Mafia 123 - Outdoorsmen Mafia 2 GAME OVER

[Empking]

I know I am going to get absolutely nothing, but might as well ask. How are Parama and Calacifer connected? Or are they separate scum? Why so?

Couldn't tell you.

Nhammen: Gut

>_>. Ok, fine. Let's reword it for you. Are Parama and Calacifer aligned scum or not?

Haven't the foggiest.

So why are they scum?

Gut.

[Calcifer]

2. Parama
3. bvoigt
5. Sensfan (Rep. tylerjarvis N2)
7. nhammen
8. don_johnson
11. Empking
12. iamausername
15. Sharkfinn (Rep. UntrodTripod D2)
16. DemonHybrid

List of players alive (minus self). Notes say that UT (now Shark) is town, and Demon probably is as well. They also say BV and Parama look bad.

Demon's actions towards Evil immediately after the game start are either immediate-bussing or evidence Demon and Evil are not the scum. So, not Eastern.

This seems like evidence that Parama is not aligned with Evil, so if Parama is scum, it's Western.

A 10-3-3 is not balanced by any means. Town has 3 mislynches, yet needs to lynch scum 6 times (in the worst case scenario). So the game's basically relying on crosskills. 10-3-3 is incredibly swingy and if we're playing a 10-3-3 then screw this game. 12-2-2 probably isn't likely either considering that the game could end D2 in the best case scenario. Also very swingy. Meh. 2 mafia factions in a game this small is barely normal anyways.

This seems like 1: Parama is upset that it is 10-3-3, and
2: He is trying to make it seem like it's 12-2-2 when he knows it's not.

The tone I get from that post is not setup speculation from a pro-town player. The tone I get from that post is, "SCREW YOU, MOD! This game isn't balanced at all!" With a small hint of intentional misleading.

Overall, I get a town feeling from tyler here. I'm sure if I dissected the post, I could find out why, but that'd be a distraction.

Also, I don't think it's likely that it would be 10-3-3, its unfair. I don't think a mod going for a balanced game would throw that at us.

Sound familiar? It should; this is pretty much exactly the same tone I got from Parama's post before. Ross, Western scum. Parama, looking like quite the nice buddy.

Dunno why (call it gut--I'm sure I could find reasons if I looked more into it), but this post makes me feel like Nhammen is the last Eastern Mafia member.

His ender vote came across as a bit odd to me in my original read of the game--and I still stick by that. He picked Ender out of all the others he could have. It reads as too artificial, like it couldn't happen without nhammen being on the same team as ender.

His voting reason could have applied to multiple others, so instead, it feels like a "POST MORE, BUDDY" rather than, "This guy's scum!"

His vote on us looks like it's a bit opportunistic.

Yeah, really liking nhammen-Eastern-scum right now.

---

This is the first five pages. It's produced some strong reads already.

[Calcifer]

BV's entry post makes a lot of sense for him being scum.

-Ross is dead in the middle of his not sure reads.
-Parama is in there as well.
-To me, it makes a lot of sense at this stage to put both buddies at neutral, 'specially with an equal number of town reads to neutral reads, 'cause it's hard to pick this stuff out, hard to notice at first glance.

Whatever happened to 3 being too many, Parama? Contradiction to his earlier attitude, no explanation for his change in opinion between 12-2-2 and 10-3-3.

The post also reeks of opportunism.

DGB puts nhammen in the middle of her town list, and Evil in the middle of her scum list. Coincidence? Possible, but not likely to me.

This post is mostly filler.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the people under each heading are in no particular order.

"Oh, crud, I'm exposing my buddy!"

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

,

Ross William

, Empking (4)

evilpacman8

- Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

At this point, I'd expect to see one scum on Demon, possibly a second from the other faction. On Evil, I'd expect to see scum from the opposite faction. Parama fits the pattern. They'd want one scum on each leading wagon. The third scum in the Western Mafia would be off of both lead wagons, and bv fits that pattern, too.

Opportunistic. I've said it before, that the first 4 on Werewolf contains 1-2 scum (1 from one faction, possibly 1 from another), and DGB (Eastern) and BV (Western) fits this pattern.

I also said that in the second half of the wagon (divided into two halves itself), there's likely to be another 1-2 scum (again, 1 from each faction). And I feel the three votes back-to-back after that are where those scum are.

This fits Nhammen (Eastern), and Parama (Western), though it could be Empking (doubtful).

This reads as scum coaching town. I know 'cause I love to coach town even when I'm scum.

This post reeks of setting up (mis-) lynches on a lot of players.
"I'm willing to lynch all of these guys who aren't my buddies".

