of buddying, but why on earth would scum townbuddy to someone who is the top candidate for lynching? But in actuality, I added LF to the townreads list after I finished the rest of the post and of the three, my townread on him is weakest. To me, it is RC, BoS, LF, in that order, but any of those reads could shift. LF, though, is a distant third compared to the other two.

As for you, you're tunneling hard. HARD. You're tunneling so hard that you're giving me slight-town at the moment, but I'm getting into WIFOM in my own head about it, which is why I didn't comment before. I'm still making up my mind.

Since I know I'm town, I know you're pushing a townie lynch so hard that your head is about to pop off. But since it's so obvious, are you just stuck in a rut and incapable of paying attention to other players, some of whom are a lot scummier than PI, in my opinion?

Either way, I think it's a bad play and tunneling always annoys me because it's so short-sighted. However, is it a bad town play or a bad scum play?

I'm not sure, but I'm glad you pointed out that "my" vote is still on you, because I totally forgot.


UNVOTE: XScorpion

VOTE: Fuzzman


p-edit: Yes, that's what I was saying. My point was that someone with an infirm grasp of English from neither country would be more likely to make the kind of misread that she made about Soviets v. US, especially given the actual role pm she (I) got.

Personally, I think Soviets vs. US is a definite possibility, but it is by no means a sure thing.

[XScorpion]

See here's what I'm thinking...I don't have to know about the cold war to understand a simple "you win when all threats are killed" message. The fact that you say that she was confused about her PM is basically bread-crumbing that you aren't vanilla. However, I don't believe PI is a PR, because then she wouldn't be so eager to just let herself die, and if she was a vanilla, she wouldn't be confused about the role PM. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

I have heard of buddying, but why on earth would scum townbuddy to someone who is the top candidate for lynching? But in actuality, I added LF to the townreads list after I finished the rest of the post and of the three, my townread on him is weakest. To me, it is RC, BoS, LF, in that order, but any of those reads could shift. LF, though, is a distant third compared to the other two.

Isn't that the point of buddying? You buddy with the top lynch candidate because you know they're town and you look good when they flip.

But since it's so obvious, are you just stuck in a rut and incapable of paying attention to other players, some of whom are a lot scummier than PI, in my opinion?

Oh, I'm paying attention to other players. I just think PI is the best person to be lynched today. I'd go through and ISO everybody, but I want a flip first to put things in perspective. Why are you not the best flip right now?

[Amrun]

I realize completely that it's hard to misunderstand the role PM, but seeing as I KNOW she did it, I'm just trying to offer a possible explanation. Honestly, I'm stumped myself and I know it looks bad so I just thought I'd take a stab at defending. PI's gameplay was absolutely baffling and I've been put in a hard position, replacing her.

For the record, I was not trying to hint at a PR. I was talking about flavor. My character was someone I might expect to see on scumside, but he's town.


About LF, yes, that is the point of buddying, but that's such an obvious buddyploy that I don't buy it. I think it's just LF's playing style. As I said, I have a weak town read on him so far.

As for your tunneling, I'm not talking about you keeping your vote on PI. I'm talking about your absolute lack of scumhuunting. iirc, you were not the person to start the bandwagon and I can't recall you actually presenting new information on it. However, you have been steadfast, and if you are town, I do believe you think she is scum and are trying to lynch her for that reason...

But seriously, tunneling is anti-town, especially at this stage of the game. Even if PI were to flip scum -- which she (I) won't, if I am killed -- she wouldn't be the only scum in the game.

Nothing is stopping you from scumhunting others, even if you keep your vote on PI. You, however, show a total lack of interest in that.

[smargaret]

Amrun - scum would buddy a townie up for a lynch so that, when the townie gets lynched, they get town points for not being on the mislynch. Now, why are you voting someone for pressure when you have actual scumreads? You're starting to sound a lot like you're trying to sound town, not like you actually are town (the long "ignore my scummy predecessor!" at the start of your catchup post, the Vote: x cast suspicion on: a, b, c!, and the I won't flip scum! in your most recent post)

[LimMePls]

Sorry for being absent, but my vote on ThAd still is looking as wonderful as ever. Did anyone need an update on the case?

