268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson

[Alexander]

confirmed and ready to go

[Alexander]

/me on Christmas break.
/me unable to post frequently (possibly not at all) till New Year.

[Alexander]

Hi everyone, I'm back from my Christmas break, I seem to have missed the best part of day 1, the random votes... would it be too late for a random vote now? Yup, I guess it will.

Ok, non-random vote then. broomhead does look scummy, but then again he also did in the last game where he was town. MeMe has a good point against Pariah, but not enough for a vote. Sigh. No votes.

[Alexander]

Upon a complete re-read,

FOS Tamuz

and

FOS Foolster41

.

The former because of:

Adele, scum don't start too many bandwagons. Through my experence when playing as scum, I have less of a licence to start and go through an entire attack phase. More on less I just snowballed as scum. Which leads me to believe town are actually allowed to be more aggressive than scum because the scum need to hide.

Basically, he seems to be preparing an alibi for himself to be agressive. Still,

could be

a townie over-generalizing the scum behavior.

The latter, because of voting for no reason other than tagging along with Meme, then hopping off when the wagon failed to gain speed.

[Alexander]

I'm begining to see the cry for "ADD SOMETHING OR DIE" to votes as something of a fallacy.

Or a healthy metagame consideration. After all, if everyone is allowed to bandwagon and tag along with no negative reprecussions, it only makes the scum job much easier.

[Alexander]

Well, not to speak on behalf of MeMe, but Talitha's post was mildly scummy. It has an air of "oh, I would like to vote, but I'm afraid it will go on my permanent record, so I'll just talk about voting".

Is it scummy enough for a vote? To each his own criteria, I guess...

[Alexander]

1) She said she didn't have access and has now told every other thread in which she posted limited access that she's back EXCEPT for this one.

Can you give specifics please? What other games is Talitha in? If this is true, it does look bad for her.... "Lynch all liars" indeed....

[Alexander]

So, combining Talitha's posts from all 4 threads on Jan 03:
1:49 am : my home internet is down and I don't know when it will be back, so I won't vote Pariah (posted on this thread)
1:55 am : my home internet is down and I don't know how long it will take to get it fixed
2:59 am : I am back with dialup
2:56 am : woot! I'm back!
3:13 am : I am back online at home
6:24 am : A post which doesn't contain info about her Internet connection

She also made posts on Jan 03 PM, and Jan 04 AM, with no mention of Internet trouble.

Yes, it could be her hiding behind her (false?) internet trouble to avoid placing a vote, BUT, even more likely, since she's in multiple mafia games, she simply ... DRUMROLL ... has a life and forgot to check up on one of the games once her internet was restored!

Overall, I consider it minor evidence and not worthy of my vote. Your mileage may vary.

[Alexander]

1. Too numerous to mention all examples
2. I went back because once I examined the evidence it looks more like "lynch all forgetters". Not that I am saying she's NOT a liar, she could well be, but there's a healthy chance she just forgot.
3. Well, broomhead FOS'ed me at the beginning of this game based on my behavior in a previous game ... so I must now fume in righeous indignation and say it's wrong... just kidding, it's a valid, although not too conclusive, consideration.

[Alexander]

I started doing a PBPA of some players, in an effort to finally get myself to vote. I decided to start with the players that were attacked by MeMe: broomhead, Pariah, Talitha. I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum. Alas, this was not meant to be.

This is what I found:

The attack on broomhead: starts when he FOS's me for flimsy reasons (although it's the start of the game, so anything goes), ends when he makes a mistake (deliberate or not?) regarding how many people to lynch.

The attack on Pariah: starts as he makes 3 posts that "encourage broad suspicion", according to MeMe. However on a third re-read, I actually begin to see those posts are raising perfectly valid points AND refusing to sell his vote for cheap... which is exactly what I am trying to do. The attack quells when a more suitable (?) target appears, in the shape of dial-up-Talitha. Or maybe it had something to do with not enough people joining the wagon.

The attack on Talitha: accused T. of lying about her access. Initially sounded convincing, but when I examined the evidence there was actually not much in it. Lich, Adele and Foolster also voiced opinions that it's mildly suspicious, but not enough for a vote. MeMe herself seems to have withdrawn the allegation. She's not attacking Talitha in her last post.

Now, I'm not saying of course those 3 aren't scum, but I think their chances are not higher than anyone elses. Which of course led me to think about the initiator of the attacks, MeMe.

All of this put together leads me to believe that MeMe is attacking people whom she really doesn't believe to be scum. Is she doing so because she is scum herself and is trying to shove a wagon into motion, or is she just a townie probing at semi-random to see if she stirs up a hornet's nest?