Filler, and his post here read to me initially as fluff, but the part about the link being indicated seems like he's setting Demon up.

Again I see a lot I don't like. The speculation about "buddies" (which was never brought up again if memory serves), combined with nhammen. And his followup reads equally as bad to me. There was no indication before this that he thought Werewolf, Demon, and nhammen were a scum team together--heck, he was saying it was 2 scum with a POSSIBILITY of a third, and suddenly, he says he's thought nhammen and Demon were scum with werewolf?

Does not add up.

Sheeping Parama.

"If you kill me, you die!" Reads as desperately trying to get the Eastern Mafia kill off of himself. This post reads as super-bad to me.

I'll try to appease you, but I know you wont accept it.

Then why do it at all? Fear, of course, that he'll be lynched.

"Uh, buddy, forgetting we're not alone?"
"Whoops, yeah, I am."

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

,

Ross William

, don_johnson (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Werewolf

- {Iamusername, Bvoigt,

DrippingGoofball, Evilpacman18

},
{nhammen, Empking, Parama}, {Calcifer, DemonHybrid}

This makes me slightly doubt my Nhammen read. Would all three Eastern Mafia be on a wagon? Still, though, this wagon needs at least two Western--Ross takes care of the Western off the wagon, so there needs to be two on the wagon: {Iam/BV}, and {nham, Empking, Parama} are what I find most likely, with my choices in there quite obvious.

---

Yeah. Finished 14, but Parama-BV-BM is looking quite nice, right now.

[SharkFinn]

Unvote DH

Rethinking DH scum, especially with the above post.

Also done trying to get something out of empking. >_<

[Empking]

Unvote DH

Rethinking DH scum, especially with the above post.

Also done trying to get something out of empking. >_<

Yeah don't think I didn't notice that attempt.

[Empking]

Actually, thinking about this game and the fact that we're already at 10 players with three scum left, two killing teams and the fact that I'm not sure my bread crumbs were good enough I'm going to claim now. And I'm not too trusting on the fact that there isn't a godfather out there.

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

[Calcifer]

Fence-sitting on us-Evil, and voting for Demon. Looks really, really bad.

Basically a lurker vote. Very weak reasoning.

This post makes me think Nhammen is Eastern, again. "Interesting case"-->"Hmm, might need to bus my buddy, here." Also agrees with BV's weak vote; more opportunism.

Agrees with the case on Evil, but maintains his far-weaker vote on Tyler. Does not add up.

Filler.

This weakens my read on Nhammen. He's trying to direct more attention onto Evil, it looks like. Though it does make me wonder why he didn't vote...

Defends his poor vote.

Filler.

"Decent choice, buddy, but not the best move." That's what "this is fine" means to me. I'd expect something more definite otherwise. "This is also on scum" "this is not my preferred choice, but is still good" "this is good, but not the best", etc. is what I'd expect if Parama wasn't trying to direct BV elsewhere.

Bussing. His opinion on Nhammen here might be why he died, too. He continues (and heavily increases) his Nhammen suspicion in his next post, but doesn't mention Parama at all. (Hmm, I wonder why?)

He says next that he'd be voting for Parama, but gives absolutely no reasons as to why, despite having given reasons for his other suspects. Also, his comment about DGB approving--DGB was the Western Mafia kill. See where I'm going with this?

Yeah, Nhammen's probably Eastern scum. Battle Mage going against him like this is why I think BM was killed. His Parama read really comes across as bussing.

"Thanks, buddy."

Their exchange comes across as incredibly forced.

Parama's defense here comes across as BS'ing heavily.

DRK's interaction with Parama here, for pretty much the rest of the game, makes me see reasons behind the DRKill.

I must admit, I do have something which makes me doubt bv-Parama, and that's how obvious bv is making it. Unless this was, "I think Parama is town; don't lynch him!" (That'd be super-scummy), this'd be "I think Parama is town." Which'd be "I'm trying to take Parama down with me!" if BV were scum.

This read as setting up three mislynches on people he knows aren't on his team. "When Demon Dies, I'll vote for one of you two. And when the other dies--if they're town--then I'll be able to lynch the other!"

I agree about Untrod. This is a good case against him. However, I do personally tend to like it when cases precede votes, because it seems more genuine. Even though you failed to do this, I don't see this as scum postponing a case, and in fact, still have a townread on you. Therefore, I will join you:
VOTE: Untrod Tripod

"I'm not ready to bus Evil, so I'll try and get another player lynched, instead!"

In other news, I think that most of the scum are lurking. This game needs a wagon or something.