Nope. I got that covered.

[LimMePls]

The game is being pulled in far too many directions. 11 different people currently have votes on them. This is unacceptable. We're going to need to consolidate. We can start with eliminating silly, unattainable prospects like Lowell, Pie, bvoigt, and XScorp. None of these players will be lynched today if I have anything to say about it.

QFT

[LimMePls]

ThAd - your reaction has been very "Why me? Lol, someone thinks I'm scum. Why am I scum? Look at this shiny VI we can lynch instead." This quote in particular:

Secondly I believe, in general, that I am not all that much of a scumhunter. I certainly do it, but I am pretty sure if you looked over my history I have more often been inclined to pick and choose from what I believe are the best cases rather than submit ones of my own.

sounds off, almost like you're trying to play an equivalent of the newbie card - "Oh, don't mind me, I can't scumhunt, that's why I was pushing the townie mislynch."

Also, you seem to have inside alignment information and a lot of your reads on people change suddenly and for no apparent reason - you spend one whole post early in the game agreeing with me and saying I make good points, yet the next post in your iso has you getting scum tingles from me. You do the same thing to Furc - he's obvtown and then in the next post in your iso, he's clearly scum. That looks like you're feeling out where people are willing to wagon.

This is a great point. This is because he was thinking he would buddy those people, and then when he saw an opportunity for a mislynch on them, his reads went out the window. This is another great reason ThAd is scum.

[LimMePls]

504 makes me nervous. 505 and 507 are good posting.

[Amrun]

Amrun - scum would buddy a townie up for a lynch so that, when the townie gets lynched, they get town points for not being on the mislynch. Now, why are you voting someone for pressure when you have actual scumreads? You're starting to sound a lot like you're trying to sound town, not like you actually are town (the long "ignore my scummy predecessor!" at the start of your catchup post, the Vote: x cast suspicion on: a, b, c!, and the I won't flip scum! in your most recent post)

I just wanted to shake things up a little bit. So far, the votes are so spread out that my one vote spreading more things out won't make much of a difference.

It seemed to me that people are really set in their votes, yet we don't have majority. Something has to change.

I have actual scumreads, but I also have an actual scumread on Fuzzman, whom I voted for. Right now, he seems like the ultimate lurker in a scummy way. He only shows up when people are bitching about him to say he is not US or Soviet? To me, that is suspect. I also think that even if he isn't scum, he is probably third party and not beneficial to town. He seems to be trying to skate by. I don't like it.


p-edit: What about 504 makes you nervous? XScorp pushed me for a read on him and I gave him my honest answer, which is that I think tunneling at this stage of the game is anti-town, but not anti-town enough to merit a vote.


If Fuzz never shows up and responds to my vote, I'll be forced to change it to someone more fruitful, but I think it's beneficial to town to try and get something out of him. I would like to see him lynched because I think he's scum. That's why I voted for him.

Besides Fuzz, my top suspect is ThAd, but the bandwagon seems to be falling his way at this point and I'd rather not just come into a game and follow. I'd rather say something for myself first.

[Amrun]

Oh, woops, I inserted the p-edit BEFORE my final paragraph. That was a mistake.

[DavidParker]

lowell is effectively trying to quell the momentum of myself voting someone who is probably being replaced as scum because they didn't fit their town meta as scum. It's tough to fake it.

I am viewing Lowell, then, as being Amrum's partner-in-crime, trying to wagon jmj a town-VI.

Town-VI??? That's a huge misrep. Nothing has indicated towards jmj being a VI yet.

[InflatablePie]

Gonnano wagon's dying down, which makes me sad because I'm not liking a Thad or jmj wagon right now, especially with smarg pushing the Thad wagon.

Weird vibes from 498.

smarg's 507 really rubs me the wrong way - she's pushing the Amrun wagon while staying on ThAd, another high BW. Don't know HOW LynchMe is getting goodposting from that. Maybe I'm just tunneling though.