I'd like to check this, and the only way to do it is to stir up something myself. In other words, run something up the flagpole and see who will salute; rattle the cage and see who will ask for a banana... ok, enough with the metaphores already...

Vote: MeMe

[Alexander]

Sorry, forgot to bold the vote.

Vote: MeMe

[Alexander]

Cool. You claim to be voting someone you suspect to see what happens. Wonder why I'm accused for doing the same...

Because you did it 3 times today, and in all 3 times you voted for someone whom (after further read) I did not consider more-scummy-then-average. I don't know your play style, and maybe constantly shifting your vote is what you always do, but it doesn't look good to me.

As for the rest of your arguments, we must agree to disagree, I guess.

[Alexander]

I have nothing to respond do. You seem to be sticking to your position calmly, you have corrected me on some points, which I grudgingly accept (you didn't accuse T. of lying about her access, but about deliberately staying away from the thread), although they don't change the big picture in my view.

I voted mainly to spur discussion, but it seems the discussion is between me and you. I'd like others to participate before I say more.

[Alexander]

One person votes me (and has since backed off a tad since I responded well and corrected some of his case)

I had not backed down, and you had not corrected any significant part of my case. I said "you accused Talitha of being dishonest about X", and you said "No, I accused her of being dishonest about Y". While I concede that X and Y are different, it still has no bearing toward my conclusion.

Either way, I'll be surprised if someone more suspicious pops up today.

I won't. Someone more suspicious pops up all the time, it's the nature of the game.

[Alexander]

I definately don't like this comment, as others have said by Alex: "

I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum

." Human beings make errors, and it's perfectly natural to accuse someone to get a reaction or simply be wrong about someone. "Striking gold" doesn't always happen, and you don't even know for sure if everyone on that list is really a citizen/unscummy. It's just your

opinion

that they are unscummy.

I should have worded it better, so here goes:

"I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up

scummy in a way I will be able to notice and gauge

".

I am not voting MeMe because she pointed fingers at those 3, and not because she failed to bring forth the scum that we so crave for. For what I know, they could well be scum. Maybe she DID struck gold... But I am voting her because, upon further reread, I consider her voting reasons

invalid in all 3 cases

. If there is something scummy in the behavior of those 3, I was not able to notice it. And yes, this is just my opinion, but unfortunately that's all I have.

[Alexander]

Assuming Meme's clear, you look at the three she attacks, but since they don't seem very scummy otherwise (but how could you know if they are or arn't), you suspect MeMe? This seems like just a bunch of useless guessing. I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, alex.

a. I never assumed MeMe's clear. But, with her being the most experienced player, I figured that the people she voted for would be a good place to start looking for scum. That's why I looked at them first. Not because she is clear, not because she is the oracle, because it was a good place to start.

b. I don't KNOW if they are scummy or not. I said that before. I do not appreciate you repeating the "how can you know" argument.

c. I do know that in all 3 cases, the reasons she brought for voting for them are (in my opinion) invalid.

Hence, again, in my opinion, the best place to plant my vote right now is on MeMe. And that's where my vote is. Right now my vote is taking a nap, resting from all the hard work he did. He's probably not going anywhere soon... unless someone more scummy comes up.

[Alexander]

Upon further re-read (and this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the raging MeMe debate), I will

FOS broomhead

and

FOS chaotic diablo

, because of their interactions on pages 2-3. At the top of page 2, broomhead said something strange, quickly accumulated 2 votes and 1 FOS. Then, comes chaotic diablo, and, with no regard to the ongoing discussion ... votes for himself? It

almost

seems like c.d. saw a fellow mafia member (who also happens to be an inexperienced player) in trouble, and quickly came in to shift the focus away from him. Then, when people asked c.d. for clarification, broomhead actually responded for him in posts 51/53.

Again, this has nothing to do with MeMe, just another direction I'm probing into. MeMe's idea of showing hands is sound, I'd like to see more participants. My hand is up of course.

[Alexander]

*does

NOT

raise hand*

You avatar betrays your true thoughts, Fritzler. Take a good hard look at your avatar's hand....

[Alexander]

Your explanation, c.d. (I presume you mean posts 46/ 49), seems to have no logical purpose other than horsing around and drawing attention to itself. It doesn't explain anything, at least not in the common-English-language sense of 'explain'.

Pariah asked for clarification based

only on your behavior

. If you consider just your erratic self-voting, there really is not much to go by, not even good for a disgruntled FOS (and by the way, he did not FOS you as a result of the self-vote, but as a result of the OMGUS vote that came afterwards). I also though at first there is not much to go by, because I was also

only looking at you

, not on a combination of factors.

