1116 - Literally Anything uPick

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You opposing a theoretical bandwagon stage (I go for a RVS-Bandwagon stage hybrid myself) doesn't strike me as all that relevant in terms of understanding why things matter to me (or why I claim a thing matters).

[StrangerCoug]

It just struck me as odd. I'm having a hard time telling if it is scummy or not, hence the probe into it. (I'm leaning towards it not being scummy, though.)

[Framm 18]

VOTE: Ghostlin

For having a cool avatar.

[Ghostlin]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

[Plum]

Does it necessarily, Ghost? What do you think of CES now?

[Ghostlin]

Does it necessarily, Ghost? What do you think of CES now?

I think he cares too much about people not wagonning, which concerns me because we've got zero information to build cases on. What do we expect people to defend their behavior with?

[Zodiark13]

Vote: Framm 18

Blurry pictures of wolves are not cool.

[VasudeVa]

Vote Count 1.1

.[/size]

Players still alive and voting!

AurorousVox [L-7]
PowerRox93 [L-6] -Zang
Zodiark13 [L-7]
Chronopie [L-6] - Plum
AntB [L-6] - StrangerCoug,
Ghostlin [L-6] - Framm 18
Plum [L-7]
Zang [L-6] - AurorusVox,
Framm 18 [L-6] - Zodiark13
StrangerCoug [L-6] - PowerRox93
Cogito Ergo Sum [L-6] - Ghostlin
Doombunny9 [L-6] - Leo

Leo [L-4]- Chronopie, Doombunny9, Cogito Ergo Sum

Not Voting: AntB

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to Lynch

D1's Deadline is at Feb 21, 2010. The countdown can be viewed here

[Powerrox93]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question.

I'm thirding it.

[Chronopie]

So, which of Doombunny and CES are the double voter? or is it a VC mistake?

[Doombunny9]

Vote: Framm 18

Blurry pictures of wolves are not cool.

Framm has a disturbing lack of blurry wolf pictures...

Also, I'm going to fourth the question even though it seems like he's trying to move us out of the RVS which is worth brownie points in my book.

So, which of Doombunny and CES are the double voter? or is it a VC mistake?

Must be CES or a mistake unless I'm a double voter and wasn't told of it

[VasudeVa]

VC has been fixed

[AurorusVox]

Vote: Framm 18

Blurry pictures of wolves are not cool.

Framm has a disturbing lack of blurry wolf pictures...

I second this.

Also, I'm going to fourth the question even though it seems like he's trying to move us out of the RVS which is worth brownie points in my book.

So you see the town motivation behind it, but you want to ask what the motivation behind it is?
Do you think Leo @L-4 is goodthings atm?

Interested to see what Leo has to say about his wagon.

[Doombunny9]

So you see the town motivation behind it, but you want to ask what the motivation behind it is?

I can see the motivation in making attempts to scumhunt as early as possible to end the RVS. What I can't see is why he would choose someone for avoiding wagons rather than anything else.

Do you think Leo @L-4 is goodthings atm?

I don't really care atm. Its a RVS wagon and if it gets too large I'll gladly take my vote off.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

I consider the point of view you propound to be antithetical to the town's interests. The RVS holds very little value if we intentionally take it less seriously or restrict what's allowed go in there. And bandwagonning is nearly always pro-town.

[AntB]

VOTE: AurousVox lemony makes me eat my face...

[AurorusVox]

^No comment on bandwagongate?

[Ghostlin]

Were you aware that Chronopie didn't have a vote on him when you placed that vote, Plum?

Why does this matter?

I second this question. Fact is this is the

random voting stage

, which isn't meant to be entirely serious until someone slips up or says something revealing; getting people to L-4 and L-3 or lower doesn't seem to be the point and works counter to town.

I consider the point of view you propound to be antithetical to the town's interests. The RVS holds very little value if we intentionally take it less seriously or restrict what's allowed go in there. And bandwagonning is nearly always pro-town.

I actually dislike RVS and RQS: things that shouldn't normally be allowed at any part of the game, like building up large wagons without allowing players to really have a coherent defense without providing us analysis or information are allowed to be the norm. Yes, the town's best weapon is in it's lynch, but it's informed lynches that the town wins in, not creating large random bandwagons with practically no information. I think you expect someone to crack with early pressure, but most good players are aware a RVS is that...an RVS.