I'll need to check into BM and Parama's activity levels, but I think they were fairly active. This could've been an attempt to get another lurker lynch like on Werewolf, instead of focusing on the more active players.

"Crud, I'm being scummy with my vote by saying one thing and doing another!"

Evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid,

Bvoigt

, nhammen
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking,

Deathrowkitty

, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername,

nhammen

Parama:

Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis,

evilpacman

, UntrodTripod

Evil needs one scum, and nhammen fits as a buddy bussing, and BV fits as the Western Mafia. Demon has 1-2 scum. I'd say 2, considering Battle Mage takes care of the Western Mafia off of the wagon, and evil takes care of the Eastern Mafia off of a wagon. So, {Parama, DJ, Empking, BV} contains two scum. Guess who?

"Get more active, buddy! I don't want to bus you!" (It works; evil became more active.)

Fluff.

More fluff.

(Honestly, lots of interactions with Demon read as fluff to me.)

This confirms all I need. This is the classic, "two townies and one scum" move. He's suspicious of Evil and Demon, willing to vote either of them, but brings up Parama as scum, too.

Opportunistic.

As was Parama, though he didn't vote.

Evilpacman

: Calcifer, DemonHybrid, nhammen, iamusername, Bvoigt, Don_Johnson, Sharkie
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking,

DRK

Parama:

Battle Mage

Not Voting: Tylerjarvis,

evilpacman

, Sharkie

Evil needs at least 2, if not 3, scum on him. Nhammen (buddy) is one. BV (Western Mafia) makes a good choice for another. Parama was willing t hammer, which'd account for the possible third.
Demon also has one scum. My choice is obviously Parama there, too.

This is almost pure filler. Useful pieces of information can be summed up as this:

UT is probably scum as well, but not on the same team as DH.

Which is just horrible. 1: I have a town-read on both, but 2: If they were scum, it'd be together, not on opposite teams. That's really freakin' obvious if you look at the game.

Parama's VCA is horrible.

Spoiler: Why Is Parama Still Alive?

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, nhammen (3)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)

Well... I think this is a good starting point for DH-western

This actually is evidence that PARAMA, not DH, is the Western Mafia in here. DH voted early--on page one. Parama voted later. Which of those reads as opportunistic? The page-one-vote, or the much-later vote?

Yeah, Parama just dug himself a hole.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian (2)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
ender241 - nhammen (1)
Calcifer - empking (1)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis, iamausername (2)

hi nhammen you're not eastern

If anything, this was proof of nhammen BEING eastern, not proof AGAINST.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, Ross William, Empking (4)
evilpacman8 - Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

hmm...nope, don't think this says much.

It actually does. It says one Western on Demon, one Western on evil, and one Western off. If Parama wasn't the Western, he'd know this.

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod, Guderian, Ross William, don_johnson (4)
evilpacman8 - Demonhybrid, iamausername (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
werewolf - Iamusername, Bvoigt, Drippinggoofball, evilpacman18, nhammen, Empking, Parama, Calcifer, DemonHybrid

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

DH holds his EPM vote. Prob not eastern, but most certainly scum.
Actually, what the hell is up with this VC? Now that I look at it, DH and IAAUN are voting twice xD
In other news, I see two eastern on the werewolf wagon. I'd be shocked to see a third, but someone on this wagon, if not two people, are western. Oh look, DH is on the wagon. HMMMMM.

Lots of fluff, and ignoring the fact that Parama's position looks a heck of a lot worse than Demon's position. Parama's in the Butter Zone. (Revised MIT # 2.)

evilpacman: Calcifer
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama
Tylerjarvis: Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername

Votes everywhere! Nothing new!

Then Why post?!?

evilpacman: Calcifer, DemonHybrid, nhammen
Calcifer: Empking
DemonHybrid: Parama, Don_Johnson, Empking, DRK, Bvoigt
UntrodTripod: iamusername
Parama: Battle Mage

Hey look, DH isn't eastern.
Hey look, I'm not western.

Yeah, 1: fluff (DH obviously isn't eastern), and 2: Ignores a certain thing we like to call "bussing". ESPECIALLY since it wasn't a major wagon. Bussing is best done when it's not a popular wagon, for that's when it has the most impact. Someone like BM would know this.

That was... actually kinda useless. Sigh.

Then why post it at all?!?

Yeah, Parama's so totally scum.

Returning to his weak suspect.

Fluff.

"I'm in trouble; let's make excuses!"

And yet, his vote's on Demon...

---

If it wasn't painfully obvious where all of this was going...

Vote: Parama

.

[Empking]

Unvote

Vote: Parama

[DemonHybrid]

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

Both Western, then?