However considering your behavior

in combination

with an impending broomhead wagon is good enough to FOS both of ya... or at least IGMEOY... nah, FOS is better, let's keep the FOS.

[Alexander]

Adele,
When chaotic_diablo posted this:

I voted myself for the last few games.

It seemed so ludicrous to me that I didn't even bother to check the veracity of this statement. In retrospect, I should have. However, since you did the research for me and came up with a specific list, I concede that his self-voting whimsy is at least consistent. So,

UNFOS chaotic_diablo

and, since the accusation vs. broomhead was by association, also

UNFOS broomhead

.

PS: I actually quite disagree with your points 1 and 3, but it matters not. Point #2 pulls the rug under my argument by itself.

[Alexander]

Well, the game seems to have stalled. In order to advance it somewho, I would like to dangle the following idea in front of you guys: MASS NAME CLAIM.

Why is this good? Well, for several reasons:
a. There just aren't that many characters in the movie. Most of the scum will be forced into a counterclaim or into obscurelcaim.
b. Some of the main characters are so obvious that they could not have been excluded. Anyone claiming Fat Sam, Bugsy or Blousey and not counterclaimed is immediately clear. THREE clear townies for day 1 is a great job. The mob is unlikely to dare to claim such obvious roles.
c. Tallulah is dead! Why is this good? Well, because she is somewhat "on the fence" character - not really evil, but not really good as well. So, had someone claimed Tallulah, I would not be at all sure they are a townie. But, Tallulah is dead and turned out to be town. With her out of the way, almost all remaining roles are clearly polarized between good and evil.

d. And finally, the best reason for a nameclaim: THERE IS NO OBVIOUS DOC. What does that mean?

Well, in many flavorful setups, the rolename is directly connected to the role.
- Simpsons mafia? Dr. Hibbert is clearly the doc
- Children literature mafia? Dr. Dolittle is the doc
- Treasure Island mafia? Dr. Livesey is the doc

But in this setup? I honestly cannot think about any single character in the movie who is an obvious candidate to be the doc. No one in the movie has an obvious connection to medicine or protection. If there is a doc in the game, his/her role is flavor-detached.

So, to summorise:
Mass name-claiming doesn't leave the mob many safe choices.
It gives us at least 3 confirmed innocents
It does NOT give out the doc.
It does NOT allow the claiming of a borderline-good role (since the only such role is dead).

Please feel free to discuss and poke holes in my logic. I would like very much to get feedback on this.

[Alexander]

broomhead,
of course people can lie when claiming. But, but doing so, they run the risk of one of two:
a. Claiming a character that someone else claims (if they do, our chances to hit scum are 50%, very good odds)
b. Claiming a character so obscure than no one will believe them

Speaking of obscure, what the hell is "Frank", and what's up with the "I made it up" part? Ayelin, for example, was "Tallulah", she had an actual name, I'm sure all of us have actual names. Didn't you receive an ACTUAL NAME when you got your role?

[Alexander]

Fritzler,

I need your input on specifically this question:

Do you think that all 3 major characters (Sam, Bugsy, Blousey) exist in the game?

Your opinion will be appreciated.

[Alexander]

Also, I would like to add another viable reason to full-name-claim:

ALMOST ALL THE PLAYERS HERE HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE.
(as discovered in the last few posts)

This means that scum will have hard time coming up with believable false claims. I mean, it's not like Star Wars, where all the characters are iconic... I HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THE MOVIE, and I am having a difficult time coming up with believable false claims for scum. Extremely lucky for me, then, that I am not scum and I do not need to resort to false claims, my real one is good enough

[Alexander]

Fritzler: please read mod's post #13. There is a clear line, as he says, between good and evil characters. Given post #13, there IS NO WAY that one of the big 3 can be mafia... unless the mod blatantly lied in this post.

[Alexander]

*seriously* Firstly, enhance your reading comprehention skills. I talked about nameclaim, not roleclaim.

*seriously2* I will nameclaim once everyone, or most, concur that a mass nameclaim is a good idea. And when I do, it will not be "uhm, my name is Joe and I made it up".

[Alexander]

@Foolster:Fat Sam is not on the fence. He and his gang are Bugsy's allies, Dan and his gang are Bugsy's enemies.

Tallulah is on the fence because, although technically in the employment of Sam, she's mean to Bugsy on more than one occurance.

If the mod made Tallulah 'good', then Sam is most certainly 'good'.

[Alexander]

I will nameclaim once everyone, or most, concur that a mass nameclaim is a good idea.