We're waiting for someone to stir the pot. To say the one thing that gets us interested and votes flowing; and I concede that's important, but I dislike using my most powerful weapon to vote someone that I don't honestly believe is scum for the sake of getting there. I recognize there's probably no better way to do it, but it doesn't mean it has to be my favorite part of the game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I actually dislike RVS and RQS: things that shouldn't normally be allowed at any part of the game, like building up large wagons without allowing players to really have a coherent defense without providing us analysis or information are allowed to be the norm.

See, I think that should be allowed during most parts of the game. Bandwagonning is pro-town, people. The existence of wagons makes posting meaningful.

Yes, the town's best weapon is in it's (sic) lynch, but it's informed lynches that the town wins in, not creating large random bandwagons with practically no information.

You're pushing a false dichotomy here. Bandwagons don't turn into lynches all that easily - you can have large bandwagons without giving up informed lynches (although there is a certain trade-off, sure). And don't pretend seemingly random bandwagons carry no information

I think you expect someone to crack with early pressure, but most good players are aware a RVS is that...an RVS.

That's only true if you look down on RVS like you do. I just think of it as a good moment to get a bandwagon going. What kills early pressure, is this unholy focus on getting informed lynches. You know what hurts town much more than uninformed lynches? Apathy. There's nothing wrong with unjustified votes if can get something going.

[Ghostlin]

I'm not even sure we're not arguing differences in game play here: I feel that creating random wagons without at least a little information encourages sheeping, which is not a protown behavior, which could encourage the quick lynch. I think this necessarily should be avoided whenever possible: "Why'd you vote that?" "Well, everyone else was doing it and we were supposed to be wagoning."

Forcing reasons, in my humble point of view, forces scum to talk. And think. I don't believe in inertia for the sake of inertia, is what I guess I'm saying. Yes, an early wagon gets folks talking; but I wouldn't support it beyond this phase of the game.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: On apathy: Yes, the RVS stage is a place to be random and silly, which can get many folks into the game. There are other folks who want to sit down, give analysis on what people have said pursuant to finding scum. For folks who don't mind the social interaction and being witty and just using it as an icebreaker before we get into the serious part, it's a fun part of the game. For folks who like to analyze bandwagons, what folks said about who's currently the scum favorite and figure out crap logic, it can be a tedious part of the game, due to the attitude that nothing really can be taken seriously that's been in affected in most games. ("Well...that doesn't count. That's RVS.")

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I'm not even sure we're not arguing differences in game play here: I feel that creating random wagons without at least a little information encourages sheeping, which is not a protown behavior, which could encourage the quick lynch.

The quicklynch is just a boogeyman.

I think this necessarily should be avoided whenever possible: "Why'd you vote that?" "Well, everyone else was doing it and we were supposed to be wagoning."

You just have to ask different questions. It's not that hard.

For folks who like to analyze bandwagons, what folks said about who's currently the scum favorite and figure out crap logic, it can be a tedious part of the game, due to the attitude that nothing really can be taken seriously that's been in affected in most games. ("Well...that doesn't count. That's RVS.")

That attitude is misplaced.

[Doombunny9]

I understand that its still early in the game and all but is this back and forth really helping? You can debate about whether or not bandwagons and the RVS is helpful all you want but its not going to catch us any scum.

My current reads (Which I admit are weak, but that's to be expected) are on ghost who is more or less the one that brought up this sidetracking debate and is definitely fueling it. For example:

I feel that creating random wagons without at least a little information encourages sheeping, which is not a protown behavior, which could encourage the quick lynch.

Woah, woah, woah... Are you really concerned about someone being quicklynched this early in the game? This is either an extreme over-reaction to the Leo wagon (Unlikely) or just pointless discussion (More likely).

Other than that, Ghost seems to be trying to extend the RVS:

I think you expect someone to crack with early pressure, but most good players are aware a RVS is that...an RVS.

We're waiting for someone to stir the pot. To say the one thing that gets us interested and votes flowing; and I concede that's important, but I dislike using my most powerful weapon to vote someone that I don't honestly believe is scum for the sake of getting there. I recognize there's probably no better way to do it, but it doesn't mean it has to be my favorite part of the game.

So you're waiting for someone to just say something scummy... But don't want to pressure anybody into doing anything? There are a few problems with this: First of all, if you're just planning on waiting for someone to slip up, no one ever will. What do you expect to happen? Someone to announce that they're town? Pressure and early discussion is one of the best ways to kick up scumhunting early on and to get town out of the RVS. By just sitting there and waiting for other people to slip up on their own, you're just unnecessarily lengthening the RVS.

Unvote, Vote: Ghost

It's srs-ness time everybody!

[Leo]

Leo shrugs indifference at AurorusVox's question.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Fake post restriction is fake.