You are an autolynch if they don't flip mafia, or if they flip godfather.

Unvote, Vote: Parama

[Empking]

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

Both Western, then?

Why?

[DemonHybrid]

Nacho and Parama bussed EPM to the death. So, in lieu of VCA, let's look for eastern connections with other folk.

[SharkFinn]

EPM is eastern. Nacho and Parama cannot both be eastern, unless its 4-4-8 (O_o).

[DemonHybrid]

EPM is eastern. Nacho and Parama cannot both be eastern, unless its 4-4-8 (O_o).

Technically, one could be eastern, one could be Western.

But the VCA says otherwise.

[Empking]

EPM is eastern. Nacho and Parama cannot both be eastern, unless its 4-4-8 (O_o).

Why no Parama vote?

[Parama]

He can see right through your shenanigans is why.
I don't believe your cop claim because
1. I'm not scum
2. Calc isn't scum
3. DH is scum

[don_johnson]

unvote, vote: parama

sure. whatever.

[DemonHybrid]

He can see right through your shenanigans is why.
I don't believe your cop claim because
1. I'm not scum
2. Calc isn't scum
3. DH is scum

k

[DemonHybrid]

Translation: "Shit, Western Mafia is fucked now, fuck"

[Parama]

This seems like evidence that Parama is not aligned with Evil, so if Parama is scum, it's Western.

And BM's tunnel-vision in spite of the growing EPM wagon is evidence that I'm not Western. So I'm neither! YAY!

A 10-3-3 is not balanced by any means. Town has 3 mislynches, yet needs to lynch scum 6 times (in the worst case scenario). So the game's basically relying on crosskills. 10-3-3 is incredibly swingy and if we're playing a 10-3-3 then screw this game. 12-2-2 probably isn't likely either considering that the game could end D2 in the best case scenario. Also very swingy. Meh. 2 mafia factions in a game this small is barely normal anyways.

This seems like 1: Parama is upset that it is 10-3-3, and
2: He is trying to make it seem like it's 12-2-2 when he knows it's not.

The tone I get from that post is not setup speculation from a pro-town player. The tone I get from that post is, "SCREW YOU, MOD! This game isn't balanced at all!" With a small hint of intentional misleading.

Or I know how to balance setups and 10-3-3 doesn't seem like balanced.

Whatever happened to 3 being too many, Parama? Contradiction to his earlier attitude, no explanation for his change in opinion between 12-2-2 and 10-3-3.

I didn't change my opinion. I made lists for both possible scenarios.

The post also reeks of opportunism.

This accusation reeks of "easiest accusation to make ever lol"

This post is mostly filler.

Maybe in your opinion, but I never post filler. This does seem like filler in your case against me, however <_<

DemonHybrid - UntrodTripod,

Guderian

,

Ross William

, Empking (4)

evilpacman8

- Nachomamma8, Demonhybrid, iamausername, Parama (4)
UntrodTripod - tylerjarvis (1)
Guderian - bvoigt (1)

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to secure a lynch.

At this point, I'd expect to see one scum on Demon, possibly a second from the other faction. On Evil, I'd expect to see scum from the opposite faction. Parama fits the pattern. They'd want one scum on each leading wagon. The third scum in the Western Mafia would be off of both lead wagons, and bv fits that pattern, too.

Except I'm not Western because BM was obvious not bussing me, he was trying to push for a ML on me.

This post reeks of setting up (mis-) lynches on a lot of players.
"I'm willing to lynch all of these guys who aren't my buddies".

Actually, I <3 bussing, but thanks for turning my legitimate reads into "lol mislynching lol"

Filler, and his post here read to me initially as fluff, but the part about the link being indicated seems like he's setting Demon up.

1. I don't post filler
2. Yes, I would like to lynch DH. No, he will not flip town.

Again I see a lot I don't like. The speculation about "buddies" (which was never brought up again if memory serves), combined with nhammen. And his followup reads equally as bad to me. There was no indication before this that he thought Werewolf, Demon, and nhammen were a scum team together--heck, he was saying it was 2 scum with a POSSIBILITY of a third, and suddenly, he says he's thought nhammen and Demon were scum with werewolf?

Does not add up.

Werewolf said "buddies" implying he had more than one.
Now does it add up? I mean, he was moronic lying town, but town don't tend to claim scum after being lynched...

Sheeping Parama.

This tends to be a rather pro-town move in any scenario, actually.

"If you kill me, you die!" Reads as desperately trying to get the Eastern Mafia kill off of himself. This post reads as super-bad to me.

...because that totally happens ON DAY 1, right?