Sorry, could you clarify? Earlier, you said

I would like to dangle the following idea in front of you guys

You just seemed to be floating an idea, now you look like you're advocating it. Have you decided that you think it's the best decision or do you still want to debate upsides and downsides?

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer. FIRST, we debate the idea. THEN, we show hands. If most hands are up, I will nameclaim as well. I will not nameclaim if most hands are down.

Makes sense?

[Alexander]

c_d,

First, the *enhance* comment was not to you, but the broomhead, who mixed up name/role claim.

Second, as I said in the initial post discussing nameclaim, there is no character in the movie who is an obvious doc.

- Blousey could be the doc (female compassion and all... could be reaching)
- One of Sam's bodyguards could be the doc (protection)
- Or someone else

Just by knowing a char's name, we most likely won't know if he's has doc powers. This is not like the Simpsons' Mafia, where someone says "I'm Dr. Hibbert" and it immediately becomes obvious he's the doc. In this movie, there are no medical professionals. I can think of at least 3 names that could CONCIEVABLY be the doc, but I cannot think of one that would OBVIOUSLY be the doc.

As for the cop, alas, there were cops in the movie, and it will most likely be apparent who the cop is. However, with the doc HIDDEN having the cop REVEALED is actually not that much of a problem, isn't it? Sort of a blessing in disguise, no? The doc will watch the cop, the mafia kill random townies scrambling to get the doc.

[Alexander]

I'm relatively new and don't know: is a name-claim situation likely to lead to a role-claim situation?

Just so you all know, I'm still waiting on an answer...

It could, if your role is flavorfully connected to your name. For example, if you are, by name, one of the Cops from the movie, you are obviously a Cop in the game as well.

If your name is relatively flavor-free, like "Knuckles, Sam's right hand man", you could be more or less anything (you'd be town though - Sam's gang are good)

[Alexander]

So what is the mod saying, essentially? That he doesn't want us to mass-claim because it might break the game? 'cause that's how I am reading the above post, LMK if I misunderstand.

[Alexander]

Oh my God! MeMe, Adele and myself all agree! The Messiah is upon us!

Balance or no balance, I want to win. I spent a lot of time analyzing the movie, the characters, the safe claims, and I must say I do not appreciate anyone telling me "you cannot use the results of your hard work because you can't"

VOTE MASS NAMECLAIM

[Alexander]

Oh, Adele has a point,

UNVOTE MeMe

for the time being.

[Alexander]

This is my first flavorful game of mafia (I completed several flavoreless games before) and I must say that a pronouncement that we CANNOT USE THE FLAVOR absolutely stuns me. I did a lot of flavor-based work, something the scum obviously didn't do (they found it much easier to just run to you with complaints), and now all my work was nullified.

My first instinct is to just say the hell with it and withdraw from this game... but I don't want to post anything commital before I have a chance to sleep on it. Good night for now.

[Alexander]

In my opinion our mod took a completely, irrevocably, 100% wrong path on this one. He designed the game poorly, with no safe claims and outs for the scum, and now we have to pay the price. More specifically, me. The time I wasted doing the research could have been better spent playing Mag-Jongg; the lazy mafia, who didn't care to research even one safe claim, whined their way into a get-out-of-jail-free pass.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with "benefiting the player who had done the most research". In fact, the very reason I joined a flavorful game, was to combine regular mafia strategies with flavor research. My plan was mod-shut, and I consider this the highest stamp of approval possible.

I have already 4 flavorless mafia games in progress across different sites; in those games, my roles are DOC, BACKUP COP, VANILLA TOWN and MASON respectively, really oozes with flavor, huh? I wanted this game to be different, but it's not. Overall, there is no reason for me to stay in the game.

Since proposing such an obviously pro-town plan clearly labels me as town, I am sure my replacement would appreciate doc protection tonight.

I REQUEST TO BE REPLACED

[Alexander]

On Night 1, I flipped a coin whether to investigate MeMe or Fritzler. Had it landed the other way, game would've been mostly over on Day 1, leaving 2 vanilla mafia to fend for themselves against a vastly overpowered town.

I have to commend the scum for sticking to their guns for so long, especially MeMe.

[Alexander]

Whoa, do not lead me down the path of temptation... I just might sig that.

[Alexander]

First of all, congrats tracking the post down and attributing it to the game... but you're wrong attributing it to scum. Other people in the game needed all the info about characters they could get too, you know ...

It was actually me, the rolefinder-cop

[Alexander]

You suck!

you're a scary player

Meh, mixed reviewes, I guess.