[smargaret]

IP, there's a difference between pushing a wagon and trying to get a read on someone who replaced into a scummy spot that was scummy largely because his predecessor actively worked against allowing the town to read her. Also, it's folly to object to a wagon right now because one person is on it - unless you're scum, you know nothing about my alignment and thus can draw no conclusions about ThAd's alignment from my suspicion of him.

In short, yes, you are tunneling. And for all that you're so convinced I'm scum that you won't vote anyone that I am EVEN THOUGH YOU FIND THEM SCUMMY TOO, you're not voting me. Why not?

[GhostWriter]

GW (He seems to be delighting in a blatant refusal to scumhunt.)

Yet we share a scumread. Shit is crazy.

Anyway, you have a point in that a ThAd flip would most likely yield nice results both from his flip itself as well as from analysis. And my Jmj vote doesn't do much if Jmj isn't really here. Other than that, the case against ThAd is a good one, and his defense wasn't such as to deter me enough from his wagon. My hesitation to get on it was his (to me, it seemed) tunneling of me. It tends to be a townie move when someone tunnels. Also, inb4 someone screams OMGUS.

Unvote

VOTE: ThAd

[DavidParker]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I'm pretty sure GhostWriter is scum. More sure than almost anyone.

[GhostWriter]

You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.

As I stated earlier, if I couldn't get what I wanted out of my Jmj vote, I'd move it to ThAd. He's done NOTHING to make me not feel it's the right place for my vote, outside of that one thing.

[ThAdmiral]

@ smargret: I'm on my phone so it's hard for me to quote but I am responding to your post about me a page or so back.

Of all the posts by people voting me for their reasons this makes the most sense.
All I can say is that I'm not trying to excuse myself before the fact for lynching a townie. First off all I genuinely believe gw is scum, second of all if you check my meta you can confirm that I generally don't scumhunt. While there are times I do, for example I always like to make a case on someone if I replace in to a game, I am far more likely to jump on an existing case.
Furthermore it is untrue to suggest because of this that my belief in these cases are any less, or that I would be less culpable if it was indeed on a townie. I choose cases I believe in and expect to be held fully accountable for my choices.

[Artem]

LMP, to some extent this is jmj's playstyle. But is it really a playstyle when he isn't playing?

Smarg, can you please link some of the games where this is the case? I poked through his posts and I see a lot of one-liners all over the site, some mention of the same problems as in this thread, but no other promises of content.

I feel like turning up the heat for now, though:

Unvote; Vote: jmj

WHERE!? Other than his inability to post (which he is claiming has outside factors)? If it's the inability to post, then your case DOES boil down to a lurker/policy lynch, despite your protestations to the contrary.

It's not an inability to post. If jmj was truly unable to post, he wouldn't be posting to tell us that he's currently busy and that the content is coming. This is called active lurking and it's a scumtell. If he was unable to post, he'd stop posting, get replaced and/or ask for replacement.

Regarding Feysal's case on Fur:

I admit that I fall into the category of people who's dismissing Fur's anti-town behavior as that of a VI. However, I don't think he's a good Day 1 lynch. There are some players here (Lowell, for instance) who I absolutely do NOT want to be in LyLo with because of how hard they are to read. Such players often become targets of very informative D1 wagons, but ultimately D1 is not the right time to pursue them. At one point, I voted Fur for playing his self-proclaimed scum meta, and I'm keeping an eye on him, but I would really like to see 1-2 cardflips before gaging whether Fur should be pursued seriously.

The purpose of Day 1 is to generate content and get a set of initial reads and reactions on everyone. Fur is generating plenty of content, and with less than 2 weeks to deadline I think a better place for votes / pressure is players that we don't have good reads on.

Regarding LMP's case on ThAd:

While it's a good case, ThAd did post his response. LMP for the most part ignored the response and did not provide any follow-up questions, which currently makes it a tunnel-vision more than anything else. The fact that LMP tunnels ThAd to the point of defending jmj (which I feel is a competing wagon) is also slightly suspicious.

Other comment(s)

Really like the posts of the replacing-in players Feysal and Amrun. Both provide a good set of reads and point out scummy behavior in other players. The only thing that stands out to me is the repeated use of "I know I'm NOT scum" in Amrun's arguments. Some of it is used to justify his reads on others, though, so I guess it's reasonable.