Fence-sitting on us-Evil, and voting for Demon. Looks really, really bad.

We've already been over this.
Like, a lot.
Unless this is the other head of the hydra making this argument, in which case stop being so schizo.

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

My vote goes wherever scum is most obvious, which is in this case DH. Once we get through that scumlynch I'll be able to tell you who's the scum out of EPM/Calc.

Instead of idling I'll get a vote down for something more definite.

Can also be read "instead of taking a position on those two I'll just go for something easier."

My vote goes wherever scum is most obvious, which is in this case DH. Once we get through that scumlynch I'll be able to tell you who's the scum out of EPM/Calc.

Okay, fair enough.

So yeah.

Filler.

idon'tpostfiller

"Decent choice, buddy, but not the best move." That's what "this is fine" means to me. I'd expect something more definite otherwise. "This is also on scum" "this is not my preferred choice, but is still good" "this is good, but not the best", etc. is what I'd expect if Parama wasn't trying to direct BV elsewhere.

or I agreed that EPM was a good lynch.

"Thanks, buddy."

Their exchange comes across as incredibly forced.

Or BM is really bad at pushing MLs.

Parama's defense here comes across as BS'ing heavily.

Half of this was me making a valid point and the other half was repeating something I already said.

This read as setting up three mislynches on people he knows aren't on his team. "When Demon Dies, I'll vote for one of you two. And when the other dies--if they're town--then I'll be able to lynch the other!"

Okay yeah this hydra needs to get less schizo. Also I'm trying to lynch my scumspects. If that's scummy, then I guess I should stop trying altogether.

As was Parama, though he didn't vote.

Because quickhammering would've been so much better.

This is almost pure filler. Useful pieces of information can be summed up as this:

UT is probably scum as well, but not on the same team as DH.

Which is just horrible. 1: I have a town-read on both, but 2: If they were scum, it'd be together, not on opposite teams. That's really freakin' obvious if you look at the game.

1. I don't post filler
2. I disagree

Parama's VCA is horribl-

-y accurate.
And looking at your reasons, I don't think I'm going to even bother.

Fluff.

...answering a question posed at me...
is fluff?
Wow man. Just wow.

And yet, his vote's on Demon...

Demon's scum too ^_^

I'll take Emp's lynch if you want me to, but next day please get him and make sure DH dies too. Kthx ^_^

[Parama]

In light of VCA, yes.
Still want you dead, though.

Cool. For a second, I was going to vote you.

If I am today's lynch, leave Parama alone, please.

I...still think he's town regardless?

*Emp claims*

I'm a Cop. Calcifer and Parama are scum.

Both Western, then?

You are an autolynch if they don't flip mafia, or if they flip godfather.

Unvote, Vote: Parama

Nacho and Parama bussed EPM to the death. So, in lieu of VCA, let's look for eastern connections with other folk.

He can see right through your shenanigans is why.
I don't believe your cop claim because
1. I'm not scum
2. Calc isn't scum
3. DH is scum

k

Translation: "Shit, Western Mafia is fucked now, fuck"

Hello DH-Emp scumteam. I don't see a sudden 180 based on a cop claim that came really later after daystart and with 2 guilties (2!! wow! If he had one yesterday, why didn't he claim? If he had 2 at daystart, with 3 scum dead, why didn't he leap for joy?!?!?!)

This is pretty obvious, guys. If you let these scum coast to victory by playing "sheep the cop" then I swear I will wring your necks postgame.

[Parama]

EBWOP: I mean, look at the timing.
1. People start hopping on a DH wagon
2. Empking claims when DH seems to be in actual danger of a lynch
3. Empking tries to push the lynch on the person who started the goddamn DH wagon

[Parama]

Notes to self/idiotown: 4 votes on DH when Emp claimed. Emp didn't even vote in his post when he claimed 2 guilties.

[Parama]

Oh, and. VT here. I'm probably not going to even post again unless you guys get your heads out of your rear ends, stop being morons, and start piecing these obvious clues together. See y'all postgame~

[Empking]

Parama:
1.You do not claim with one guilty.
2. I did jump for joy.
3. I was gunning for getting night killed hoping that people would realize who I targetted.
4. I was already voting Calc.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm so sorry for your loss, Parama. So much time wasted writing that.

Empking fake claim as Cop and me associating myself with him, assuming that we're buddies (which would mean we're Western Mafia) would auto-out us, therefore automatically killing Western Mafia. So the motivation behind that is....?

Yeah, non-existent! Correct.

But it's okay. You're flailing scum. Shhh....shhh...I know...death is scary. It'll all be over soon.