Also, you seem to have inside alignment information and a lot of your reads on people change suddenly and for no apparent reason.

I would think that somebody without inside information would be more willing to change their reads. (Albeit, not for no apparent reason.)

[bvoigt]

@Furc: While I don't agree with his case on you, Feysal seems sincere, and probably town.

The gonnano wagon doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Now that my top suspect has an active replacement, maybe we can get enough support to get her lynched. So far, Amrun's play looks just as bad as PI's.

Scumreads:
Fuzzman (1 post with a weird flavorclaim? Really?)
ThAd (less for the weakish case against him and more for his strange reactions to pressure)
jmj (

very slight

-- would not vote for him at this point, but his reactions to pressure are super rage, which is odd)
GW (He seems to be delighting in a blatant refusal to scumhunt.)


I'm also getting

slight towns

off of DP (meta, but I don't really trust meta) and Feysal (good case against Furcolow).

I'm null on Furcolow

for several reasons. As others have pointed out, Furc's discussion of daytalk reads as a towntell... But as Feysal outlined nicely, which I was thankful for since now I don't have to do it myself, Furcolow contradicts himself CONSTANTLY and makes tons of anti-town plays. He's either scum or just a bad player... but at this precise moment I'm leaning towards bad player.

This may be swayed by future Furc actions.

I also have a null on gonnano

. Some of his posts seem a bit scummy (not trusting his own reads seems to me to be giving himself an excuse for a mislynch), but some of his posts do not. In particular, early on, a lot of people were pointing to his interaction with PI being scummy, and while I agree that gonanno looks scummy if PI were scum, I know PI is NOT scum. So,

I'm on the fence

about gonnano but leaning town since I have the advantage of knowing that I am not, in fact, scum. Also I think he makes a good point about Lowell, but not strong enough. I'd like to see Lowell defend himself, though.

Bolded are all examples of fencesitting, and while some null reads are expected, I don't like that she only has 3 townreads when I (for example) have 10. Perhaps she wants to keep her options open later in the game. In addition, the last sentence of the Furcolow paragraph is pointless, and reads as nervous scum adding an unnecessary qualifier.

Plus, there's the fact that her vote on Fuzzyman boils down to a lurker case. Lurkers are the easy candidates...a lack of free time does not make someone more likely to be scum; it just makes them easier to attack. She's also been inconsistent on why she's voting Fuzzy:

VOTE: Fuzzman

I'd like to see some pressure on him to prompt him into posting so we can get a more solid read on him.

This implies that Fuzzy is slightly scummy, and the vote is mostly for pressure.

I have actual scumreads, but I also have an actual scumread on Fuzzman, whom I voted for. Right now, he seems like the ultimate lurker in a scummy way. He only shows up when people are bitching about him to say he is not US or Soviet? To me, that is suspect. I also think that even if he isn't scum, he is probably third party and not beneficial to town. He seems to be trying to skate by. I don't like it.

This, on the other hand, uses strong language and implies that she definitely thinks Fuzzy is scum.

tl;dr:

Amrun is fencesitting, voting a lurker, inconsistent, and scum.

UNVOTE: gonnano
VOTE: Amrun

[smargaret]

Artem - jmj was the day 1 lynch in black and white comic book mafia in Coney Island (sorry, too lazy to look up the link right now) for exactly the same delaying tactics/lack of analysis.

[Amrun]

Bvoigt: I don't like to form too solid opinions when I replace into a game. I don't experience the posts organically so I feel like my perspective is skewed by everyone else's suspicions. I try to come up with some new arguments, but I think it's better to do so as things unfold around me.

In general, though, I do not tunnel and my town reads are rare. Everyone is scummy until proven innocent, to me, and I keep an open mind about things.

So for the moment, I AM on the fence about several people. I am more certain about others, which I said first. Anyone 100% on their reads of EVERYONE or majority is either delusional or scum.

As for Fuzzman, he is scummy-looking to me but a read based on one post is hardly trustworthy, not to mention a lynch is unlikely at this point.